I'm going to be starting my veggie seeds indoors this year and I'm trying to figure out what I will need. So, do you know about how many seedlings you can grow under this light fixture? I was looking at getting the light system and tray system on this page:
http://www.dirtworks.net/Grow-Lights.html
Will it be enough for 30-40 seedlings?
Passiflora,
Before you invest in that light system, take a look at a homemade light system (I made my own just like it -- really easy!) that will give house almost 3x the number seedlings in approximately the same space, by going UP -- as many shelves as you may want!
I custom-sized mine to fit in our guest bedroom on a wall beside the bed. I measured the length of the wall (5 ft.) and just had the boards cut (Home Depot) to that length. I used two 1x 12 boards and had them cut to 5ft each. I used the two remaining 12" pieces to stabilize the concrete blocks since the room is carpeted. I can get two 24" seedling trays lengthwise under each of the 48" fluorescent lights. I have two lights on the bottom shelf and two lights under the top shelf. Same space -- more growing room!
And, you can spray paint the cement blocks AND the boards to coordinate and/or blend in with your room decor!
Hope this helps!
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/48/
Linda
This message was edited Dec 9, 2008 12:58 PM
This message was edited Dec 9, 2008 1:00 PM
That's great! Thanks!!
Passiflora07,
P.S. The great part about the shelf system is that it can easily be dismantled during the non-growing season and stored neatly in a closet!
Under a 4ft shop light you can fit 2 standard nursery flats and start 100 seedlings with no problem. Make up a home made one like others say.
BocaBob
gymgirl,
Thank you for the link. I hadn't seen that before, but I've tagged it now. This is way simpler and cheaper than anything else I've seen.
Karen
We have 3 tables, 4' X 12' each in our basement. 2 are double decked. 2 bulb, 4' florescent fixtures are spaced 16" apart, cross ways on the tables. We also use the cheap shop lights, $6 to $10 each. We have been doing this for 20+ years. Just keep the lights close to the top of the plants.
Don't fall for all the stuff about grow lights. Don't need them!
Bernie
What about the bulbs? Do I need the full-spectrum "grow" bulbs made for plants? If not, which bulb is best?
Cool whites work good. Less than $2 each.
I found this thread I started years ago.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/371007/
Bernie
Very timely! We've just been thinking about how to do this.
Thanks.
Frank
Hello to all interested in growing under lights,
We are hand-scale commercial growers of flowers and vegetables and also vegetable plugs for other growers at our farmers market. We have abandoned all ideas of growing under artificial light. The problem is not enough light, spindly seedlings. If the lights are close enough to the trays for adequate light the soil cooks and drys out even under 'cool' fluorescent lights.
In the corner of our family room we have plastic 'greenhouse' structures similar to the ones shown in the link but much larger, of course. We can start 20 or more standard 10 x 20 inch trays at a time. The lights have been discarded and they are now 'germination chambers' and I can tell you that our system works well enough that we can compete with commercial plug growers in the open market. Humidity is best if the germinator is full of trays or trays with water in them are mixed in. Keep the plastic tent zipped up.
As the name 'germination chamber' implies, it is just used for sprouting the seeds. Flats are checked daily, sometimes twice daily, and moved to an outdoor unheated greenhouse where they can get enough light right from the start.
It's more than a happy coincidence that most seeds sprout best at room temperatures preferred by human beings. Trays will either be too hot or too dry or light deprived under artificials.
You can find more information on our growing practices at http://www.wholesystemsag.org.
Good growing to all
John Warner, near Fresno, CA
Hand-scale market grower since 1996
John,
How early in the year are you starting these seed flats? For an indoor germination chamber, how much light is needed? My house is rather dark inside because most of the windows are shaded by the front and back decks. I would probably have to have some kind of extra light even for just germination.
Also, what temp is needed in the unheated greenhouse to grow the plants successfully? I don't have a greenhouse, but I've been thinking of putting a sort of hoop house over a couple of my veggie beds using PVC pipe and greenhouse plastic as a possible way to get a start on cool weather veggies.
I love the song on your link as I remember singing it when I was a kid.
Karen
Hello Karen,
Thanks for your interest. We start seed flats the year around here in USDA Zone 9--the coldest area that can still accommodate citrus. But, as you know, there are warm and cool season crops and this is cool season time. In the vegetable world these include the brassicas [cabbage, cauliflower, kale, etc] and most of the root and leaf crops. Most of these can be set out well before the last frost and, here anyway, going into winter. With warm-season crops it is, for the most part, the fruit part of the plant that's eaten [corn, tomatoes, peppers, squash, etc and these can take no frost at all. It takes 4 to 8 weeks to grow plants ready to set out.
No light at all is required for sprouting the seeds. In the case of flowers, a few species require light for sprouting, but I know of no vegetables that require light to germinate. Best temperature for sprouting is room temperature but once sprouted many cool season crops will grow slowly, but well, in an unheated hoophouse even when night temperatures drop, at times, into the twenties. We started off with plastic covered pvc hoops, [10 feet long over a 5 foot wide bed] with the plastic held down with sand bags. It worked well but, of course, the plastic needs pulling up for watering which is a regular pain.
I want to emphasize for everyone that flats need to be moved into the light at the very first sign of sprouting. This makes it difficult to seed different vegetables in the same flat since germination times differ. However, plug flats can be cut up to accommodate different vegetables. Plug flats are available from a number of catalog suppliers--I just noticed some today while thumbing through Johnny's [Selected Seeds] catalog.
Thanks for liking the Farmer Song.
John Warner, www.wholesystemsag.org
You should see what a greenhouse looks like when a furnace malfunctions & you open the door in the morning and all is black.
We have quit growing annuals because fuel is so expensive now. We used to have 3 greenhouses full & sold most before Home Depot, Wal-Mart & others showed up. People love Wally World so let them all plant the simple plants from there.
I am now doing perennials that are not common. They don't require the heat that annuals do here.
My gardens are mostly perennials, so no seeding needed. Bare spots get filled with annuals if needed. Usually get a bunch of plants at spring Round Ups that need a place in my beds.
I will be killing off some more grass this spring to make room.
Bernie
Hi John,
Thanks for the info. My main problem with starting seeds or growing anything inside is my five cats. I have three orchid plants I bring into my computer room for the winter, otherwise everything has to survive outside covered with frost cloth and greenhouse plastic.
I have a spare bedroom that I can shut the cats out of and would like to use it for getting a jump start on cool weather veggies in the spring. I have not tried using grow lights for a couple of reasons. The main one being that I would probably forget to water them often enough. However, just getting them sprouted would probably be manageable, especially if I didn't have to provide good light.
Yep, the PVC hoops covered with plastic and held down with bricks is what I had in mind. I can see that it would be too much trouble for an operation the size of yours, but it should be adequate for me. I'm glad to hear that the cool weather veggies will do okay with temps down into the 20s. We do get temps down into the low 20s or high teens several times during a winter. Our last frost date is April 15th. After germination, could I just move the flats into the hoop house until they are transplant size and then set them out in an uncovered bed? Would the hoop house protect tomato and pepper plants enough to get a head start on them?
Hi CountryGardens,
I've found that people here just do not plant a large variety. They plant impatiens in the spring and pansies in the fall; azaleas and crepe myrtles for shrubs and trees. They buy Boston ferns in hanging baskets for the summer and potted chrysanthemums in the fall. I suspect this was the norm long before HD, Wally World, and Lowe's came along. After I moved here, I was stunned at the lack of choice in the nurseries, both big box and local, which is really too bad.
Karen
I'm talking about varieties. There are many new & exciting types of each plant. It's a shame all the big boxes offer are the real common things or the so called popular ones like Wave Petunias. There are much nicer spreading petunias around. Same for impatiens, same old varieties. Mostly they have the ones that the seed is cheap for because they don't pay the growers a good price.
I wouldn't want to grow at the prices they pay. Yes, the big boxes tell the growers how much they will get payed, not what the grower wants to be paid.
Karen asked,
"Would the hoop house protect tomato and pepper plants enough to get a head start on them?"
Indeed it will. On a clear night it's worth 10F but if it's foggy or overcast it makes little difference. This is because the atmosphere its self is doing what the plastic on the hoop house is doing: reflecting the earth's warmth back down.
John, www.wholesystemsag.org
Here, on a cold night it will be as cold or colder inside, especially if it is below freezing.
CountryGardens,
I understand what you're saying about the varieties. I used to buy Cascading petunias for a very reasonable price, and they grew beautifully. Now they are all "wave" petunias at a much higher price because of promotion. I'm not sure that if more varieties were offered, people here would buy them, though. As a group, Alabamans are not adventurous bunch.
I know that the big boxes control the prices and make it very difficult on the growers. Unfortunately, the local nurseries here (all 3 of them) carry even fewer varieties than the big boxes, so it's no use to try to buy from them either. I rarely buy plants, but when I do I usually I buy them over the internet. A woman who owns one of the local nurseries had told me that she would/could order special items for me. Okay, so I took her a list. She called me back and told me that her wholesaler didn't carry any of those plants. Did she ask the wholesaler if they could be obtained? No. They weren't on his list so that ended that.
John,
Yes, we rarely have temps below freezing on overcast nights -- it's the clear ones that get COLD. I am definitely making my hoop house this spring. I think 10 degrees extra in March or early April will be enough. This is my first year trying greenhouse plastic (6 mil) over some of my flower beds. So far, at least, it seems to be working. Tonight the forecast low is 31, which is at the airport. Here up in the boonies and at a higher elevation it will be about 26 degrees. We've already had more frosts and freezes than we usually get all winter.
Thanks for the info. I like your philosophy and have bookmarked your site so I can read the rest of it. My soil is hard, red clay. It cannot be dug up by hand. My 23-year-old, 6'4" grandson could not dig it up with a pick axe. So, I'm gradually covering the grass with several layers of cardboard in the fall, then collecting bags of leaves that folks put out to the curb. Because I lack "greens" for this, I got a bag of alfalfa pellets to use in between the brown layers. I did this last year and found that by spring it had all composted down into a very nice bed for my veggies. This year I'm collecting leaves to refill the old beds and making a new bed about 30'x40'. I get coffee grounds three times a week from a local coffee house. Where I had no worms at all before, I now have lots of earthworms.
Karen
Is that the same red clay I saw at Prizer Point in KY when I was down there this fall for Round Up ? That was terrible looking stuff.
We have black loam. In places it's so deep you can't find the sub soil. We had carrots 20" long & straight as an arrow.
Earthworms are plentiful here. Some mornings any bare area is covered with their little mounds. We have night crawlers & small angle worms. (Both great for fishing!). The crawlers are the ones that make the mounds. Angle worms are in the soil near the top. Every time you dig in damp soil you see them.
Bring your truck & take a load of black soil home with you!
Bernie
Hi Bernie,
Can't say, as I've not been to KY. I know it's far worse than the red clay soil my grandma had in the MO Ozarks. When it rains, the red clay gets all gooey and slick on top. When it is dry, it is just like concrete. It would be perfect if we wanted to make pottery or bricks -- but we don't. LOL. There is one small patch of sandy soil on the very edge of the property, outside the house fence. I grew nice sweet potatoes there last summer. I tried melons and such as well, but they did poorly. I suppose if I were determined enough and young enough, I might be able to amend this soil. But it would take years and an unbelievable amount of work. The only feasible solution is raised beds and lasagna beds.
You are really lucky to have such good soil. If I ever get to MN, I'll bring a truck!
Karen
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.
To get back to the seed starting/grow light discussion, I have 4 possible places to start seeds indoors: garage w/o window, sunroom, walk-in basement storage closet w/small window, basement bedroom w/o window. We have 2 indoor cats who will eat any plant in sight (I gave up on houseplants some time ago), so these 4 locations are the only places they don't have access to.
I'm in southwest Ohio, zone 6. Our last frost date is May 12. If I start seeds inside, which of these 4 locations sound best, and do I need any lights? I know from what John said that I don't need light to germinate the seeds, but once they show at the surface, I don't really want to have to move them to a different room (garage & basement bedroom have no light unless I use a grow light).
It's the beginning of January, and I was outside today working on a couple of garden beds--it was 40 F today, and it felt great to be out there working. I want to start seeds NOW, but I can't, of course...LOL.
Another question...I have at least a couple of seed starting trays. They haven't been used in a couple of years. What is the best way to clean them? Do I have to use bleach, etc.. or will rinsing them, or using soap and water be OK?
passiflora - Here's what I did last year, and it worked great.
I built a simple frame to hang three 2-bulb shop lights over a bench in my workshop, and I put the lights on a timer to burn 16 hours a day. The shop lights and the timer were pretty inexpensive at Lowe's.
We close off the heater vents in my workshop, which is part of our garage, so in winter it stays about 60 degrees in there. I think the cool temp helps grow sturdy plants, and I know you're in Florida, but I'd say raise your seedlings in the coolest room you have.
I started out by planting seeds in plastic egg cartons, then transplanted to seedling flats, then finally to 12-oz. plastic cups. I raised over 100 tomato, pepper, and tomatillo seedlings at once this way, and didn't lose any. I'll be planting again in this same rig about March 1.
Ozark,
That's a pretty good hook-up. Am I counting 4 standard seed trays and the red cups?
Gymgirl - Yep, 4 trays that hold eighteen 3" x 3" square inserts each, plus a few plastic cups at the end.
That pic was taken at the second transplant stage, and some of the inserts held two plants. I ended up transplanting tomatoes and tomatillos again into plastic cups with one plant each - they got bigger than I wanted, and I'll plant those two weeks later this year. The pepper plants were just the right size, though.
Here's a "hardening off" picture taken about 2 1/2 weeks after the other photo. I followed what Carolyn said to do in her seed-starting thread in the Tomato Forum and raised some real good seedlings with no problems at all.
Karen
I am in zone 8 so this may not work everywhere .
One way to help out on the expense of the new petunias is to get at least one of them to over winter by cutting them back in the summer and the new growth survives the winter or root some cuttings in the fall. Then in Feburary or the rest of the spring /summer for that manner you root cuttings that will supply all your needs.
I started rooting them in December this year using cloches and some of them already have roots. I used two liter drink bottles and the clear plastic cake covers that you get from the bakery for the cloches.
Some varieties are patented and should not be propagated. Don't want to get pulled over by the plant police. LOL
I think as long as you don't sell them, you are okay.
Ozark,
Those are some good looking seedlings! Great job!
familyman2004,
Thanks for the advice on cuttings/wintering over of petunias. I will give that a shot. I am so sorry I cannot find the old cascading ones as they grew so nicely. But when it comes to plants and suppliers they only have the new stuff so they can charge more. The Wave ones are patented, and the cascade ones are not.
I doubt the plant police can get past my daughter's five dogs, so I'm not worried on that point. LOL.
Karen
Karen;
I have not experienced / grown the cascading petunias. How do they compare with the wave petunias which I think are awesome. They (waves )also overwinter and propagate very easily and you can save and grow the seeds if you are into that. I started my original ones from seed.
I will add a link on saving and starting waves from seed or copy and paste.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/propagation_seed_starting/109549
Concerning your earlier comments about lack of variety; I think I will have to breakdown and order and start more of the stuff from seed that I find interesting. I don't mind starting somethings from seed but buying plants is so much easier and faster.
familyman2004,
My personal opinion that is they are basically the same, but someone tweaked the cascade ones just enough to get a patent, called them "Wave", and then heavy advertising took care of the rest.
Seeds for the cascade petunias can be purchased in a number of colors and both in single and fully double blooms, but I haven't seen the plants for sale in years. They were sold mostly for hanging baskets since they will spread 2-3 feet. I used them as kind of a ground cover around my rose bushes. They filled in the entire area very quickly. I
Did I mention I don't do seeds very well? Especially the teeny tiny ones?
Karen
