First Time WS#5 - Come on in, it's a great time to start

Can I freak out with you guys! I have germination in 3 of my containers! ACK! I really truly was not expecting this. But, I have to believe that they are coming up when they are supposed to. I have my containers in full shade. We have had temps in the 40s for highs and even some snow and wind and hard freezes at night. The ground is still frozen and they are sprouting right on top. I have Organic Spinach, sweet alyssum, and the siberian wall flower that have germinated. I sowed them pretty thick and not all the seeds are covered, some have pushed their way to the top too, so I can see. No leaves yet, but definite sprouts.

These containers were sown on 1/21/09, so exactly 3 weeks later I see germination.

Also, an interesting note, Wal-mart is selling poppy plants now. We are zone 7 and regularly have temps of 20degrees at night still and they are outside! I guess I just never noticed these things before.

This is the organic spinach. Can you see there are even little frost crystals on some of the sprouts. It is obviously still frozen back there, there is snow on the ground around them.

This message was edited Feb 11, 2009 3:54 PM

This is the sweet alyssum.

There are a couple that look like they are starting to form leaves.

I've sown quite a few seeds over the last few days. I've never done it before and I'm sure there will be many that don't do well, but it's a learning experience.

I'm having a hard time finding seeds for shade though. Everything I have is for full sun. I have no idea what I'm going to do with all this stuff.

You are going to plant some and share some and enjoy all.

And have fun doing it. First time WSing for me, and I'm loving it...

Will be back to edit if it doesn't work out. LOL.... I cannot believe what I'm seeing...

That's good to know. I don't go to the deli's often so this would be a good source for me.

Lisa, I like your little labeling system you've got going on.
I have a brother p-touch. It needs to be refilled though I think. I'll add that on my list to pick up today.

So far I am pretty happy with the labels, I put just the information I need on there to identify stuff from my spreadsheet. Then I am keeping all the sowing and germinating and hopefully flowing details on the spreadsheets.

One thing that I did by accident is set every label to the same length, at 2 inches. So no matter how much I type, one line or two it squishes the text to two inches. I like this because I don't mind the small type, but it is the perfect size for the plastic label sticks I bought. Just enough to stick in the dirt and I can see my label at the top.

:)

Hi! Did other people end up with freezing weather after the thaw? How did the baby sprouts do?

Even tho I'm getting some seeds through a friendly swap I went out and bought seeds today... I can see why swapping works so well! What am I going to do with all these seeds and plants? Terrible dilemma ; )

dlw -- i had that in April `07
the hardy plants did just fine. the tenders... i lost some, took some in for the night, put some in the garage and or covered them with flannel sheets. Most did just fine. Our days were in the 20;s for about 4 days... can't recall the day time temps... but it was winter like, and not like spring.

Well, I have been out of the loop with a son that had major back surgery and trying to catch back up at work from many days lost..... I had hoped to ws some last weekend - but it was in the mid 70's here too and my daughter was in a school pageant so my day was shot - but I am not sure if I have waited to late to start since I am in 7b. Any suggestions? I have several milk jugs and gallon water jugs saved - not sure I have enough for all the seeds I have but at least I have some things.

Is potting soil acceptable or do I need "seed starting medium"? Also, HOW many seeds do you put in a water jug?? I didn't know whether to dump the whole package or just plant a few per container or what? and what do I do with all the extras? Should I plant them in waves (as in different time periods) for the same seeds to see what responds best? At this point, I have so many seeds thanks to the newbies free seeds and the piggy seed swap and the seed coop that I am overwhelmed and don't even know which are annuals and which are perennials ..... although I do know the majority are perennials.

Would appreciate any input. I HOPE to plant some tomorrow...............

Genna

Genna,
I'm in 7b, a newbie, and suffering from seed shock. I was afraid to put my precious seeds outside in the cold. But last month I WS a few jugs, and today I WS about 30 more. I think I am up to 60 containers, with a lot more to go. It was about 45 today, it's 34 right now.

I felt overwhelmed, but I looked up each seed, wrote the info on an index card (Light, Dark, 1/4", Scatter, Just Cover, 1/16", in situ, Hardy, Half Hardy, Annual, Perennial, etc) and put the card with the seed.
Then I sorted them into stacks so I don't accidentally WS a tender guy. I put each group in cooky tins, and put them in the garage frig. Mine are sorted by: Greenhouse, February, March planting dates, depending on suggested days to germination and hardiness. I don't have a clue if this is right or not, but I had to start somewhere!

Today, I took out the Feb group (the Hardy), and pulled out those that I had marked "in situ" and sowed them first., Then I just picked through and started sowing my fav's first.
I'm sure I put too many seeds in the containers, but oh well. I saved a lot of the seeds to start some in the GH.
I used Miracle Grow Potting Mix that I picked up at Costco. I watered them with a bit of H2O2 and Superthrive in the water.

I am afraid of them sprouting too soon, but if they do, I will cover them with a moving blanket. I do have 3 containers of poppies that have sprouted. (Yeah! I'm now officially a mama!)
Good luck! This is a lot of fun. I am always amazed at the miracle of seeds.

Lynn,
Is that a blueberry pie (!!!) you have out there with the WS containers?
Mmmm!

Genna (pretty name, by the way!), did your son's surgery go well? Hope he's recovering speedily. If its still cool enough to require a jacket outside, you're still in time to wintersow. Any decent quality potting soil works well for wintersowing.

Lynn, if you're concerned about seeds germinating too quickly, I'd recommend discontinuing use of H2O2 for wintersown seeds. I find it makes them germinate quicker, which is great for seed started indoors (the quicker they germinate, the less time they have to rot or mold). And the other main reason to use it is to prevent damping off, which is not an issue with wintersown seeds. Looking good there! You'll have more plants than you know what to do with!

Good to see you back Genna. I hope all is well with your son and you are able to relax and enjoy seed planting today! I have kept pretty detailed records of my seed sowing and have WS over 140 containers and will do about 5 more today. That doesn't mean you have to go into all of that detail if it is more stressful than fun for you. I have kept the records so I will know what works for me and what doesn't for following years, but I am thinking if that stresses you out too much at this point, as long as you label what you have sown so you know what it is, just go for it. If some of the seeds are precious to you, you could save some for sowing differently. My list is in an excel spreadsheet and I don't mind e-mailing it to you if you think it would be helpful. I am in zone 8b. With the number of seeds I have done, you would probably have some of the same ones. I figured I would try WSing everything I had just to see if it works. The only one I didn't WS (I think) was heliotrope because I read somewhere that it doesn't do well WSown. So I did my toilet paper roll thing in a window sill and it is doing great. I have over 70 containers that have germinated so far, so I am finally believing what all the experienced folks are saying. This really is easy and effective! I hope to post some pics soon.

Lynn, sounds like you have a good organized system there. I bet it works well. Congrats on the poppies! I have some sprouted, too. I hope they do well here in south Texas.
Tonya

Hello Lynn - Didn't I get my Large leaf maples from you?? I know we have corresponded about something but I haven't dug out my notes on my seeds.....

Thanks Gemini - my son's surgery went well..... a 4 hr procedure! But, he returned to college after 10 days at home (the MINIMUM time the doc would release him to return to school) and he resumed classes on a "as I can tolerate" basis. He has been back about 10 days now and is really doing well. He is even back to driving his car with is a standard! Of course, he doesn't drive it much but I feel like that is a major accomplishment considering it was lower back surgery. He had not been able to drive since Thanksgiving because he was in so much pain!

How many seeds do ya'll recommend putting in a container? Do I just "sew" them almost solid, or put in individual little holes with some space in between each seed? I think I am just overwhelmed because I have so many seeds...........but I am excited ! As far as the weather - last weekend here it was mid 70s then at the early part of the week it was in the 30's now today in the 50s ....it has been a rollercoaster all winter! But the daffodils are blooming here - not at peak yet - but SPRING is on the way!! so I better get busy!!

I think I will start trying to organize some seeds - I definitely want to get some planted today!
Thanks for all the help!
Genna

Thanks Tonya - we cross posted. My son is doing well - as I said above, but it has sure been stressful for me..... more gray hairs for sure. My son laughed at me before surgery and said "Mom - you are NO HELP - you are WAY more nervous than I am!! I told him I would rather be cut on than have HIM cut on..... " I just knew it was going to be a long procedure and that anytime you are working that close to the spinal cord there are a lot of risk factors! It didn't make me feel any better that they put on these special hose and things that velcroed around his legs to "massage" them with air while he was in surgery and in the hospital recovering to prevent blood clots. I know they are good thing, but it just reinforced how many dangers are involved.... But we had lots of friends praying - and lots of DG buddies too - and so when the lady came out 2 hrs into surgery and scared the living daylights out of me telling me he needed a blood transfusion and I HAD to sign this form...... I was THANKFUL to have buddies praying!! Come to find out - he didn't need ANYONE ELSE's blood..... just they filtered the blood that they could capture
of what he lost and gave it back to him. They had failed to get the form signed before surgery and had to have it to give him back his own blood!! Which if she had just said "hey we forgot to get this signed and we need it signed just in case" I would not have panicked so!!

Not sure I will ever catch up .... I stay behind anyway in my life it seems - need about 24 more hrs in every day....but things are beginning to get a little back to normal at home and at work!

Genna

Genna, the answer to your seed question depends on the size of seed and your personal preference. For tiny seeds, I put alot, just kinda scattered them all over the surface. A warning, though. Several of the experienced folks have said they wish they hadn't put so many seeds in their containers, and will sow less this year. I figured I am going to 1 or 2 plant swaps and can trade away any extras that I don't give away. The larger seeds I spaced out and put 8-15 in a milk/water size jug, depending on how big the seed was and how many seeds I had.
Tonya

Genna, we cross posted again! Glad to hear things are going so well for your son, but sorry to hear it was so stressful for you with the transfusion stuff and all. I'll be praying for y'all too.

Tonya

Thanks Tonya! I covet any and all prayers..... my son still has a LONG way to go on catching up at school. He knew when he started college that this would be his WORST (Hardest) semester of his college (this is his Jr year) and so just to make life interesting....we needed to add a major surgery to it !! ^_^ His teachers have been really good to work with him. He attends a private Christian university (on scholarships!) and we are blessed that he is there - I don't think that my professors would have worked with me as well as his have.................. has a ways to go to catch up, but as he regains his strength he is trying.

Thanks again for the info and the prayers! Sounds like I best quit typing and start planting!!

I will send you a dmail if you don't mind and I will take a look at that Excel sheet you have!
THANKS
Genna

Gen, I agree with Tonya, I sow pretty generously with tiny seeds (but remember a pinch of something like poppy seeds can easily be 100). If its something I've WS before, I kinda go by how well they germinated, but if I don't know, I err on the side of caution and sow fairly liberally. Kinda depends on how much seed I have to work with too. Always nice to keep a few back in case of failure or pest or dog or hard freeze or....LOL

LOL..... or ALL of the above! Good idea to keep a few in reserve!!
Thanks!
Genna

Oh, I meant to add for big seeds, like Hollyhocks or 4o'clocks, I'll put up to 25 in a milk jug.

Hi all! I've never winter sowed before but after reading all the wonderful information here I can't wait to give it a try. And thanks Genna for asking about the soil, that was one of my big questions too.

A couple more newb questions. I read somewhere on the forum, don't remember which thread, I've been browsing through so many, about putting coffee filters in the bottom of the containers. Does anyone/everyone do this? I can see how it would help keep the soil from sifting out the holes in the bottom.

How do you remove and seperate the seedlings from each other when it's time to plant? I have visions of a hundred little poppy seedlings in my 2 liter pop bottle and wondering what on earth do I do now? :)

Melanie

Melanie, I've never done the coffee filter thing. The holes I cut are more like a bunch of slits and flaps, so the potting mix doesn't come out much. But with loads of tiny seedlings like poppies, I use the "hunk o' seedlings" (HOS) method of transplanting. Just break off a little (about a square inch) piece of seedlings and soil, and plant it like a single seedling. Some around the edges may not make it, but those undisturbed in the middle will be fine. Poppies don't like transplanting, but tolerate it much better if its done when they're small, like 1 set of true leaves size.

I have drilled holes in the bottoms of all of my containers and I didn't do the coffee filter thing either. I'm having no problem with losing soil. I plan on using the HOS method too.

Hey Genna, this is OT, but the other part of this post isn't so it should be ok! Is your son at Harding? I have a nephew there and 2 daughters at ACU in Abilene.

Sent you the spreadsheet and fogot to give credit the Terese for creating it. I used as many of her listings as I needed and added a bunch more. I like how she set up the spread sheet. Thanks Terese!

>>Thanks Terese!

Welcome.

I've also put it online in that Google Docs thing and i've been adding to it as i "sow along" .

Melanie, I never used the HOS method, never heard of it since a few months ago. I'm going to try it for some seedlings. I think it's not the right way for all seedlings (If I'm wrong, let someone please tell me). I suggest the following (it's the way I work, especially with perennials).
1. you can pick out every seedling you don't need asap, so the number of seedlings you want to grow have a bit more room - they will grow quicker. Leave a bit more seedlings than you want to grow, because some might be killed during transplantation.
2. By the time they are big enough to transplant in pots: make the earth wet. If the earth is not wet enough you will destroy the roots.
3. Gently take out the whole bunch and tear very gently the earth. In most cases the roots will separate without damage.
4. Put them in prepared pots with wet earth.
This method has been always very succesful for me. I seldom loose seedlings.
When I lost seedlings after transplanting, it always had another reason. I used to use very rich earth when I transplanted them in pots, but I found out not all the seedlings like that. When I know the plants need poor soil, I will transplant them in poor soil now.
Jonna

Thanks for the info.... I was outside cutting my water bottles (gal jugs like milk cartons) in half when I realized I wasn't sure if I was supposed to poke holes in the bottom or drill holes or leave it solid. I guess from what I read here, I need to poke holes in for drainage. .... then I know that I hook the two halves together with wire, bread tie, etc...... and leave the lid off .....CORRECT????

How DEEP should I leave the bottom half where the soil will go? I am figuring around 3 - 4 inches - but just guessing.................

No, Tonya, my son is not at Harding. He is at Ouachita Baptist University in Arkadelphia. I have friends whose kids went to Harding and really liked it there. Not sure how large Harding is, but OBU is a relatively small university and just about everyone knows everyone else..... it is a nice environment.

Thanks again for all the help!
Genna

Hello again Genna. I drilled the holes in the bottom of the containers before I cut them in half. They were more stable that way. I cut them at about the halfway mark and left a bit of it uncut (maybe 1/2 to 1") for a hinge. Terese (I think) recommends 4" of soil so wherever you cut it should allow for that much. I used less than 4" in some of my containers, but don't have the experience she does, so we'll see how it works. The holes for drainage are very important. You also do need to leave the lid off the top so rain can get in. We've had such a drought here that I have had to water my containers. I kept some of my containers closed with just a tab of duct tape and others I didn't reconnect at all (per Neal's suggestion) I have decided I like to not use the tape because it saves me time, although I do have to be more careful when I move the containers. Another tip, when putting the soil in the container, premoisten the soil and if you put some soil on top of the seeds, spritz it with a spray bottle. To premoisten the soil, I just but a bunch of soil in a bucket and put some water in to where is stuck together pretty good, but wasn't dripping. These are all tips passed on that I got from others.

So glad your son (and you) like it at OBU. I sounds great.

Here is a pick of containers...

Tonya

Drainage holes are essential. With milk jugs I pierce with a knife and twist to make it big enough. I typically make 4 holes. 2 liter bottles and fruit juice bottles are harder, drilling is the safest bet for those. I use 4" of soil in mine, so I cut the jug just at the handle level, and on only 3 sides so that the lids are hinged on. I cut them off in spring.

Tonya & Gemini raise I point that I have been anxious to query.
4" of soil.
What is the deal on this?

I have been raising seedlings for my vegetable gardens for years, indoors, under lights, usually transplanting them twice before they are set into the garden, and I have never used a pot deeper than 2-1/2 inches (unless I was experimenting with VERY early (say Jan/Feb ) seeding to see what would happen with larger plants.

So, I have been wondering : why do we need (or even want) 4" of soil in a WS container?
That is a lot of soil : especially in a US milk jug or a Euro 5 or 6 litre water bottle.
Do flowers get longer roots than veggies?
Do WS plants in general develop longer roots?
What %-age of plants have 4" root systems before you either transplant or set them out?

I have been drilling all my containers. It's faster and safer. I typically put 6 - 8 holes in the bottom, depending on whether it's a 1.5-litre or a 5/6 or 8-litre jug. I use a larger drill bit for the larger containers. Cut myself too often with gemini's "pierce and twist" method!

Sometimes, when I have transplanted especially large tomato or eggplant plants in the past, I have used "nursery" pots that held something like lavenders and that had really big drainage holes. In that case, USED coffee filters were perfect for keeping the lighter potting soil from escaping while still allowing for bottom watering and good drainage. In "drilled" bottles and jugs, nothing like this should be nescessary, I'd think.

I've found the soil tends to compact some as it freezes and thaws, so I think the 4" is to compensate somewhat. And since the seedlings typically are in the container till they're set out in the garden, it gives room for a good root system. Also helpful in keeping them from drying out quickly.

Ok, gemini, those are valuable answers.

I'm not sure, however, that the soil will compact any more than that in indoors-under-lights containers. In fact, the soil in my raised beds is always "higher" every Spring than it was in the Fall due to freezing & thawing.

Are we really not supposed to transplant WS seeds before setting out? I would think that, just as with indoors-under-lights sowing, one would transplant these seedlings at the 2-4 real-leaf stage. Not saying it is necessary, but I am definitiely thinking that doing so should yield more plants of better quality than HOS methods.

In my experience, almost all pots/containers (even garden soil) dries out from the top down. If the roots have not penetrated below the first, say, 2" of the soil, the extra 2" won't help them if the top dries out. But, I can sort of see this logic, that the store of water in a 4" deep pot would be greater than that in a 2" deep pot, thereby maintaining an overall higher moisture level. But, don't WS gardeners also provide regular water to their seedlings, just as indoor gardeners do?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to fully grasp the need to use so much soil. I find that potting soil that does not use natural peat and that is also properly processed is quite expensive here.

I shoot for at least 3" of potting mix, sometimes 4". Only once did I "pot up" a few echinacea. I knew they would stay rather small for a while and didn't want them to be totally shaded by taller flowers. I used to have an area which I called my "nursery spot" for growing on seedlings, but in the last year or two even that has been planted with too-large plants. I plant my seedlings directly in garden beds from their milk jugs, hos style. No time to pot up hundreds of seedlings.

There is much greater potential for drying out in WSown containers, outside, as compared to inside started seedlings. A little sun on a warm day is all it takes. Just think about how fast an outdoor pot can dry as opposed to a houseplant of a comparable size, indoors under more controlled, constant conditions. A deeper soil depth holds more moisture longer. I find it useful to allow the surface to dry some as seedlings grow, encourages roots to grow downward to get the water. I usually bottom water my containers.

Karen

as for amount of soil... .i've read the 4" for 2 reasons....

1) moisture. I had used shallower containers in `07 and they dry out too fast... you will notice this once the weather warms up.

2) gives the roots 'room to roam' -- healthier roots generally mean healthier plants.

when i do the milk jugs, i pretty much cut where the bottom of the handle is, using the that part [[the bottom of the handle] as my "hinge" ... and that gives me about 3-3.5" of soil. I wouldn't do less than 2-2.5" of soil.

thanks Karen -- we crossed posts.

OK. Excellent explanations. Thank you all!

I find that the root system is crazy in w/s containers. They are almost alien in nature.