vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM) ROUND 2

Okey dokey folks, let's get on with the discussion of vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM). I am _not_ speaking about BioVam, which is a product currently sold, or any other specific product on the market. This is a fact finding mission and discussion on vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizae which we will call VAM for short.

Now I realize in the other M. fungi thread we had some...ahem...personal conflicts. Let's stay on the topic shall we and have no name calling or button pushing of any kind. Let's keep it civil, please. Thanks in advance!

Maybe the best way to discuss anything would be to take it item by item...for instance VAM pH requirements could be our first item to discuss. After thinking about this,I have a feeling that we'll never get anywhere if we don't go item by item. When we make a statement of fact, let's post the link to the source of information OR post the book and/or magazine we read it in. Personal opinions _are_ acceptable as long as we adhere to the rules of civility. BUT, please say "why" you feel the way you do.

The object of this discussion is to learn. It is _not_ a game and there will be _no_ winners or losers. Having said that, let the discussion begin on VAM. The first item on the list will be:

1. Special pH requirments(if any)of VAM to work in the home garden or on the farm. Container gardening _is_ part of this discussion.

Pete

Normally debates happen here on DG without an refereeing of any sort. This particular subject, however, has proven to be an exception.

No personal attacks. Direct your posts to facts and figures. If you can't attack the facts, don't attack the messenger.

Lastly, no advertising of any products. Don't even mention any brand names.

My edit finger is itching on this thread. Let's keep it clean.

Dave

Pete2,

OK This is why I orginally brought up the topic,

There are many links that support the use of this fungi for trees, berries, azalea, and Rhodie plants.

These plants also like an acidic soil with a soil pH of around 5.5.

Most of these plants will not do well in a normal veggie soils of 6.5 to 7.0

Based on verifiable data, I question the use of VAM in higher pH level soils.

Byron


This message was edited Tuesday, Sep 4th 10:18 AM

Byron.....I thought we were supposed to give a link to the info. in our messages, so we individuals could easily verify the info. put forth???

I raise thornless blackberries, and so am interested in the soil pH requirements and use of VAM for improved crops.

Owen

This message was edited Tuesday, Sep 4th 11:12 AM

Byron, please provide the link to that data. We are all very interested in this. Thanks!

Pete

Those links were in the previous discussion.
I dig the out again as soon as I can.



Owen,

Pete2 found some data, if you use organic material in the soil, VAM with be there.

Nadina tells me that when you cold compost leaves, VAM will be there. IIRC she said about a 4" layer. Gut feel, based on data from folks I believe in, mulch your berries with a 4" layer of leaves and ye shall have your fungi.

Byron







This message was edited Tuesday, Sep 4th 11:45 AM

Byron, we really need those links as soon as you can post them. We also need Nadina's link. Thanks!

Okay, for my contibution to the subject. I have to say that finding specific pH requirements or even discussions about VAM and pH was _very_ challenging. Talk about hours of research!!! But anyway, here's what I found.

First of all let me say that there are _lots_ of different kinds of VAM fungi. Here's a reference to Gigaspora ramisporophora and suitable growth at a pH of 5.1-7.1 (Read Improve soil pH and aeration)
http://www.bio.kpu.ac.jp/pomlab/Vaminf.html

You'll have to read the whole article here and it's talk of pH:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:NL5zn-YTu2s:www.lter.umn.edu/research/exper/e032/discussion.html+VAM+and+soil+pH+&hl=en

I found this _very_ interesting! However, it does not specifically mention VAM.It is a market farming link and therefore I would imagine it's dealing with vegetable crops. Since VAM is the M. fungi used on most vegetables, if figured they were talking about VAM. You be the judge here.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:nLvsZNstGVk:www.ibilio.org/ecolandtech/agriculture-list-archi

This mentions pH of 7.3 on grass.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:MuJd1SEwyNg:www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/graminoid/ereoph/botanical_and_ecological_characteristics.html+VAM+and+soil+pH+&hl=en

Already I can see we're going to have problems with so many species of VAM. How do we know which species are better for the garden. Someone enlighten me, please.

Pete

I'll try and find out!

Pete

So folks won't have to look back at old material on another thread, all material and references _must_ be posted again. That way we can all stay on the same page. Thanks!

Pete

Apparently 130 spp of fungi participate in VAM. Wow! Read the whole thing. It's _very_ interesting.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:2g-ghT4cBTQ:www.orst.edu/dept/botany/mycology/bot461/class/lecture5.html++Zygomycetes+and+VAM&hl=en

I won't mention any companies but apparently some or all make up a VAM "cocktail" for gardners to use. I found wording such as this:

"combines a proprietary "cocktail" blend of four selected strains of vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi with growth promoting bacteria and organic biostimulants - all in a single dry application."

Nandia's stuff is posted at GW, for those that are banned.

here is how she makes her own.

Please also note her comments for acid loving plants..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have posted the way I make MF on the Forums. In a part of my garden which
is quite natural with azaleas, camelias, etc., I have spread out a large
section of black plastic on the ground under the bushes. Each fall I put
down a layer of whatever leaves are falling...a mixture of every type. I
make the pile an even 4" high and water as needed. (Leaves could be
shredded.) This quickly breaks down. Actually I have set up two sections
like this and I alternate using the dirt each year. Let me remind you that
whatever MF is there is very fragile. I lift the dirt up with a flat edged
shovel and carry each shovelful to where I want it, then gently work it into
the soil. I mainly use the MFsoil when transplanting/potting rooted cuttings
or young trees. I find it makes a difference. Will be interested to hear
your results.

Nandina

Another interesting article by Dr. David Sylvia

http://dmsylvia.ifas.ufl.edu/

A few more notes from Nandina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As I write this I will quote, from time to time, from an excellent article
by Don Chapman titled "What All Growers Should Know About Mycorrhizal
Fungi". I will use quotes when I do. He is in the business of manufacturing
and marketing mycorrhizal inoculates but, this article does give a simple
explanation of what is a very simple natural process. At the same time MF is
complicated and not completely understood. Most of the information on MF is
either written in highly scientific language or by manufacturers of MF.
Let's see if I can put the subject into perspective.

Actually, I grew up knowing about MF. My Dad, Arno Nehrling, Karl Sax and
other horticulturists associated with the Arnold Arboretum in Boston were
into deep study on the subject during the 1930's-40's. This is where Ruth
Stout caught up with it and developed her growing techniques. Dad called MF
the 'stuff of the Universe".

MF is naturally present in undisturbed soils. The leaf canopy, be it
conifer, evergreen or deciduous falls to earth, litters the ground an inch
or more thick and decomposes by the cold compost method "aided by bacteria,
earthworms and various other soil organisms". This is how nature
manufactures MF. As you know, a plant's feeder roots are just under the
surface of the soil "and the fungi improve the health and development of
their host by enhancing plant nutrition and disease and stress resistance;
the more vigorous plant is a better source of C to the soil, which
encourages the activity of the soil biota; the products of microbial
metabolism enhance soil aggregation; and better soil structure permits
better plant growth." This was the basis of Ruth Stout's experiment. She
mulched with straw, ammended on top of that, never tilled, disturbed the
soil only enough to plant each crop, added more straw mulch, etc. year after
year. Her work illustrates a very important point. MF is very fragile and
survives only in the top few inches of soil. If it is vigorously disturbed
it dies. The Interbay mulching technique everyone is talking about is simply
a variation of Ruth's studies. In answer to your basic question, MF will
replenish itself if the natural growth, be it forest or grasslands, remain
in their natural state as planted by Mother Nature.

But, now the hand and technology of man enter the picture. I will use as an
example the live oaks growing in my area. For hundreds of years they have
grown on fairly undisturbed land and thrived. Suddenly our area is a
popular retirement spot. Thousands of homes are being constructed.
Developers rip and tear under live oaks with backhoes and heavy trucks. The
land is disturbed. The homeowner moves in and carefully rakes up the live
oak leaves that shower out of the trees every spring onto his lawn. And
suddenly, the poor live oaks have lost their naturally manufactured source
of MF. Within a few years they begin to show signs of decline.

"Some plants are so dependent on MF they may struggle to survive without it.
A few extremely dependent ones are avacados, bananas, all types of citrus
and grapes." I would add to this quote that throughout my years of working
with land development I feel that trees in the beech family are the most
dependent on MF. If soils under these are disturbed or compacted the beech
trees will be dead within 3-6 years.

Now we have the recently introduced technology of commercially produced MF.
Dorie and I are both strong advocates of having this substance injected
around live oaks that have been stressed by construction. We have seen the
results. And, around the world these MF products are being tested by
arborists and growers. It is an evolving business still undergoing study.

I tend to stay off the Organic and Soils Forums. I have neither the time nor
patience to deal with some of the posters. I shudder when reading...to
improve clay soils keep tilling in leaves. Then the next person states that
it did not help his soil at all. To improve clay soil the leaves should be
spead on the top of the soil and allowed to decay. Tilling every year
destroys the MF and the improvement of soil texture. "The hyphae clump
individual clay particles into aggregates, thereby allowing more oxygen to
reach the root zone. This promotes the rapid multiplication of beneficial
organisms, this forming of tight clay soil into a granular texture is," the
smart way to handle clay soils. And, based on my studies the use of wetting
agents enhances and speeds the the process of creating friable soils. But,
if I mention wetting agents everyone jumps down my throat. There are organic
ones available and they are an extremely important tool for certain soil
conditions.

There is, of course, a great deal more to this subject. But, I hope this
thumb nail sketch helps a bit.

I think these are the 2 I posted before

http://www.mycorrhiza.com/

UCoLO Phosphour soil amts.
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/TRA/PLANTS/mycorrhiza.html

An E-mail from Byron alerts me to the fact that he is using my name in vain! That's okay, because this is an interesting subject. One that is not new to me. Byron and I have been discussing VAM over the past week or so and his questions led me to trying all sorts of word combinations in Search to direct him to authoritative sites. Finally hit the jack pot when I entered "Mycorrhizal fungus manufacturers". Be prepared for a few nights of heavy study. Yes, you will find the commercial manufacturers advertising. But,....a whole lot of interesting, scientific papers will appear. And you really should scan through the commercials, also, because there is interesting reading. A study of these sites will give you some background on the subject and also raise a few questions.

I have not yet found your first go-a-round on this subject. Will do so when I have time. But, I note the subject of pH has been raised. As with all things in the natural world, I believe that acute observation coupled with common sense can provide many answers. Some plant material has evolved that has no need to use VAM. Other plants are very dependent on it. If you study natural, undisturbed areas anywhere in the world and understand the process by which VAM develops then you will understand that soil pH is not a factor. And, if a plant is growing in area where the pH is at the top or bottom of the scale, could that possibly be a plant that does not rely on VAM for development? Lot's to think about.

This is not a subject that should ignite a war. Rather, we should figure out how to use a natural process that Ma Nature has developed to the best advantage in the garden.

Hi nandina and welcome to DG! Thanks for joining us on this topic. :)

And boy, are you ever right! I spent at least 8 hours on the computer day before yesterday reading and printing. That's not to mention the other days when I did the very same thing.

Pete

Nandina

In the future would really like to see more on this.

"some plant material has evolved that has no need to use VAM"

Byron

Hi Terri and Byron and thanks for the invitation ?to war? OH! that was VAM!

And hello Nandina; I wondered where you had gone off to if not away from GW. I rarely post on the soil and compost forum for the same reason you give. Too many rabid "experts" dispensing questionable advice.

I haven't read the earlier contentious thread yet; I decided better not to get caught up in some heated debate. In the recent past I vowed not to get into the subject again because too many people have too many conflicting ideas based on too little prior knowledge, including me at times.

Do I believe that VAM works; do I have experience? A qualified yes to both. I ran a rough experiment this past spring with zuccini. I direct seeded into a beautifully prepared bed adjacent to a mulched dirt parking area over which I had spread additional leaves and other shredded plant materials over rotting zuccinis. Both Ronde de Nice types. We didn't prepare the parking dirt in any way.

Both side germinated and grew well, the parking lot ones half again as big. Now, 5 months since the last rains and with no supplemental irrigation, the parking lot zuccinis were showing stress and getting some mildew. We pulled them today because the lot is to be used Thursday for overflow parking.

The squashes in the prepped bed needed regular irrigation, got PM fairly early and were pulled a month ago. I had similar experiences with onions, garlics, fava beans, melons and tomatoes. I can't prove the VAM or any mycorrhizal association.

Now if only VAM repelled cottontails and Quail...

Greetings gentlmen, I am not an expert on the subject....I just use vam fungi with pretty good results. It's interesting that Byron is relating the thought that it's best not to disturb the top 3" of soil, because that's where most beneficial organisms live. It's interesting because Byron through the years has alway advocated deep tilling the soil to destroy diseases and pests.

It would do my heart good if Byron has seen the light. I practice a form of Ruth Stouts method...not because I read her book....but because I'm lazy....and I don't enjoy working in 95 degree heat with 99% humidity (I live in South Florida)

I mulch with straw....and I've made up my mind not to till or turn over my soil....but instead to add organic amendments on top of the previously laid straw mulch....and to plant in the same spots as before.

I find that I actually save money using vam. Before I had to buy all kinds of expensive soil amendments year after year. Now, after using gypsum, ironite, rock phosphate and other amendments last year...I've laid the ground work for at least 5 years of success. I will only put down some organic fertilizer, and some worm castings. I have read that if your plants are innoculated with Vam, and are allow to grow for 90 to 120 days, then natural vam spores will be produced, thereby innoculating future plant generations. A cover crop is also recommended to help naturally spread the vam. I'm no expert, but somehow I believe in this. But despite this....vam fungi is so inexpensive on a per plant dosage...that I have no problem with adding "insurance" by innoculating my plants with powdered vam fungi.

Byron, except by god....or in the hands of scientists...life doesn't spontaneously spring forth. In order for vam fungi to be produced...the material you try to produce it with has to have vam fungi incorporated in it. I think most homeowners agree that the soil on most developed properties is sterile land fill, and is in dire need of organic amendments. I see nothing wrong with speeding nature along by adding vam fungi to your plantings. Once a plant is innoculated, it's innoculated for life. I would think that vam fungi would be a natural part of your organic growing lifestyle.

If one was to have an open mind, you would think that you would set aside a piece of land to try Vam, and see the results first hand. Making excuses or using scare tactics would only diminish the credability of your point of view.

Peter White

This is one of my favorite sites, great graphics, from the aussies:

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/vam.html

Marsh

Sort of flew thru it.

Again I noted where it was used, Trees and herbs,
along with notes about soil pH.. and poor soils..

Byron

Mr White

You seem to have a little trouble reading.

1. Specs. for this list are no flames and no spam, as I see it you have violated both rules.

If you also took the time to read, you would note, I don't even pretend to be an expert here. I am asking questions that your buddy Thomas can't answer..

If I had a tomato list where I could not tell one of my members that Bt was an organic compound or why tomatoes crack then I think this discussion is way out of your league.

Or grow 1 plant with extra fertilizer and vam vs one without fertilizer and with out vam and this will be your answer that VAM is great stuff.

I really wish you would stay out of this one or a least
follow the rules.

This is a violation of the rules:
"I am asking questions that your buddy Thomas can't answer."
Rule broken: no button pushing of any kind.

It's also a statement inconsistent with the prior thread in which virtually every statement about VAM fungi made by B.Bromley was shown to be inconsistent with scientific fact.
I didn't show you a lot of the technical references before, but now that door has been opened and it is quite simple to demonstrate that VAM fungi does indeed benefit plants at quite high levels of pH, which is the topic of my little presentation.

Farther down, I'll list several plants that grow well in soils of pH 7.5 and are all benefited by VAM fungi. I will then show you scientific findings that shows important species of VAM fungi are able to perform quite well at high levels of pH and therefore, a pH of 7.5 will pose no obstruction to the VAM fungi to benefit the plants listed below.

First, let's talk about a confusing statement B.Bromley wrote:

"There are many links that support the use of this fungi for trees, berries, azalea, and Rhodie plants."

We are talking about VAM fungi, correct? If that's the case, then the statement above which is the basis of the argument for VAM only working in acidic soils, has some major problems that don't agree with scientific facts.

To clarify:

Some trees are benefited by VAM but not all trees. For example, Acer sp., Pyrus sp., Malus sp., Prunus sp., and several others are benfited by VAM fungi. Pinus sp., Quercus sp., Pseudotsuga sp., and others are benefited by Ectomycorrhiza sp. You can't just say "trees" because not all trees are benefited by VAM fungi.

Similarly berries fall into different species groups. Some are benefited by VAM and some are not. For example: Rubus sp., Fragaria sp., and others are benefited by VAM fungi, but Vaccinium sp., are benefited by Ericoid Mycorrhiza. You can't just say berries because not all berries are benefited by VAM fungi.

The Rhododendron sp., which includes Azaleas are NOT benefited by VAM fungi. They are benefited by and are primarily colonized by Ericoid Mycorrhiza. These plants do indeed like acidic soils but VAM fungi is not the primary fungi which colonizes the roots of those plants. That basically pulls the rug out from under the acid loving plant speculation.

All of the above can be found in the book, "Mycorrhizal Symbiosis", second edition, S.E. Smith and D.J. Read, Copyright 1997 Academic Press. When I purchased it, the book was considered the "Bible of Mycology" because it contains the work of the majority of researchers from when the science began through 1997 when the second edition was published. The list of reference credits runs from page 490 to 587 with the names of researchers and what work they were noted for as presented in the book.

The argument about some of these plants being acid loving plants (like those in the Rhododendron sp., and Vaccinium sp.,) is therefore evidence that VAM fungi do not grow in 7.0+ pH is incorrect. Rhododendron sp., for example are not benefited by VAM fungi and so you can not use those plant examples to support the speculation that VAM fungi doesn't live or function in alkaline soils. That logic is incorrect.

In order to say that VAM fungi does not exist or benefit plants in pH soils of 7+ is to ignore scientific fact or to be unaware of scientific fact. So, let's take a look at some facts that prove beyond a doubt that VAM fungi live and benefit plants in alkaline soil conditions.

Here's a list of plants that will grow in soils of pH 7.5 and they all benefit from VAM fungi. For some of these plants, pH 7.5 is the ideal.

pH reference for this plant list: http://homepages.which.net/~fred.moor/soil/ph/p010601.htm

Alfalfa
Artichoke, jerusalem
Asparagus
Avacado
Barley
Bean, french
Cherries
Chives
Corn
Cucumber
Currants
French beans
Grape vine
Garlic
Leek
Mulberry
Peach
Peas
Pecan
Pepper
Plum
Tomato

There's a lot of research that clearly shows that VAM fungi live and benefit plants at extreamly high pH values. For example:

Here's a clear quote to refute the opinion of VAM fungi not living and working rather well at very high pH values:

"G. fasciculatum originally isolated from high pH soil site (pH 9.2) had relatively high tolerance to pH 8.5 to 10.5 compared to other species, as exhibited by higher degree of chlamydospore formation and root colonization. The study suggests that VAM isolates can tolerate high pH and assist in alleviating stress of high pH by promoting P uptake and seedling growth."

The scientific reference for the above: http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/latest/zsidh1.htm

Here's an abstract that covers three important species of VAM fungi which are commonly found in most of the commercially developed inoculum: Here we have maize (corn) being grown at pH 7.8 and pH 8.0.

Clark RB; Zeto SK. 1996. Iron acquisition by mycorrhizal maize grown on alkaline soil. JOURNAL OF PLANT NUTRITION. 19(2):247-264.

Address:

Clark RB, USDA ARS,APPALACHIAN SOIL & WATER CONSERVAT RES LAB,POB 867,BECKLEY,WV 25802.

Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (VAMF) we known to improve the mineral nutritional status of plants. Since information on effects of VAMF on plant iron (Fe) nutrition is limited, an Fe deficient-susceptible maize (Zea mays L., ys1/ys1) was grown on alkaline Quinlan (Typic Ustochrept, pH 8.0) and Ulysses (Aridic Haplustoll, pH 7.8) soils with Glomus VAMF isolates G. etunicatum WV579A (Gel, G. diaphanum WV579B (Gd), and G. intraradices WV894 (Gi) to determine plant growth responses to VAMF associations and efficacy of these VAMF isolates to enhance Fe acquisition. Shoot and root dry matter (DM) were higher in mycorrhizal (+VAM) then in nonmycorrhizal (-VAM) plants, and followed a sequence of Ge > Gd greater than or equal to Gi > -VAM. Root DM of Ge plants was higher than other +VAM plants. Even though relatively low, leaf chlorophyll (SFAD unit) readings were higher in +VAM than in -VAM plants and followed a sequence similar to DM. Plants colonized with Gi had higher leaf Fe, phosphorus (P), and zinc (Zn) concentrations and contents than other +VAM as well as -VAM plants. Leaf concentrations and contents of other mineral nutrients had few changes among +VAM plants, but some differences between -VAM and +VAM plants were noted. The VAMF isolates improved Fe acquisition in maize grown under severe Fe deficiency conditions, but benefits to this fast growing plant was not sufficiently large to recommend that it be grown on fields where Fe deficiency is prevalent. improved host plant root development. and morphology and acquisition of P may have been involved in enhanced Fe acquisition by +VAM plants.

These scientific findings and a whole lot more findings that I could list in great abundance which list VAM fungi species that grow quite well on corn at 7.8 and 8.0 pH.

The following information can be found in "Mycorrhizal Symbiosis" second edition.

You might just as well learn that there are seven kinds of Mycorrhizal fungi:
1. VA (VAM)
2. Ectomycorrhiza
3. Ectoendomycorrhiza
4. Arbutoid
5. Monotropoid
6. Ericoid
7. Orchid

You also might just as well learn that there are also five groupings of VAM fungi and only about 150 species of VAM fungi had been defined by 1993.

VAM fungi groups:
Glomus, Entrophospora, Acaulospora, Gigospora, Scutellospora.

So, to summarize a bit: VAM fungi are not restricted from growing in pH soils and benefiting many plants that are grown in our gardens and on our farms.

Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou

Pete asks:

"Already I can see we're going to have problems with so many species of VAM. How do we know which species are better for the garden. Someone enlighten me, please."

I'll be glad to give you the benefit of my experience on this question. There are 150 species of VAM fungi which are grouped into 5 categories (shown previously). Some of those species perform better than others on behalf of their host plants. Some of those species boarder upon being a burden (parasite) or they provide no significant benefit to the host plants and for that reason, you won't find those species in commercial inoculum. VAM fungi manufacturers seek to put a number of species of mycorrhizal fungi into their inoculum that via research, are shown to provide excellent benefits to the plants in the symbiosis process. The manufacturers are not picking the inferior fungi, because they all want a product that will perform.

Most of the manufacturers are not the source of the research about which VAM fungi species performs the best. That kind of research can come from a variety of sources and generally ends up being published in Scientific journals where the findings are made available to everyone who subscribes to the journal or free to anyone who just wants to look at the abstracts.

I've seen some claims by people on the internet where they have tried to say that certain species of VAM fungi benefit certain species of plants. That sort of claim is simply not true with VAM fungi. It is true with other kinds of mycorrhizal fungi, but not VAM fungi. There are a couple of exceptions but those exceptions involve plants that are not food producing plants you will find people growing in their gardens or on the farm.

There are some companies that package their VAM fungi in a liquid and make the claim it will give a lot of benefit to plants, but VAM fungi does not live very long in water. I've seen a few companies say their VAM fungi product which is in water is still good out at 6 months. That's not possible. They can have all the greatest VAM fungi species in their product, but at six months in water, it's all dead. If you don't know that VAM fungi can't live in water very long, you buy the product and then discover no real benefits... except that company could have put fertilizer in their product and minerals and plant hormones and your plants might grow nicely, but it's not from the VAM fungi.

I bought product from Don Chapman (12 quarts) to sell to people and later found out it was all dead. Don comes from an investment banker background and he is not the manufacturer of his VAM fungi. Yet, I've talked to people who have used his product and it seemed to work fine.

I've been doing application research with VAM fungi and I've documented a lot of what I term as benefits to using VAM fungi. I have also tested a number of different products to observe how they worked. Most work but with varying degrees of success and lengths of time. After trying a lot of different products... not something the typical consumer will do or can do, I came to a couple of important determinations that people need to understand when using VAM fungi. It breaks down to three areas.

1. If I do everything properly, what benefits should I expect when using VAM fungi? What are the specific improvements I should be able to see as a result of using VAM fungi. If you don't know what those improvements are, you don't know what to evaluate or how to evaluate performance.

2. There are certainly some things you can not do when using VAM fungi. You need to know what those things are so you don't get into trouble. Most people live in a chemical world or an archaic organic world and there are things you can't put on your plants or use in the soils or do to the soils when you are using VAM fungi. You need to learn these things and interestingly enough, you need to make sure other people who "MIGHT" do some no-no with your plants also understands the rules. For example: you could go on vacation and have a relative take care of your plants. They decide to spray your plants with one of the popular chemical systemic fungicides.. which could kill all the VAM fungi.

3. VAM fungi is a live organism. You need to know how to apply it to your plants and you need to know about the things you can do to take advantage of the VAM fungi. There are people who think they are growing their plants organically, but their practices can not take advantage of what the VAM fungi has to offer and they will not see any observable benefits. If they had any instructions to read, they probably didn't read them or follow them. Cultural practice changes need to be made and if you don't make them, then the VAM fungi won't work at all sometimes.

As you can see, this success of your using VAM fungi goes well beyond something as simple as deciding what species to use.

Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou

My apologies to the group but I must respond to Byron. You're hate and bias in this matter is truly showing. I didn't mention any product name, nor did I attack you. I merely made a statement that you seem to agree with the notion that to disturb the top 3 inches of top soil destroys beneficial organisms...when for years you have advocated deep tilling to destroy pests and dormant diseases.

Is the above false?

I didn't flame you, I discussed it....you are unable to understand the difference. As far as my credentials in this matter....I'm a user....not an expert on Vam. Why can't you accept that statement without spewing your hate?

Peter White

Yes, let's please remember that we may disagree on things. That is _not_ meant as an attack...just a difference of opinion. And we've all got those right? Okay! Well, moving right along (yup, I'm whistling!) LOL

Pete

Sorry, I was really hoping that this conversation could be an informational topic that stuck to the facts.

I over-estimated the participants in this thread.

Dave