too much sun, too much shade

I have two big areas of garden that are problem spots. The first gets shade from the house and a stockade fence for most of the morning, then around 1 p.m. gets hit with intense southern sun and heat. Plants rated for sun die there because there's too much shade during the day, but plants rated for shade end up getting fried from the afternoon sun and heat. I'd like an idea for shrubs, perennials, annuals--anything-- that can survive this spot!

The other area is the exact opposite. It gets lots of east sun in the morning, then by about 1 p.m. it gets shaded by the house (no afternoon sun). Shade plants fry from the direct-east morning sun and don't always survive. Sun-loving plants die off because they don't get that hot afternoon sun. We've been told there are some roses that don't mind some shade, but other than that, we're stymied. Help!

By the way, I live in Illinois, cold zone 4-5, heat zone 7.

For the spot that gets the afternoon sun--if sun lovers are dying there, I really don't think it's because of too much shade. Getting hot afternoon sun from 1 PM on they ought to be fine. Maybe slightly less blooms or a bit more leggy than they would be if they had sun all day long, but they definitely shouldn't die. I'd look to moisture and other things, maybe you have a wet area and you're planting things that like it dry or vice versa. For your morning sun spot, I wouldn't plant things that want full shade, I would look for things that say they like morning sun, or want partial shade and those should do fine.

Given all the problems you're having in both these areas, I also wonder what time of year you're doing your planting. If you plant things when the weather's too hot, it doesn't matter if they would normally do well in the area you're planting them in, you'll tend to lose a lot. Transplanting is stressful, and when you do it in hot weather that's just too much for some plants to handle.

I have a situation somewhat similar to yours. On the east end of my house I have several azaleas, a florabunda rose (Betty Boop), Confederate jasmine, daylilies, some clumps of ornamental grass (dwarf Hamlin), Yaupon dwarf hollies, heliotrope, dianthus, clematis, and coneflowers. On the west end I have a florabunda rose (Angel Face), ornamental grass (dwarf Hamlin and Little Bunny), clematis, plumbago auriculata, Montauk daisy, coneflowers, daylilies, shasta daisies, butterfly weed (asclepias tuberosa), May Night Salvia, coreopsis, blanketflower (Little Goblin), Ruellia Brittoniana, Confederate jasmine, Little Joe Pye weed (Eupatorium), African iris, larkspur, rudbeckia hirta, catchfly, achillea millefolium, abeila, butterfly bush (Buddielia davidii), crepe myrtle, Soft Touch compacta hollies (IIlex crenata), and several other plants I can't remember right now). Maybe this will help you with a few ideas. I did add organic matter to the soil before planting all these things and I keep the shrubs mulched.

Many thanks to both of you!

Ecrane3, I try to do all my planting in spring (it can get up into the 90s as early as mid-June), so I at least know it's not that. It does tend to be quite dry in that area, but I try to water thoroughly at least two times a week (three times when it's near 100), plus I use mulch. Still, forsythia gave up in this location. Sedum looks scraggly. The previous owners put in common lilacs--they're pretty sparse at flowering time. Lamium didn't make it. Tall phlox are sparse. This, of course, doesn't count what the rabbits ate, like the rudbeckia (rabbits aren't supposed to like them, but mine do) and a small fothergilla bush I had put in two falls ago (they chewed it down almost to the ground that winter), so I'll never know if they would've worked. You can see why I chose blackthumb1101 as my user name!

NatureLover1950, thanks for your long list of possibilities! I hadn't thought of some of those plants, and I'm going to check the hardiness ratings for the ones I haven't heard of. Maybe there's hope for me yet!

I wonder if your soil needs improvement? The fact that so many plants are doing poorly there tells me maybe the soil could use some amendments or something. Some of the sparseness could be if there's not quite enough hours of sun, things will tend to get leggy, but honestly I have areas of my yard that really don't start getting sun until 12-1 and I grow full sun plants there with no problem, so I really don't think it's the amount of light. The only other thing I can think of is the watering--when you water, it's better to do less frequent, deep watering rather than frequent and shallow, so I wonder if maybe you need to water for longer periods of time when you do water?

Also, you might want to get your soil tested by the County Extension Agent. (It would be listed under County offices under a name such as that). I think you should be able to send them a sample of your soil, and they will tell you where it stands, as far as chemistry, and that should tell a story as to what you need to do to your soil, or what you might rather grow. Of course, the other responses are good too, but this is another angle. Also, do you work compost into your beds?

More good advice! I probably should have the soil tested--it was covered with weeds when we bought the place, and I'll bet it was that way for at least 20 years. I do try to water deeply and not too frequently, the twice/three times a week are during the 90+ temp. days, when everything just seems to curl up and wilt within hours (i.e., most of July and August).

As for compost, I wish I could. I have lower back problems and no one else to do the heaving digging needed to actually incorporate the compost deep into the soil. The best I can do is light surface digging and adding whatever I can (sphagnum peat, bagged compost, etc.) to that top layer, but I am trying!

It does sound like a soil problem. What are your neighbors doing on the other side of the fence? They might be putting something there that leaches into the soil on your side. If you have plants near your foundation, maybe it's too alkaline there. Half-day sun shouldn't cause so many problems. I have hostas that get sun and daylilies that get half shade. Both are happy. Get a ph test kit or send a soil sample to the university extension office. I think their headquarters are in Champaign. How frustrating, I feel bad for you.

Diana

do you have a brick house? i would think the soil in champaign should be some of the best in the country. bearded iris, peony, roses (albas, hybrid musks) should work. the morning sun and afternoon shade might work for some hydrangeas.
How big are the plants that you are planting? can you buy a bigger size? many times that makes a big difference.

Another solution to poor soil and not being able to bend over easily is a raised garden. Of course, the wood to make it might be too hard to work with if it hurts your back, but maybe bricks? You can move them one a time. It sounds like you really need a little help from somebody with a good back. Do you have time to be involved with a gardening club or group - someone you get to know there might be inclined to help you. I live in Nebr. so I can't just run over, but wish I could.

On the other side of the fence is lots of weeds and a gigantic oak tree, though the tree is far away from our backyard. But maybe that tree is part of the problem--I'll bet its roots are sucking nutrients from as far away as our yard (I should've thought of that before). All of you seem to agree that half-day sun shouldn't cause such problems, and that gives me hope. As soon as the soil thaws (months from now, of course), I'll be first in line to get my soil tested!

I bet the oak tree is contributing to your problems--not only is it taking nutrients, but it's also taking water. I would have suggested that earlier, but your initial post just talked about shade from the house/fence so I didn't realize there were trees close enough to potentially cause problems.

So my guess is that in addition to possibly some nutrient deficiencies in the soil, you also probably need to water more since the tree is taking a lot of it. I wouldn't necessarily increase the frequency of watering, what I'd try first is watering for about twice as long each time you do water. You might also want to specifically look for plants that are more drought-tolerant--really thirsty plants are always going to struggle in an area where they're competing with a tree for water, but more drought-tolerant plants ought to do OK. Even drought tolerant plants will need good watering at least the first year they're in the ground so that they can get established.

I read that Epimedium does well in shade and among tree roots. But it's a thirsty plant too.
However tall your neighbors oak tree is, that how far out the roots probably are. I think Oaks are acidic too. I think you're on your way to solving the problem.

Thanks once again, everyone. Our neighbor's tree is, I'm guessing about 40 ft. tall (I wasn't kidding when I said it was big), though it doesn't cast a shadow on our yard (yet). But if you're right that the roots reach out as far as the tree is tall, then I'm definitely being affected by those roots!

I do have some epimedium in a part of my yard that is total shade, but it seems to really dislike even dappled sunlight, so it's a no-go for my two problem spots.

So, time to hit the catalogs and websites--a great way to ignore the 8" of snow staring back at me right now!

Blackthumb, I'm going to ask my daughter what she does for clients with your oak tree problem. She's a landscape designer in zone 5b. She may have some suggestions.

Maybe it might pay to add a few of those water retaining crystals to your planting holes in this case.

Pastime, I'll be checking back here from time to time, so if your daughter has any good advice, please be sure to post it!

blackthumb, I'll be seeing my daughter tonite. Been gone all week taking care of my mother. I'll be sure to get some information for you soon.

I talked to my daughter about your problem. She thinks it's your soil too, not the half sun/half shade problem. Amend your soil with compost to keep it fluffy and from getting compacted, and use mulch to help retain water. Be careful if you use the water crystals. If you use too much your plants will push themselves out of the ground. Those crystals really swell up. I always soak the crystals first to see how big they get before I mix them with the soil.

Thanks to your daughter for her advice, and to all the rest of you who having urged me to get the soil tested. As soon as I can get a spade into the dirt, I'll get that soil sample off to the extension office. Maybe this season won't be such a disaster, and I'll be able to change my name from blackthumb to greenthumb!

Oaks, unlike maples with their fibrous surface roots, are very good to garden under. Oak roots are deep and should cause no problems.

I too suspect you have a problem with your soil. Morning sun and afternoon shade are ideal for many, many plants, but if your soil is very compacted and lacking basic nutrients, nothing will do very well. Get a soil test and begin now adding organic material--leaves, hay, kitchen compost buried in the former, floor sweepings, hair, etc. You can do a type of lasagna bed over the area. If you do this for a year, the improvement will be enormous--and be sure to mulch your plants with something like wood chips that decays slowly and continues to add organic material to the soil.