Anybody use no till gardening?

Re: Tilling

I know next to nothing about tilling. I just started gardening here last year, have a few raised beds and am trying some lasagna beds, too.

But here is what my next-door neighbor told me about his garden, which is about an acre. Although his garden looks fine on the surface, he told me that with the red clay here, he has created a hard pan under his garden and that it gets closer to the surface every year. However, he is nearly 80 and "loves" to drive his tractor around and around out there so that's not going to change.

I noticed that he does till under the plants at the end of the growing season. Then in the spring tills in horse manure. I did wonder if possibly the greens in the fall are just not enough organic matter to combat the hard pan problem from the red clay. Anyone have any experience with this?

Karen

Well there's till with a rototiller and then there's tilling with a tractor. Two different things actually. Depending on what he's tilling with and how deep, I would imagine he does have hard pan. That's where the compaction issue comes in. The clay is not the hard pan, I would think he's created it with the deep tilling with the tractor over years. The clay can be made workable by adding soil amendments and compost, it takes time, but it can be done. I don't know what type of rear tine tiller, paracelsus' is using, But I doubt seriously that either one of us is getting as deep as a tractor can. I happen to have or did have VA red clay. Tough stuff, but over 25 years of adding to the soil with compost, cover crops and amendments I have black loam in most areas. The trick to avoid compaction is to keep the soil aerated by introducing plants that break down over time an introduce air and micro bacteria between the clay particles. If you have air pockets you get the moisture moving on down and that too adds to the separation of the clay. He is tilling in green matter and manure so the top layer of soil is still fairly rich in nutrients. But I'll bet it's not very deep. You want deep, cover crops are a better and longer sustained way to go, especially the vetches. They throw very deep roots systems and are great nitrogen fixers. They can also be a royal pain in the tush to till under for that reason. But it's a start. This is the reason many go to raised beds, its a quicker easier solution to problems with difficult soil.

Another reason that I now favor No-Till method is I hate to disturb the underground workers. I moved into this house in early 1995, and as I have mentioned before it was undisturbed soil except where the large tractors had dug to creat the low area where the cement slabs were poured for the house foundation. I can tell you that it takes a long time for the compaction that a D-6 makes as it travels over the soil. to be returned to loose loam.

So for several years I did use my BCS rear tine tiller to work in green manure and peat moss and compost. Now the sandy based soil is fairly good down to 10 " or so, and below that is sandy loam, and rocks. I feel that at my age it isn't necessary to use a tiller very often. I do use various green manure planting, but mostly just let it decompose with being tilled in.

I saw no sign of earthworms when I first started cultivating the soil here, but now there is a good supply of them, doing their areating (can't spell that word) of the soil. Also have toads and frogs. And I really hated to use my little tiller ,or big tiller ,and see the remains of a worm, toad, or frog left in the soil.

Thats my take on tilling or no-till methods.

Donna

I have clay with rocks and usually till twice at the beginning of the year--once to break up sod or to till under what was left from the previous year and pull up rocks, and the second time about 2-3 weeks later to break up the rotting vegetable matter and pull up more rocks. My neighbor tills very often. His tiller is much larger than mine (mine's your basic 5.5-hp Sears rear-tine, a copycat of the Troy-Bilt). He plants in traditional narrow rows and uses his tiller as a cultivator between them to keep down weeds (I use a hand hoe for weeding and plant in wide short rows). My tiller can go 7 inches deep, but I don't usually go below 3-5 inches. His goes 11 inches, and he goes the full distance. He's been living in that place since it was built in 1947 and tilling that same plot. He also grows a cover crop of ryegrass in fall and winter. His soil is deep and soft and clearly very productive. No hardpan there. He's inspired me to do a cover crop next year where I don't have perennials.

It's possible to use a tiller to very good effect. Yes, it is expensive to buy. But for me, gardening without a tiller would mean a very small garden indeed.

doccat5,

He's not plowing very deep now. I would say about 6-8" maybe. I suspect he used to plow deeper but now he can't because of the hardpan. He acknowledged that his plowing was the cause of the hardpan. I've heard of hardpan, but didn't know what caused it. He doesn't sow a cover crop, just plows under the tomato and bean plants, etc. from that year. Then the garden is bare until spring.

I'm not going to be around in 25 years for this red clay to become decent soil, so that's why I'm doing the raised beds and lasagna beds. This clay is also full of little round rocks. I'm not sure I can handle a tiller big enough to do the job. The little rocks keep coming to the surface all over the clay areas.

Here's a photo of our driveway. You can see the clay and the rocks. The bricks on the side is part of our erosion control project. The gray-colored gravel was put there by the previous owner.

But in any event, you can see the kind of "soil" I'm talking about. There are some patches of fairly decent soil in places over top the clay. There are also patches of nearly pure sand. But 90% of it looks like this in the driveway.

So, in going no-till, it is mostly a question of practicality--what I can and cannot physically do.

Karen

Dean I swear by no till gardening--that's the only way I can keep the weeds down here at bay!
=)
Debbie

Do say more, Debbie. I'm in the process of planting my garden now. This time I went with tilling, but I know I'm going to have problem w/ bermuda and zoysia afterwards. I'm all ears and willing to learn.

Dean--
I'm sure Bubba will agree--down here the weeds are rampant. Everything needs to be mulched as deeply as possible as soon as possible; winter, summer, spring, and fall. Bermuda and nutgrass both are the very curse upon my gardening life--lol
Unfortunately, the only place I have I can do veggie's in is plagued the worse. I have a lot of garden area devoted to some other things and that parts under control better. Mulch, mulch, and more mulch down here. I use grass clippings, pine straw, leaves, and hardwood mulch. It all decomposes and makes great soil---but also great soil for the WEEDS. I'm sure your problems with tilling won't be any worse than mine are--I just don't do it because I don't think I need to. I've been here for about 15 years. The mulch also literally seems to "melt" in front of your eyes down here in the heat of August.
Debbie

glendalekid, you got to do what you got to do. I too have some physical limitations, I woke up one morning and discovered I am no longer 25. What a shock! LOL As for handling a big tiller, I can handle the Horse and it's 800lbs, but will turn on a dime and give you change. Which is one reason we went with the Troy in the first place. Who ever designed the thing knew what he/she was doing. The balance is incredible and is a pleasure to work with. I occasionally have trouble getting the crank start to work for me, so DH rigged me a contraption that I can hook to the starter and use the big elm tree as a fulcrum to get the necessary omph to make it go. LOL I've been know to stop traffic on the road using the thing. I'm about 5'6" tall and watching jaws drop is such a hoot. All you do at the end of the row is raise it slightly and turn. Nothing to it.

Debbie,

I have plenty of leaves I'm going to use as mulch. I also have my compost to add. I guess I'll be picking grass out of the garden beds:(.

You and me both Dean! =)

Debbie,

Do you have a favorite website on the subject? Did you learn it from a book or what?

Thanks for chiming in, Debbie.

I wound up smothering the radishes with the sycamore leaves before the tiny freeze we had, but you should see and taste the cabbage leaves, parsley, cilantro and dill - they love the cold.

The pile if leaves was about 4-5 ft tall when i blew them into the pile a month ago - already less than 2 feet tall now. They go so fast, I don't bother turning them, but did dig out some from the bottom - wonderful "stuff".

Thank you for advising me about leaves 2 years ago.

I have quack grass the equivalent of bermuda etc. It has tempted me to go slightly inorganic on more than one occasion. Goes thru cardboard like tissue paper, but I just keep working on it. I found some horticultural grade vinegar that was recommended, so I'm gonna try that.

Dean I just finally came to the conclusion that if everything wasn't deeply mulched down here you weed constantly. There is an old book by Ruth Stout on no till gardening that's very good--I just use what I have instead of hay.

doccat--I hear you about the grass that will come up thru cardboard, we got a similar variety down here (Bubba, you will recognize our "old friend" nutgrass here). Does really tempt you to nuke it with sometning non-organic just out of sheer frustration!

You know what else frustrates me Bubba? I can't get cilantro at the same time as tomatoes!

I need more mulch constantly--everybody around here has pretty much cleaned up their yards--slim mulch pickings right now. I really try not to have to buy mulch except to keep the front happy for, as I lovingly refer to them as, the "yard nazi's". I grow so many strange bulbs out front that I have to keep that all neatly mulched because they can't tell the difference between real bulbs that are just green winter-growers and weeds. But I've learned if I pile hardwood mulch around them they get the idea--lol

Yeah, I can understand yard "nazi" of course this is not a subdivision and whining ticks off the other neighbors, so there ya go. We all keep hoping he'll move! LOL

doccat5,

Thanks for the advice and info on the Troy. I will keep the Horse in mind as a possible solution down the road. I am 5'5" and 90 pounds and can't believe how long ago I was 25.

I want to eventually get rid of all the grass around the house. Outside the house fence, though, except for a plot to put melons and squash, I'm just going to leave it with the grass and plant patches of annuals and perennials, mostly reseeders, and a lot of bulbs. That area is about a half acre, and I hope that eventually it will be more like a mountain meadow with the flowers among the grass and let it take care of itself.

We have Johnson grass, quack grass, and some kind of nasty grass that spreads underground that I haven't been able to get an ID on yet. Doesn't really matter, I guess, as I just want to be rid of it. Let me know how the vinegar works out.

Karen

Will do and Troy makes smaller tillers as well. We picked the Horse because we were turning fairly large area. DH also does side jobs with it, so it pays for itself. I'll let you know on the vinegar.

Debbie,
There is another "green pest" in the front yard - the famous Houston bitterweed. Even if you can pull or eradicate them in your yard , the next warmup, they popup and grow flowers and seeds in a couple of days, so they blow back in from your neighboors. ARRGGGHHH!

And, in spite of the cats, the squirrels think they are farmers, too. I have several volunteer oak trees that are a different species from what I have planted. Makes me tempted to have a big ole squirrel stew - but I would bet the local law would be at the front door before the second one fell.

Guess it could be worse - at least we don't have deer in the subdivision. But I have seen them near the entrance to the Ft. Bend Tollway at Lake Olympia Parkway several times.

Bubba, honey, I'll bring the corn bread to go with that stew! LOL

Bubba,

Not sure what you are calling bitterweed. You'll have to show me a pic of it. Ragweed's pretty big around here too from the fields. I just pulled up a small "tallow weed tree" from under my beautyberry--first I've seen of them, I better do a 'property check' for more when it stops raining and can walk around. I assume I can blame that one on the birds.

I look to see squirrel stew as a side dish with those Buffalo burgers--sounds like a solution to me. =)

I think I'm going to do some salad lettuces this weekend, I hear it's going to warm up. Try some basil too in case it doesn't freeze any more. I can always go cut it if they predict frost. I miss the taste of fresh basil--and I got tons of seeds.

What are you using for pole beans this year? I can't use the back fence--the subdivision has decided to give us all a new fence--they're buying. Why, you ask? We have no idea, there's not a thing wrong with the fence. Only they haven't quite gotten around to telling us when; probably because they don't know. I have some lattices running 90 degrees off it but connected to it. I guess I better not use them or they'll come in to redo the fence right when the beans are producing--with my luck. I remember when I was in college over at the 'Harvard on the Neches River' a friend of mine used some long fairly thin poles--I guess I need to go look at HD and Lowe's for something temporary this year.
Debbie

Debbie can you make yourself a teepee out of pvc or some type of wooden pole and grow your beans on that?

good idea doccat! Hadn't thought of PVC pipe, it's probably cheaper than wood too!
=)

Could probably recycle the PVC pipe in some other way afterwards too.

Yes, and you can rough it up a bit with some coarse sandpaper, so it will be easier for the vines to grip.

And I have the "take your hide off" grade sandpaper all ready to go in the garage!
=)

Just make sure you get one that's a decent sized diameter and tie it securely. Get one tall enough you can bury the legs a bit, that will give you better support :)

They also sale bamboo poles, they might be cheaper.

My teepee was made from two 8ft 1x6 cedar boards.

I cut them into 3/4in strips, then cut one of the strips in half.

Laid 4 strips on the driveway and spaced them evenly using one of the 4ft pieces for the max width. Then screwed the 4 ft piece to each.

Repeated the process with another 4 long and 1 short piece.

Then laid one with the 4ft on the bottom and the other with the 4ft on top, and screwed the 4 pair at the top. This allowed me to fold the teepee together (more or less flat) for transportation and storage.

Took it to the garden, attached ropes to the outside pairs, spread the bottom about 3.5 ft wide and shoved each side into the ground. Then attached the ropes to stakes driven in to provide support in all 4 directions.

When I first erected it, I did not have the ropes, and our first storm winds, nearly blew it over - I was working fast to secure it - got soaked - LOL.

I will be making another soon - need a dry day to cut the boards. Do you want one? I can cut the pieces and bring to you where we can assemble (I don't have a truck) The pieces fit easily in my Subaru, but not assembled.

Bamboo would work. If you go that way, I would tie them together with some galvanized wire.

I made mine to save money - garden center wanted about $20 for a 6 footer.
Spent about $8 at the lumber yard and had extra pieces.

Bubba, sounds like you've got it down. Do you grow beans on yours? How about cucumbers and small mellons? I guess would have to use a trellis for those.

Bubba, you my kinda gardener ;)

Thanks for the encouragement.

DW bought me an elec tiller for Christmas - gotta break it in soon.

Debbie, Think were are done with freezes for the year?

ahg ahg ahg ( man grunt ) lolol :)
sorry i m a girl so i don't grunt very well
Bubba you have a pic of that teepee ? sure would like to see it . :)
we are clearing an area in our woods for our house, i was thinking of using some of the maple saplings to do a teepee ?
I had an old dead willow tree we took out ,but do to our move we had to take it to the dump ,:((( bummer on that one.
Mother Earth had a good artilce on willow tree branch artwork and teepees for gardeing .
But i think Maple saplings will work too.

You never know with Feb freezes Bubba--the one last week was the hardest we've had, much more so than the first cold snap in Dec. It usually does freeze here for me sometime in Feb--often at the end of the month after having several 75-80 degree days. But you never know, it could stay cool and not reach freezing again too.

I'll try lettuces and basil--I have floating row cover I can use (it doesn't get much use down here, so lasts forever--lol). Since I have tons of seeds its no loss anyway. I wouldn't put out tomatoes or anything real serious yet.

Dean,
The only way I garden is by no till. I have not tilled in 5 years. One year when I had not tilled for 2 years, I had a relative come visit from Texas. They always break up their soil with their tractor. He loves it, it is fun for him and I must say that black dirt is hard as a rock. Anyway he came to Montana on vacation and brought a tiller he was not using. It just happened to be around the time I was getting ready to sow some early plants.

He wanted to try it out in my garden. Well that year I had more weeds than ever. I won't till again.

This is what I do in the spring.... I put down newspaper, straw and shredded leaves in between rows or where I don't want any grass to pop up. They break down over the summer.

Then in the fall I just throw all my shredded leaves and left over straw all over the garden to break down over winter and spring. I throw almost everything back into my garden to break down. Now I have beautiful crumbly soil. I will say, if I had the black gumbo dirt, I would be tempted to till.
DM

DigMontana,

Thanks for the reply. This year I tilled to break up the soil and to pick some more rocks out. I just know I'm going to have a problem w/ grass. In the aisles I put down newspaper and leaves on top. To the rows I added compost which was tilled in. Hopefully, I won't be fighting nature to much.

Dean, my sweet, once the plants start coming up, mulch under them and that will cut your need to weed drastically.

I agree but, with stuff that grows so tightly together it may be tuff. I guess during the warmer months it may be easier growing stuff more spread out.

Well if the plants are close together it works in the same way. The taller plants have a tendency to shade out the weed seeds so them can't germinate. :) Easier on you all around. Are you doing some sunflowers for that little one?

Dean-
No tilling will also greatly improve the clay soil--mulch is the best thing for Texas soil, in my opinion.