Some thoughts for Byron

Well, Byron, you dragged me over to this forum. I see that Dave has closed down the MF/Vam forums, as well he should.
But, I cannot let those two forums slip into never-never land without expressing a few thoughts.

You see, Byron, there are no absolutes in the gardening/ agriculture fields. I am delighted that Vam/MF cultures have been bottled and are being trialed by gardeners. I leave to those experts the nitty gritty details of figuring out how they will work and react with various minerals in the soil.

Seldom mentioned is that there is a new urgency in agricultural research today. Let's look at some of them:

1. Finally the fact that The Silent Spring is almost here. We may or may not agree with the way scientists are developing plant material to resist insect/disease problems. But, as more and more chemicals are banned by the Feds effective ways to control growing problems will be explored. If a natural product such as some type of Vam/MF can be used to innoculate the soil and grow a healthier, more productive and disease resistant crop plant, then I think we should all jump on the bandwagon and experiment with it.

2. Here in this country we are not aware of the growing problems in other countries. Populations are rising rapidly and those countries where it is happening are scrambling to increase their capability to feed the throngs. We must think globally these days when discussing agriculture. One of our friends is in charge of making recommendations to the World Bank as to which countries should receive loans. Because he is traveling throughout the world and working first hand with foreign governments he has relayed to us the problems of growing food for highly populated countries with shrinking agricultural lands. Our son is also working in this field.

Agriculture is facing a new challenge. How to grow disease/insect resistant, more productive plant material in less space with less chemicals.

We as gardeners have an obligation to recognize that many avenues will be explored to reach this goal. Some may prove to be perfect for our individual soils. And, of course, the more organic the better. Bless this computer age and people such as Dave who allow us to exchange ideas, information and experiments. No one posting here has all the answers. But, if we put our collective heads together just maybe we can come up with some exciting ideas to trial. Let's get on with it!

Nandina, well said. I watched those other two threads with dismay because of the hostility, but also because of the lack of openness on both "sides" and the frightening fact that if we don't start using what is available to us through nature, we will end up with unnatural food stuffs and no choices.

I applaud Dave's willingness to put up with all of us and our individuality, but independence of mind and spirit are valuable only as far as you are willing to be open to others and meet them on that level plain where we can learn from each other.

Please excuse my questions if they seem terribly fundamental. I'm still getting my arms around the basic aspects of this subject. I would like to experiment with Ruth Stout's method for vegetable gardening, starting this year.

1. I'm wondering if crop rotation becomes more or less important if you follow this method and continue to add mulch and compost and disturb the soil as little as possible?

2. What about the use of cover crops? Can you use a green cover crop and still maintain VAM in your soil, or will digging under the cover crop cause too much disturbance to the top layers of soil?

Thanks, Nandina for putting so many things into a meaningful context. I spent 11 years in ag development in S.American and understand how misapplication of modern agriculture can worsen indigenous agrarian systems and resource bases.

Over much of human experience, horticulture drove the knowledge and technique engine, bringing improved crop varieties, systems of irrigation, and other innovations. We forget that the current agricultural paradigm is really only a bit over 100 years old out of maybe 100,000 years of human interactions with the plant and animal world. Grain-based agriculture (in contrast of food horticulture) began at several places between 10,000 and 8,000 years ago. Now these few grain crop dominate agriculture, even dominates meat production.

Go_Vols,

You should continue rotation because each crop also draws a specific assortment of nutrients. By rotating crops the soil is not excessively drawn down in a specific spot. In a vibrant soil I rather doubt lack of rotation in a Ruth Stout system would cause nutrient imbalances but there is always soil-borne disease problems.

You don't have to dig under green manure, just chop and add additional mulch to cover. Macroorganisms and microbes will quickly reduce the green materials.

Go vols,
As I have time I want to try and help you to understand just what the heck has been under discussion here. It really wandered off track. Perhaps some may find my approach too simplistic, but I do not know any other way to explain it.

Now, to your veggie garden. Yes, you should rotate crops every year.

Forget about MF/Vam in the vegetable garden. As you till/scratch/layer available leaves and garden debris into the soil it will break down and enrich the soil with various minerals, etc. In the process certain strains of soil fungus may develop that aid the growth of oak trees, not your tomatoes. When you sow a cover crop such as annual rye and turn it under, the MF that might develop could be specific to plants in the grass family but not to your strawberries. Once you find a method of vegetable gardening that feeds the family and the neighborhood then it is right for you.

Again, discussing the veggie garden there are three basic methods (with some variations) to enrich and prepare the garden for planting: deep tilling, light tilling and the Stout/Interbay type methods. Each gardener has to decide which method grows the most productive veggies in his soils and climate. When the technology comes along, as it has now, which says....if you innoculate your rhubarb with this certain strain of MF it will be more productive....then give it a try. You will be the final judge as to how the product works, again in your given soil and climate.

More to come.....

Nandina

Sorry those 2 followed me here. I really would have enjoyed learning more.

Marsh as a side note, found an article about the Inca's
They grew the same crops in the same place for over 1,000 years. I believe in crop rotation IF you are only feeding your soil chemical fertilizers. I have grown tomatos in the same spot for over 30 years, The soil gets compost or composted manure every year. I have had a very little early blight but never enough to wipe out a plant. Thats it.


As a real achiever Fidel Castro might recieve a Nobel Peace Prize because he is now feeding his country with 100%organic means. I only read a small portion of this, maybe some folks are still straving I don't know..


Jerry Baker has an expression that I feel fits the best..

"If it works, use it: if it don't, try something else."
That simple..

Thanks Dave for putting up with as much as you did..

I asked Nandina here because of her postings elsewhere. She does not appear to be pushing a product, but has a good background with the topic and I felt would approach the topic with realisim.

I feel that there is something between the Hype of Thomas
and the Agi school info.

Just wanted to learn a little more.

Really sorry for the disruption here, It's out of my controls.

Byron



This message was edited Sunday, Sep 9th 9:01 AM

Hi, Byron,

Comments above remind me of a long ago coversation with Will Widmere, a famous grape grower and vintner. His family came through the gates of Ellis Island from Germany in the late 1800's with carefully packed grape scions and a dream. They settled in the Finger Lakes District of Western NY. He was the first to recognize that this area had the potential to become a thriving grape growing/wine industry.

When I asked why he had chosen the Finger Lakes region his answer was brief. It has mostly southern facing slopes for the sun to ripen the grapes. The area winters were tempered by lakes. And, he was looking for an area where the "wild grapes poured from the tree tops".

Let's take time out here for a short quiz. The answers should help everyone who is confused by this MF/VAM discussion to have a better grasp of the subject.

Question #1 -Why was vintner Will Widmere searching for land to grow grapes where the "wild grapes poured from the trees tops"?

Question #2 -Byron, you point out that the Incas grew the same crops in the same place for a 1000 years. Why were they able to do this?

More later....I'm counting on you to supply the answers to the quiz.

#1 If Will just used common sense, and observed that wild grape did well there then his should to too.


#2 Good soil mangement is the key to great crops.
They didn't have Dow/DuPount Chemical to lead them astray..

Byron

Byron,

Both your answers are correct, but not complete. What more can you add that would relate to the subject under discussion?

Hmpf. I am the Cal Coolidge type. Min. Verbage.

If one understands something about mom natures plants, you
can tell the nature of the soil just by looking at the plants and weeds that grow there. IE Pine trees usually mean dry acidic soil. He saw wild grape a tree top level level. Meant the soil was exactly right for grapes. No winter kill and no major diseases. Ideal situ for his grapes..


In the 40's and 50's Dow/Dupont convinced crop growers that all they need to add was NPK. Yup this works until all the other nutrients are also gone. No tilth left to hold the soil and feed the soil bacteria. Farmers are now
seeing the effect of neglected soils with dust bowels, loss of crop because the soil can not longer hold moisture
or just dries up and blows away. Crop rotation works to some degree but I don't feel that it's really enough for the soil to continue having good crops.

Cover crops might work in some area's, In a 90 day growing season it is not feasable.


I don't have the background for world crops, But I really have my doubts that RUR, BT and Terminator seeds are the answers either. Too many unanswered questions.


For the home gardener, I feel that feed the soil is the best answer, compost and composted manures are so much better then chem fertilizers..


Byron

Those wild grapes were the best ecotypes Mother Nature could develop for those locations. I suspect the vintners grafted the European scions on the best wild stock they found.

The Inca, just as the local today, had varieties specific to specific sites. Land tenure was highly fragmented with each village planting varieties known to do best on specific slopes and elevations. But I do know they did practice a modified rotation employing potatoes, quinoa, oca, yacon, machu, maize and minor crops. Traditional field patterns were marked by stone fencing which on steeper slopes became terraces. Apparently soil was carried up to fill the terraces and in drier valleys elaborate canal systems irrigated the terraces. Soil was worked with a "foot plow", a tool to open soil, not overly work it. Current peasant farmer still use the tool, now with a metal blade.

Do I pass, teacher? [grin] -- I cheated, having spent some months working with the International Potato Center out of Arequipa, Peru.

Since the 16th century, a lot of european crops have been introduced, land tenure changed, traditional terraced horticulture partly abandoned, and sheep and cattle displacing llama, vicuna and alpaca.

Let's see if I can condense many thoughts into as few words as possible.

Now, returning to the questions I asked....

Question 1 -It was recognized early on by humans as they explored the world that plants native to a region thrived. As agricultural practices developed, and soil enrichment techniques evolved it was also noticed that a native plant thrived with minimal attention. Will Widmere knew this through observation, just as Byron said. But, it was not until the late 1930-40 time period that science began to ask, why? Through studies the idea of various beneficial fungi in the soil was introduced and named. And the conclusion was reached that these fungi had developed in a region over the eons by a succession of plant material that had lived and died littering the soil's surface and decaying in a process we can call 'cold composting'. That is the simple explanation, much more is involved. In other words, the plants were growing their own nutrients. So, the early agriculturists searched for areas where the native food plants grew best and cultivated those crops.

When we decided to move south I was in an unfamiliar growing situation. Within six weeks I knew something was wrong. Soil and well water tests revealed soil that was devoid of nutrition and well water that was a heatbeat away from being distilled water. I was stunned! For I could plant an azalea or holly with no soil additives, water them with water that contained nothing and they would thrive. That was impossible! Then I remembered that they were native to the area. They, along with other native plants had manufacture their own beneficial fungus which allowed them to grow well in a fairly hostile environment. Other plant material, through time, may or may not have developed a dependency on the fungi which has developed in soils in a given area. All this is now under study as ways have been found to bottle the elusive VAM/Mycorrizal fungi for commercial distribution.

So, the bottom line is that enriching the soil with composted materials is a good practice. Hot composting has its place and certainly replenishes soils. And, in searching the web one will find articles on introducing MF into hot compost. But, more and more attention is being paid to cold composting where a few inches of vegetative material is laid on the soil's surface and this allows MF to develop through decomposition. Some of it may be useful to the plants you are are trying to grow, some may not.

In answer to something raised in the defunct discussions...I am aware that MF is found 20" or more in the soil depth. But, it develops best in the upper 3-4" of soil.

Will tackle Question #2....later.

OK when you come back,

If you cold compost for MF, can one see it? or must you
have additional visual aids?

In the Dow fertlizer, I would also like to add that Sterns
(now Scotts) made it ever worse with the real high numbered fertilizers.

Byron

Byron,
In answer to your questions. Re #1 the answer is that sometimes when you turn over the duff on a forest floor tiny, thin, white threads can be seen. Or, the MF fungi may not be visible except under a micoscope. They are more readily and often seen when one digs around the feeder roots of a plant.

Re#2. Here I would say that every gardener has to do some experimenting. I have. My thoughts at the moment tend to lean toward the idea that commercial fertilizers may, over the years, reduce the ability of plant material to absorb vital nutrients and minerals. I am unable to prove that. But, I find my gardens to be more productive when I use natural ammendments such as compost, fish meal, manures, etc.

Back to the second question I asked. And, thanks, Marsh for posting your info on Inca farming.

The Incas were able to farm the same area for a thousand years because of good soil management and irrigation. But, that civilization began when a few hunter-gatherers out exploring found native food plants that were to their liking and they decided to set up housekeeping. The foods that Marsh mentioned were all growing in the area. And, by observation and selection over the years the Incas developed agricultural produce from the local native stock on soils that had evolved and been enriched in turn by the native plants. The symbiotic relationship between plants and soil was present and along with soil enrichment from animals grazing on the same plant material the food plants were able to thrive and replenish themselves.

Let me quickly note that in this modern world archeology has a new tool. Let's suppose that you are tracing the route of a certain tribe. You know from excavating sites what that tribe ate and what seeds it carried with it as it traveled. You can go to a company in Marsh's back yard named CSRI. Once you provide them with the information on where your last dig took place and the seed crops the tribe ate they can plug this information into their computers which have been loaded with soil, weather, native plant materials information from all over the world. In a short period of time you will have data which pin points the optimum areas for growth of those particular plants. And, suggestions for where to dig next in your search for the route taken by the migrating tribe.

The same technology is used by countries with rapid growth and shinking agricultural land. With computer knowlege they are able to locate the most perfect growing conditions for any type of food crop. This technology is heavily used by the Pacific rim countries and India.

This diatribe has gotten a bit long winded. But in a few days I will begin Part 2, if it is of any interest. There are some historical happenings in the 1940's which relate to this discussion.

very interesting please continue
dave 719

In #2, Excessive applications of fertilizers, Not once but 3 times, In my County Agents office, discussing a soil
sample with them person in front of me.. "You have applied way to much Miricale Grow, your soil is now salt saturated,
It will probably 3 to 5 years before you can have a crop"

~~Just few of hundreds that I know about. A guy on GW couldn't even grow weeds because he had used too much..

With you 1000% with OG material in the soil..

What I see with the Incas, the homegardener should be able to do with a little effort..



OK, next question about MF.

A few of the web sites suggest that there are 120 to 150
"Species/strains" of MF. I wonder if only certain "species/strains" are vaild for only a few crops or maybe Plant families. ??

A while back Marsh sent a link to wheat, poor soil and a very specfic MF. A corn link shows a different "Strain"

Byron

Byron,
I am not an expert on this subject. But, I do understand the concepts. As I have time to study the available informaion on the web I gather that there are a number of strains of MF and each one is specific to certain plant families. The researchers are beginning to put the puzzle pieces together. And some of the efforts of this research are now available commercially.

I have been following with great interest the work of a skilled arborist in my area who is using MF with ancient live oaks. I have seen the before trees and the after trees. I am impressed. His work says to me that we must keep an open mind on this subject. Those in the horticultural world must experiment with these products. I certainly plan to set up some trials.

But, I feel that the most important part of these ongoing studies is that we listen to each other. I have been deep into experiments on southern nematode problems and tried to post some suggestions on the GW Tomato forum. Dr. Male blasted me. But, those who have trialed my ideas are thrilled because they are growing lush, green lawns organically (except for treating the ugly mole crickets) for the first time. As a matter of fact they are having a steak roast for me this weekend. Time will tell if my ideas work over the years. I have reservations and refuse to say this technique is a sure thing.

I truly want to hear the experiments of others trialing and working with MF. I want specific information. I want to be able to replicate the experiment. I want to note the results on my soils, in my climate with my growing problems. Hopefully it can happen through this Forum.

Nandina,

I did not understand Carolyn Male to be blasting you, My impression she was blasting the other one for some of his claims that appear to be "Iffy"

Your thoughts and ideas follow many others, The fungi work
on certain "crops" in certain soil conditions. This concept
I no problem with. Trees, shrubs and berries have been proven to work.

Yes a collective experiment would be great, But it also
needs to be done with some guide lines and true comparisons. Along with soil testing to establish a begining base line.

Byron