Propagation: part III based on my own experience

the shelves I bought are chrome. and I have 5 4'ft shelves 2 double lights per shelve. I only use heat mats designed for this. they are water proof. and the cable is also. heat pads would be a huge mistake. although I heard of using a heat pad designed for a water bed. with a thermostat. but I have no experience with it. Jim

Well the heating pad I am talking about does have a thermostat. It has 3 different setting on it and is one that could be wrapped to keep from getting it wet. Also these shelves I am talking about are Chrome also, they stand about 4 to41/2 ft high by 4 ft wide with refridgerator type shelves ( chrome type in the older type fridges )

Jim, do your poles separate in the middle? Mine are 6 ft and screw together in the middle so you can use them as 2 3 ft sections. But it has 6 shelves. Also on casters. Of course if you make 2 sections out of it then casters would only be on one side unless you bought more of those and they are really expensive. I think.

Yes, mine are double lights also. 2 to a shelf.

I forgot to ask you if you looked at Wal Mart for the other blankets of Mylar? Jim.

FF, I don't think that is close enough as a thermostat. The 3 settings. It has to be more precise than that or it will cook your seeds/plants. Mine with the heat mat for plants sets just like a thermostat for my furnace. In degrees. Like for tomatoes, I don't remember exactly so don't quote me, but I think they like it 75 or there abouts. (when I plant them I find out the right one). LOL

I'm sorry FF, I thought you said plastic on the shelving at Wally's. I will have to take a look next time I am over there. But, I don't need any until spring so I'm not in a hurry to get out there. After my stay in the hospital and get to moving around some then I will get serious about it.

Jeanette

FF I would stick to something thats rated to be around water. I would hate to see a short in the hpad and then its bzzbzzt .
Dave

Yeah I know what you mean about the bzzz LOL I really think I might try it and just be really careful with it. I have trays that go under the cells that catches the water. It is just something I am thinking about right now.

Jnet I am sorry to hear you in the hospital. I know all about that stuff. I have only been out myself about 6 weeks and I have another 6 weeks b4 I can go back to work. I have got some seed that I want to get started by the end of next month so I am going to go buy me a couple of the shelves. I have to stick with the cheaper stuff due to a fixed income. I have a lot of ideas to get things the way I want them. I have got to find some stone somewhere. I have a young Maple tree out in the front yard and I want to make hosta beds around it, and throw a few EES in with them and a few other things. Hopefully it will work. Well you all have a great TURKEY DAY !!!!!!!!!!

You have a nice day too everyone.

Jeanette

FF, you're going to have a hard time putting plants around a deciduous tree, I'm told - I guess they like to suck the water out of just about any plant that's near them. You might want to do some nice pots or do a raised bed lined with landscaping fabric to keep the tree roots out. Make sure that you don't put dirt up against the trunk of your tree, too - it can really wreak havoc.

Hope this helps!

Well I have to raise the bed anyway because it sets on a slope and yes I knew I would have to put down a cover. As far as the tree sucking the moisture I didn't know that . Why would it reek havoc with the tree? I have seen a lot of trees with flower beds around them and the the dirt is up against them?

Another way to get some bottom heat is to use a shop light with an incandescent bulb. It is my least favorite method, but I know it works for me. before I was able to get heat mats, DH gave me a light from his work shop with the clip that allowed it to hang on a shelf board or cross support, and I put an incandescent light bulb in it and let it shine underneath the flats of seedlings. I kept monitoring them to make sure they were not drying out but it worked. All of the seedlings were in water proof trays, so there was no danger of it shorting out and it was save because it was rated and approved for heavy duty use and I plugged it into a separate surge strip.

Flower Fantasy, Planting right up against the trunk of a tree would wreak havoc with it because in addition to soaking up water, the roots have to be able to breathe. If you put a deep planting layer right up against the trunk, then it forces the roots to rise to the surface of the soil further out towards the drip line of the tree. I have a bunch of live oaks in my yard and they are notorious for putting their roots right at the top of the soil. They will also draw 99% of the moisture away from anything near them. So anything you plant near the base of the tree will require much more attention. I love planting beds under trees and have a few myself, but I find that I keep having to move the circumference a little further out each time.

I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving. We had a great time. I want to get to Walmart and check out the mylar blankets, but I am not going anywhere near there this weekend! LOL I am definitely not a black friday shopper!

Have a great day.
I am going to start some brugmansia seeds today and maybe some plumeria too.
Linda

Ok I leaned something new again today !!!!!!!!! I just Lean all the time from this place. This means I will have to move my beds down farther away from the tree then That I can do!!!! It gets morning sun there and shaded in the afternoon so I should be good.

FF: If you build up soil around the tree onto the trunk it will promote disease and other issues to attack the truck. I am plannint to do like a donut around my tree. Landscape timbers on the inside and I am not sure what we aill use on the outside . It has to look just so for the nieghbors. When dealing with trees and beds under them the trees and plants compete for the same moisture. you just need to be aware of the added needs for the healt of both the tree and your planting bed. be sure to mulch well and lots of water to them both. Its kind of a fine line on getting enough water to both and way to much water for the established tree. What kind of tree is it FF?
I ate way too much and its still here for left overs. My brotherinlaw and step son will be trimming trees today. Stepson hangs steel so he will be right at home in the top of the trees. Boy the previous owners let the landscape go way to long with no maintenance to anything. We have a huge norway maple under the eve of the house. its about a 3-4" caliper tree. I hate it when people plant somethings with no regard as to how they will grow.
So what is everyone else doing this weekend? We did the 4am black friday thing and it was a zoo.
Dave

Dave you have got to be one brave cookie to get out there at 4 a.m. to shop of all things. I don't like to shop at 4 p.m. LOL

Jeanette

I agree I guess it was the hour and a half sleep I got last night that set me off...LOL

Well Pugh , I didn't do the black friday thing myself just couldn't handle those kind of crowds. I am still full from yesterday and like an old hog wanting a nap after eating LOL. The tree is an medium size maple of some sort. It isn't a true maple though, but of that family. Like I said I can just move my beds down a little farther away from it. Actually if you want to know the truth the front half of our front lawn leads right down into our small lake we have. I am going to have all of that tilled up and just make beds all the way thru there and put pathways thru out the beds and one to the lake. I have already got yuccas planted at the edge of the lake so all I have to do is the rest of it LOL. LOTS of WORK.

Ain't no way I am going anywhere near any retail store - just horse feed, and some cables for the computer. That's IT!

Good for you !, but I have to go tomorrow as bad as I hate too. It is going to still be crowded as most of our stores will still be carrying their sale stuff until it runs out. Some of the stores here have what they call a 3 day black friday. OUCH !!!!!!!!!!!

Yikes.

How is your weather there in TN?

Up, down and around - it's been in the 30's at night but yesterday and the day before - beautiful 60 degrees, but they're threatening flurries on Sunday. *sigh* Are you all having as crazy weather as we are?

Yeah we are! It was chilly today because of the wind but temperature wise it was nice. but suppose to be a high of 38 tomorrow BURRRRR!
We have already had temps of below 30 degrees and some snow flurries. Man I hate Winter!

I hear ya....

We got a half inch of snow last night, and surprisingly it was cold enough that it not only stuck but made the roads practically impassable.

Jeanette

OMG 1/2 inch makes roads impassable? Just kidding I know some of the roads out there are a bit twisty windy and every thing in between.
Dave

Hey Dave, I have a question.

What about lights? I am currently propagating plants and starting seeds in the same area and doing it all under florescent lights. Everyone seemed to give differing amounts of time to have the lights on, so I've just left mine on 24/7.

Whatcha think? Is it overkill? Do my plants need a nap?

I work in retail, and I hate Black Friday. Some people or should I say most. are animals and very rude. And very sad about the incident in New York and think that could of been me. I am a Asst. Mgr. Sooo Sad that people have to be that way.
Any way I was interested in the the planting around trees. I have started a woodland garden this last spring. Have done nothing to raise the beds just planted where I could find a spot that I didnt have to mess with the roots. And I use grass clipping around each plant. I'm on a hand dug well and water is short to come in the summer, I do have a creek with a pump for watering. But I can not soak. Is there something I can mix with the soil to hold water? or will the tree take it?

It wasn't the snow so much as it froze on the roads making them ice. 2 people killed. First of the year and the people in the big vehicles with 4 wheel drive think they are invincible so they make it bad for everyone else.

Jeanette

Hi everyone:
Excelent questions. All plants differ in their plants requirement. Lets see I am going off the top of my head but I think if I am remembering correctly, transpiration occurs in the function of transpiration occurs durring the dark be it day or night it just happens in the absents of light. It is the process by which plants release water from the cells. So yes some darkness is usually a requirement. I try to shoot for a 16 hour day personally. I feel a longer day should aid in plant growth in that it gives the plant a longer period of time to grow in resulting in more growth. I feel this way because of observations in the nursery as well as in landscape settings. Its kind of like the way grass tends to grow faster resulting in more mowing required to keep the neighbors happy. Some plants will require different treatments so you may want to do some research on the specific plant you are growing. pointsettia, mums and cacti all respond to different treatments of day length. I am assuming you are using the day length for seedlings and propagation. I personally am planning to set up a room in the garage for seedlings, tissue culture, propagation and winter vegies. DW has asked to have veggies all year long so it gives me a perfect excuse to build a room for this project.
Tilly: I would use the crystals to help out. I would also do a test to see how well your soil drains and also a breakdown on what your soil is composed of. The soil compasition can be done using a glass jar, fill it halfway with soil from you area of planting. Fill the jar up with water, leaving a small amount of room for air. Shake the jar vigorously and set the jar aside for a while. I forget the exact time frame but overnight should be fine. When you examine the jar after the agitation very carefully. you should see a layering of the soil in different bands of soil ingredients.
The soils moisture holding test is a bit different. I need to look this up so it might take a little while for me to get back to you on it. If someone can fill in the blanks on this please let us know. Either way I will research it and post my findings.
Ok the main thing I am getting to is the make up of the soil. How much clay is in your soil will dictate how you proceed. Adding peat moss to a clay based soil is a recipe for disaster. Clay comes in different colors so the orang color we are all told to look for is not the total picture. If your soil holds water for an excessivly long time, peat moss will only compound the moisture issue. Also if you are dealing with a lot of clay digging out a big hole and amending the soil will help to some extent, but it can also create a "clay bowl" where the moisture in the soil sits over watered and does not drain properly. This may also be compounded if you add the crystals to a clay pocket.
We in oklahoma as a lot of the us have a bad clay problem. I have seen complete yards that are nothing but a deep vein of clay. If you are dealing with this issue the soil needs to be amended to help break up the clay. One of the best products I have used is composted cotton seed burrs. Its a by product of the cotton industry when the cotton is processed from the plants to the fibers and cloth we all know and love. I would think the coconut husks would also be a good product to help break up the clay. what we are looking for is a good and regular excange of air and gasses in the soils structure. Clay does not allow a proper exchange when the soil is watered. It tends to lock in the air which becomes stagnate which can cause damage to the plants roots as well as to the benificial microorganisms in the soil.
I found this fact sheet that covers the soil make up in a broad sense. I will go into more detail in another post.

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1095/HLA-6436web.pdf

How much grass are you putting around the plants, how often and how fresh are the clippings? I ask this because adding organic matter is a good thing to do, however using fresh clippings in a large scale can cause a lot of problems. First and foremost is the tieing up of nitrogen. As the clipping decompose they require nitrogen to do so which is used quickly by the decomposition process. You may want to think about a compost pile. Its rather simple to make and it can be done in a number of ways. I think this might be a good subject to cover on here since we are heading into deep winter and planning can be done now so we are ready when spring does arive. There is a great thread on soils, I try to check it out from time to time. Here is the link to it.

Part 1 http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/527353/
Part II http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/719569/

I hope this helps
Dave

Jeanette:
I am sorry about making light of the snow. I see the same thing here every year. we get lots of ice and everyone thinks its fun to slide around. the problem is like you said the idiots in huge 4 wheel drives get going like its a nice dry road and then boom its a wreck. Did I say I hated the ice?? The snow is nice and pretty for about an hour untill the roads are driven on and its a mess from then on.We are suposed to get our first flurries tonight. I love to see the senic picturesqe snow covered trees and vallies. Stay warm and safe everyone
Dave

Well I don't know if we wil get it or not but they are saying snow for us tonight and some tomorrow. I wrecked my Durango on ice and I wasn't fooling around when it happened. There was a car stopped waitng to turn left and I was only going about 15 mph and when I started to stop there was a patch of ice I didn't see and bang hit a light pole head on. Scares me to death now to get out when the roads are icy.
I use grass clippings to but I let mine lay and dry for a few days b4 I use it. Bad luck when I have used it while still fresh, causes rotting.
Be careful if you get out to do any thing J.

Pagancat, I leave my florescents on 16/8. some of the hosta hybridizers leave them 24/7 and get really good results. and one I know has experimented with 5 on 3 off 5 on 3 off 5 on 3 off. he says it tricks the plants thinking they're on 24/7 maybe they think it's cloudy out, I don't know. some are going with LED's very expensive initially. and you have to buy so many blues, and reds ratios. I don't know about them I haven't followed the threads on it. for myself I'll stick with the cool white. I get good results. I was mixing them cool white bulb in 1 , standard. in the other. but it doesn't seem to matter. I buy a full case of bulbs at a time. and do a change out every year. Jim

Oh boy, looks like I had better give those babies a rest, eh? I'd go ahead and leave them on 24/7, but I have half a dozen different types of plants going.

Sheryl, 24/7 isn't good for most plants, even if you have several kinds. I used to do that too. Kind of "if a little is good then a lot is better" syndrome. Right? Wrong. Like Jim and Dave said 16 is better.

Jeanette

Jeanette, I like that number, but I do, do the reflective mylar. which gives them a boost. just don't cook them. Jim

Good point Jim. How is the Mylar working for you? Did you ever look to see if you got the right survival blankets? If so, they sure did go up in price. Still, maybe the benefit is worth it.

Jeanette

Oh boy, whatta dingbat. I turned off my lights last night, forgetting that my heating mat is on the same power strip. So much for that batch of seeds.... grr....

At least all of my Salvia 'Fairy Queen' came up already, I was just waiting on the Platycodon to sprout.

Jeannette, I haven't been back to check on the price at Walmart. the blanketts are what I used last year. the only problem was my seedlings started growing so fast and I didn't have enough room in my greenhouse for them. so I took the blankets down for awhile until the weather got warm enough to move plants out in the garden. Jim

Here is an interesting rose propagation site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSKFHUtRZQk

Garyt

I have looked at this video over and over with intrigue and the process is amazing. Why would they be grafting like that? I would have never thought you could hold a graft together like that with a clothes pin. Have you ever seen growing pots like they are using? It just makes one want to try this to see if you can get it to work.

Ok, now that I"ve put all this info from the last few days into mybrain, I need to organize it. (Ya'll keep forgetting youhave to act like I'm a kindergartner.

So, I can or should have lights on with my cuttings as well as the seed I start, right? I've got every kind of light imaginable on mine. All florescent, but diff sizes, etc. So, make sure I"m right about the cuttings. I"ve been driving myself nuts trying to figure out whether to put them under lights while they root and after they root.
What about stuff that doesn't like too much sun naturally, like brugs and EE's and stuff? I have E#E's I brought in cause they were in pots outside and I'm not sure what to do with them. Lights or just under a table or something so they'll go dormant?

Dave,stay the crap away from Black Fridays!!! Can't lose a friend to a crowd of rampaging people. WE'd all have to come and take care of your plants while you got better, and you know some of them would jump in our cars.!
I'm one of those who had rather just use my computer. If I went to get something on sale, I'd still buy other stuff I didn'tneed, so wouldn't save money anyway.

Do ya'll think we need heat mats in Texas? It gets cold, but not for long. It will be 29 tonight and over 50 tomorrow, so it's really erratic.