soil problem

I've planted salvia, tulips and impatiens on the East side of my house. None of them have grown as they should. The salvia and impatiens don't grow a lot and never fill in. However, they do great in the pots I have also on the East side. Because they do well in the pots using Miracle Grow potting soil, I have to assume that my garden soil is poor. There are tulips starting to come up now, but if they do as last year, only a few will actually bud and bloom. We've tried mixing potting soil with the dirt and fertilize as recommended that didn't help. Can someone tell me what we need to do to improve this soil?

Thank you!

I can't speak for the tulips since I really don't grow bulbs, but for the others I think there are a few other things to think about. How long ago did you plant them? Things will often take a little longer to show top growth when they're in the garden because they take the time to develop their roots first. Not getting enough water could stunt their growth (as could watering too much). Planting them in the heat of summer will also typically cause plants to struggle and not do as well in their first year. I'd also look at sun/shade in that area and make sure the plants are getting what they need--impatiens like some shade, but most salvia prefer full sun and I believe tulips do as well, so if all they're getting is a bit of morning sun then they may not be happy because of that (many salvias do fine in poor soil, so for them I really suspect it's a sun issue more than anything).

If it really is a soil issue, the best thing to do is take samples from a few different parts of that area of the yard and send them out for testing, that will tell you what your soil is missing and if they don't provide recommendations then someone here can help you with what to add. That being said, it never hurts to incorporate organic amendments like compost to the soil so you could start with that while you're waiting for soil test results.

Are you trying to grow all three plants as perennials, or only the tulips? Are you comparing overwintered outside potted plants to the overwintered ground plants? I know there are many different salvias and impatiens that are for a warmer zone than yours. If so i am surprised that they even grow at all. As for the tulips, there are ones that are known for being more perennial, like darwins, greigii, triumph, species. If you are growing some of the others, they may take several years to bloom again in the right conditions. most people use those varieties as annuals.
salvias
http://www.mountainvalleygrowers.com/salviaarticle.htm
impatiens
http://landscaping.about.com/od/flowerseed/p/impatiens_plant.htm
tulips
http://www.americanmeadows.com/QuickGuideToFlowerBulbs/AboutPlantingBulbsinFall/EncourageYourTulips.aspx

I've grown impatiens for years and had wonderful success with them. They grow fine in the pots that are getting the same amount of sun and water as the ones in the ground. It's only the ones in the yard I'm having problems with. The salvia did the exact same thing, so I'm pretty certain it is the soil. I always plant them in the spring after the last frost, so they have a long growing season. This is my 3rd house where I've planted impatiens and never had a problem before. In the past, I just mixed some potting soil in with the yard soil. They have always grown into huge, beautiful, full mounds, but in this particular area, they do nothing. The ones in the pots (getting the same light and watering schedule) are in Miracle Grow potting soil and they grow like crazy.
I am not sure what type tulips these are. I planted them two years ago in the same place where I've planted the other flowers. There were a large number of them, which we divided after the first season, then last year only about 6 bloomed. I have never tried tulips before, so I didn't know what to expect.

Thank you for your time and any advice you can share.

it could be the soil is more clay and holding more water. you could try watering less or not at all.

Are there tree roots in the area? I can't remember if it was on this forum or another one, but there was someone else who thought there was something wrong with their soil and it was really tree roots. There was a tree in their neighbor's yard and the roots extended into the area they were having problems with. Trees will suck up a lot of the moisture and nutrients.

Since you were fertilizing, that should have at least partially made up for some deficiencies in the soil and you should have at least had some blooms, maybe the plants wouldn't get quite as nice and full as they would in good soil but especially with the salvias which do fine in poor soil I think you should have had more blooms even with poor soil. Maybe your soil's not the best, but I suspect there's something else wrong too. Either it's a watering issue relating to soil that drains better or worse than what you're used to, or tree roots or something along those lines. It never hurts to incorporate some organic amendments though, that will help things do even better and will improve your soil over time, even if you have good soil you can never hurt things by doing that.

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that I've heard that tulips are not very reliable to return every year. I just read on the Bulb Forum that some people even grow them as annuals. To get better information on your tulips, you might want to consider becoming a Dave's Garden subscriber so you can access the Bulb Forum. I'm sure someone there could help. Otherwise, you might consider growing daffodils or crocus, which are more reliable than tulips.

Are they not reliable on returning every year, or not reliable on blooming every year? It sounded like JP's were coming back fine, just not blooming very well. In warmer climates I know they're unreliable bloomers because they need some winter chill.

Hi ecrane,

I thought I had read somewhere that they don't always grow back the following year. At least, that's been my experience. But as I said, I'm no expert. It could have been that something ate them. Guess I didn't carefully read JP's description.

tulips will still come up they just won't bloom. they put off daughter bulbs like other bulbs but it takes them a few years to mature and bloom. so if you do nothing, they will eventually bloom again. but who wants a couple of years with no or little bloom? some are more known as "perennials" than others as above. they like a well drained hot soil in the summer, so i suppose they could rot or not do to well if you have a wet summer.

I already have many tulips coming up. If they all bloom (or even half), I'll be thrilled, but if it's like last year, only a few will produce a bloom. These were large, top quality bulbs that I obtained from someone who had a garden shop and was going out of business. Unfortunately, I didn't think to ask what kind they were or how to care for them, other than how to plant them. They looked healthy last year when they came up and I was anxiously awaiting many beautiful blooms, but only a few did anything. If it takes a few years for them all to bloom, that's okay. If that's the case, I just need to know that so I won't think I'm doing something wrong.
There is a tree several yards away from this small garden area, but I don't think the roots are affecting it. There was dirt brought in and it's a raised flower bed, so it's not even with the ground.
I've been reading about things to add to the soil that might help it, but it's confusing. I'd welcome any suggestions. Someone told me that the dirt was river dirt. I have no clue if that's good or bad, but going on my results, I'd guess it's not good.
Thank you to all of you who are offering suggestions and trying to help me. I truly appreciate it.

jpnmo, there is nothing you did wrong or can do to get the tulips to bloom. the tree roots won't bother them. the bottom land near the river is usually some of the most fertile soil.
If you are starting the salvia and impatiens indoors just be careful to harden them off and don't plant too early.

If you still think it's your soil, then send some out to a lab for testing, they'll tell you what's missing and then you can add things to make up for what's missing and see if your plants do better. In the meantime adding organic material like compost to the soil won't ever hurt and will probably help some. River dirt ought to be pretty nutrient rich though, although I wonder if it might be on the heavy/poor draining side which could mean your plants were staying too wet (adding organic material can help improve drainage)

Thanks to all of you who have answered my original post. I've learned from my husband that the dirt is not river dirt, as I thought. (That was from a previous house.) This dirt came from a building site. Would just adding a good potting soil to it be helpful? If not, where or who do I take it to be tested?

Thanks again for your advice.

I wouldn't add potting mix, I don't think it'll really do much to improve your soil. I'd look for either bagged compost or soil conditioner. If it's fill dirt from a building site then there's a decent chance it's on the poor side. I'd call your local extension office and they should be able to recommend some labs that can test your soil for you.

The first thing that I noticed is you mentioned trying to grow salvia and impatiens together. Salvia need full sun and impatiens need shade. What kind of light do you have in that space?
Tulips are notoriously unreliable as far as coming back every year. Daffodils do much better. I never have to replant them like I do the tulips. When you plant the bulbs, add a bit of bonemeal and peat moss to the planting hole.
The other thing I would recommend is to toss out the Miracle-Gro. It belongs in the hazardous waste dump. Over time, it will leach out any nutrients your soil ever had and make it sterile. Switch to organic soil amendments like compost and rotted manure; grass clippings and shredded leaves that haven't been treated with chemicals; peat moss, shredded straw, even seaweed and kelp if you live near the ocean. The last two are also available in dried form all over the country. Use organic mulches to hold in the amendments and moisture. If you find you need more acid, recycle your coffee grounds.
Use organic fertilizers like diluted fish emulsion, seaweed extract, compost tea, bonemeal and bloodmeal instead of chemicals. You will find that when you get your soil in good condition, you won't even need much fertilizing. The above suggestion of having your soil analyzed is a good way to start. also dig around and see if you have any worms in the space. The presence or absence of worms is a good sign of your soil's fertility; the more worms, the better.
To save money on amendments, start a compost pile and throw in your grass clippings, leaves, (non-meat) kitchen waste, non-diseased yard waste, shredded newspaper and other shredded non-shiny paper.
Bottom line--Make sure your plants are getting the light they require and go organic everything else.

One last long-shot suggestion... you don't have a black walnut tree growing anywhere nearby, do you? For five years I struggled with a 20 sq ft patch of my flowerbed where nothing would grow but yucca and weeds. Plants that were fine 20 feet away would die in that spot. I finally realized that in the fall, the neighbor's very tall black walnut (which was quite a ways away) would lose its leaves and the prevailing wind would blow them onto our roof and they'd slide down and collect in that spot. Even though we did rake them up each year, I guess enough of the toxins leached out to make the soil inhospitable.

I had the soil tested and the report says it is in excellent condition. Every category rated high except potassium, which was rated as "excess". The only recommendation they gave was that we "may need to sidedress with nitrogen during the growing season". Being new to all this, I have no clue what that means and I am more confused than ever as to why my flowers do not grow well there. I had a few more tulips bloom this year than last, so I was pleased with that. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks!

"Side dressing with nitrogen" sounds to me like a fancy way of saying you might need to give the plants some fertilizer during the year (preferably one that's higher in N than in P/K which you don't need as much)

What your soil results tell me is that your problem is not related to the nutrients in your soil, it's caused by something else (and there are a million different things that can cause plants not to do well besides poor soil). Since it sounds like you've had success with the same types of plants in the same area in pots, I tend to suspect either drainage (poor drainage = overwatering, or super fast draining soil = not watering enough) or transplant shock (if you plant things late enough in the spring and it gets hot before they get established, that can really stress plants out). Or it could be the tree roots from the tree that's a few yards away--just because your plants are in a raised bed doesn't mean the tree couldn't be stealing some of the water, and if you're watering them at the low end of what they actually need, then the bit that the tree steals might make a difference. All of these things would bother plants in the ground but wouldn't have an impact on plants in containers.

One thing you could do if you don't get any ideas that feel right to you would be to keep us posted this season as you grow things--if your plants start to decline and you can post pictures along with details on watering, fertilizing, etc we may be better able to troubleshoot what's going on.

Thank you kmm44, Loligo and ecrane3 for your help. I can't express how much I appreciate it. The notes from the soil testing said there is no need for fertilizer or lime. The salvia did as poorly as the impatiens, so I'm questioning whether the amount of sun was the problem. Both kinds of flowers were alive, but that's about all I can say positive about them. I'm considering going for some type of perennial this year and giving up on impatiens except for putting it in pots. I'm thinking that maybe the area gets too much sun, even though it's not the late afternoon sun. Can anyone suggest a pretty, easy growing perennial that fills in nicely, like impatiens? I'd like something colorful that will bloom through the fall. I don't like marigolds and am limited in my knowledge of other perennials. I've been online looking for ideas today, but it's very confusing.

Thank you again for your help!

Here's the thing--you said that you had salvia and impatiens both in that area in containers and they both did well, correct? As I mentioned in my last post, that tells me it's not an issue with amount of sun or anything like that, it is more likely to be related to the combination of how your soil drains and how much you are watering, or maybe transplant shock if you planted them later in the spring when weather was already starting to get warm. Whatever you end up planting there, I'd definitely do some extra checking on your watering this year rather than just watering how you did last year by default. Check the soil regularly to see how quickly it dries out, could be you were watering too much or too little last year and that's what caused your problems. And I'd get stuff in the ground sooner rather than later, warm weather is probably not too far away!

ecrane3 -

Once again, thank you for your suggestion. I recently bought a meter that measure PH, moisture and light, so that should help me with the watering issue. However, impatiens always let you know in a hurry if they need it. But, your idea is a good one. Normally, I'd have something planted by now, but we keep getting frost or the possibility of frost, so I've held off. I am very careful to give them a thorough watering. If anything, I tend to think the soil is drying out quickly. I read somewhere that adding humus to the soil might be helpful. Is that worth trying?

Amending the soil is always good! Particularly if your soil is really sandy or really clay-like, amending can help move both of those back towards the happy medium of nice loamy soil which ought to help with your watering.

Another thing that might be causing your problem is the starting mix nurseries use to get the plants started. If it gets dry it takes soaking in water to get it wet again. I try to remove most of the spangum moss type planting mix.
I didn't know Miracle Grow Moisture Control was so toxic.
My soil is 80% sand and 'perks' at 55mph.
This year I'm planting everything in pots and sinking them in the 'sand'. I am also adding http://watersorb.com/about.htm to the MGMC potting mix.
All of the big theme parks have things in pots and sunk in little wells that they can replace totally by removing one and replacing it. These also conserve moisture.
Here we get charged for sewage by the amount of water we use. I'm trying to keep those water bills down.
;)