Kill or Keep the Aspen?

Hi Everyone,
I'm new here. I love to garden, just the basic cottage garden. We recently moved and I inherited a low maintenance yard which is both good and bad. I'm wanting to transform some areas of the yard to perrennial borders, but am wondering about some challenges. Particularly three Aspen trees in the corner of the yard.

They seem to send out suckers all over the yard and seem to have roots everywhere. I'm afraid if I leave them, nothing else will be able to grow. They are so beautiful, and they are my only shade trees. Any recommendations or experiences with Aspens? I would love to have a tree in the corner, but prefer something that allows for other plants a chance to grow. The border I hope to grow is probably 20 feet from the tree, but even there I find there roots.

Are there any trees that send roots down rather than out, provide shade and allow for other plants to grow? Should I be doing something different to protect my other plants?

Thoughts? Thanks,


This message was edited Dec 31, 2007 5:22 PM

That's how aspens grow--they eventually form groves by sending up sprouts like that. I don't have any so I'm not sure what the best way is to manage them, maybe if you're vigilant about cutting off the sprouts as they come up you can keep them from spreading much farther. If you want to take out the trees and remove all the roots that are in your way, that is going to be enormously expensive so you may want to figure out how to work with them. If you're having trouble digging down into the soil, you might try starting from seeds instead, or buy very small plants from the nursery, that way you don't have to dig big holes. Plants that like dry shade will do the best in a tree's root zone,

Thanks for the response Ecrane. They are about three years old, so I thought if I were to take them out, I should do it soon. I would love to have a tree there, but wonder if Quaking Aspens are the right choice for my yard. I leaning toward no since my yard is of a medium size. The new shoots even come up in the lawn, and I'm sure they must be coming up in my neighbors yards as well.

I'm not sure how big a medium size yard is in Spokane, but if it's similar size to a medium size yard here then aspens probably aren't the best tree because of the way they grow. If you've got an acre or two then they could be very nice, but I'm guessing you're on maybe a quarter acre or so? Most likely the people that planted them didn't understand how they grow and spread. Even if they're only 3 years old though it sounds like the roots have spread pretty far, so it's probably going to be quite expensive to remove them and get up enough of the roots that they don't continue to sprout new trees and also to allow you places where you can dig and plant new trees and other plants. But if you're going to take them out, the sooner the better, as time goes by it's just going to get more expensive!

I would remove the trees now, as much root as possible and either put them into large containers till you know more about the garden, you can care for them in containers for a few years till you decide or give them away, but to be honest, even though you are needing to remove the Aspen, you might need to add some other form of tree for both structure and shade, but then with this experience you have learned, before you grow and plant any trees, you really need to find out the final size both upward and spread before you go ahead and plant, I would get rid NOW, rather than have to cut the tree down as the suckers it is sending out will always be a problem, so dig out while young rather than chop when old and dangerous. good luck. WeeNel.

I really appreciate the advice. We have about a foot of snow out there now, so once the thaw is on, I will start the project. They are currently too large for digging out unfortunately, so I'll have to cut them down.

Someone suggested last fall, when I was hemming and hawing over this predicament, that I cut the trunks, drill holes, put a particular full strength poison into the holes, and as the sap performed its fall trip to the earth, it would take the poison with it to the roots. Is this melarky or could it possibly work?

Since I've missed the season, I'm guessing that I will do as much of the removal as I can myself.
jardinera

If you just want to kill the trees then what you're proposing is fine (although I'm not an expert on killing aspens, I'm not sure whether the poison trick will work on them or not). But if you want to plant other trees near where the aspens were, or if you're having trouble with all the roots that have already traveled through your yard, that's no longer a DIY job. You might want to consider at least having someone come out and grind the stumps for you, that'll help in the immediate area where the trees were, although it still wont' do anything for the roots that are all through the yard.

If they are not a danger to your house, you can try killing them with copper nails or copper wiring. You need to get into the cambium of the tree, but copper will do that job and will not contaminate the soil for future planting. It takes awhile for it too work, but put the copper all the way up and down the tree to make it act more quickly.

My back completely agrees Ecrane on the non DIY project, but my pocket book is not entirely on board. I'm thinking to Sawzall the trunks and roots that I can see digging around the trunk and over the summer work on the tedium of removing as many roots as I can find. Do I sound like a demolition mama or what? I hate to wait for fall to try the poison plan.

I'm very curious about the copper nails idea doccat. I don't entirely understand. Do I cut the tree first and put the nails into the remaining trunk, or do I hammer nails without any tree demolition?

If you take the trees down yourself, it might not cost that much just to have someone come grind the stumps for you.

the fastest way to get rid of the trees IF you cant do what Ecrane said and cut/grind the stumps. cut the tree to about 4 inch above ground level, drill large holes into the stump, use an old icing bag etc, and pour into the drilled holes a product called stump clear/killer buy from the garden center/diy store, you then cover the trunk with a polythene cover to keep rain out, birds and animals from pecking it out (poisonous) and after a couple of years, the trunk starts to rot, all the way to the roots, for really large trees, you may need to repeat, but it works, heard good reports from people who have used it, used it because equipment was unable to be used to grub out the roots without damage to property. Good luck. WeeNel.

You drive the copper into the tree trunk. It's an old trick.

Thanks everyone. Since I have three, I may experiment and see what method is most effective. I'll let you know what I find out.

At our old home, our soil was super sandy. My husband removed seven pine stumps and one unknown deciduous by digging a hole almost to North Korea, taking his saw deep into the hole and cutting the trunk root where it narrowed, attaching the remaining trunk via heavy chain to our old jeep and popping it out. Then he filled the soil back in the four to five foot hole! There were a lot of raised eyebrows and curiosity walks among the neighbors as we fixed up that woe begotten house. It was sure worth it in the end.

Unfortunately, our soil here, about four miles away from the old place, is clay and about two feet deep before you hit bed rock. I don't think the same method would work here.
Thanks for all the help!

Hi, Jardinera.

Thanks for posting that question. I also live in Spokane and we recently bought a new house with no backyard landscaping. I was planning on planting quaking aspens but will think twice now. Our soil is also the clay/rock combination that you have. I'm new to gardening, especially in the inland northwest, so any other advice you can give as far as what works well here and what doesn't, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!

Diane

I would recommend Zelkova serrata 'Green Vase' (I don't know how to add a HYPERLINK but you can search for it in 'Plant Files') for a shade tree. See if it works in your zone and soil type.

Shrubbs, I so appreciate the tip on Zelkova serrata. It looks like a beautiful tree. We are a cold zone five here, so I will double check with a local arborist. Hope this is a good choice. I love the branching habit of the Zelkova and green in summer, red/orange in fall. Nothing I like better in the fall than gorgeous red and orange. I don't know many people that are familiar with trees, shrubs and the options out there - I know that I am clueless, so I appreciate the direction.

Diane, so great to know you are here. I bet you are up on five mile with me or some place similar. It is the strangest soil we have here. So mucky and thick with clay. I've NEVER gardened with soil like this. I would love to see if there are any threads on cottage gardening amid the clay. I know I have to amend the soil, but I definitely don't know what I am doing. Down the hill from us, they have wonderful sand, deep as oil pits, and that's bad for water retention, but in my mind easier to amend.

No problem.

As for your soil - try amending the soil with sand and peat moss. Make sure that you mix it in well with the top 6-8" of existing soil. Also, install at least 1" of screened topsoil (only if you want too). The topsoil helps by adding a small amount of organic matter instead of a large amount of organic matter at once (various opinions on this matter). To much organic matter in your soil can be a bad thing for private landscaping (in the woods the trees don't care - things grow differently). Dig a hole at least 2' deep and see if the soil is mottled (various colors). If so - keep your plants high. The mottled soil means that the oxygen content in your soil is very low (holds lots of moisture, but not always wet). The nice part is that most plants get all of their nutrients from the top 3" soil so the clay soil is good for anchoring roots.

I had my parents remove 1' of soil from their foundation because of the same soil problem. Their plant material grew no more than 6" in seven years (the Hollies were suppose to put on 3-6" of growth a year). Now things are looking awesome.

Wow Shrubbs! This is great advice. I'm kind of worried about the plants I've already sunk in the yard. Our builder said (and this will probably be an issue for a tree) that we would be surprised about how little top soil is in our yard! That they had to blast bed rock to finish the basement. (I believe we are on solid basalt here) Not such good news for me - though I'm so surprised and glad to learn that many plants value that top 3in. I planted some roses and dug an extra large hole filling it with mulch and then the rose. Should I do something different? I'm afraid that the clay, it was gray and saturated when I saw it in my front yard, will act like a bowl and keep the water from draining. My yard is on an automatic sprinkler system, so I'm not sure what kind of equation this will add up to.
If you were landscaping my yard, what do you guess you would do? Our house sits on the highest place on the lot and the yards gently slope away from it to the edges. We end up with a trough of water and then moss at the edge of our lawn and start of my perameter raised beds. I had thought to bring in a load of top soil to dress the beds this spring. Doesn't peat moss hold water? Will adding soil kill existing perrenials like Delphinium and Caradonna Salvia?
Off the subject: Will the neighbor's arbovitae hedge directly behind the fence dividing our properties prohibit any kind of perrenial border on my side of the fence (water competition and roots)? Of course I really wanted to grow perrenials right there (and everywhere else).
thanks for your insight Shrubbs.

Glad to help.

First, roses and their care is based on the type of rose. Hybrid T roses are high maintenance and require superb growing conditions for a healthy plant where as shrub and climbing roses don't need as much care (wet and roses are not good for any rose). As long as you used finely ground compost you should be okay.

Second, the soil could be a problem. I would consider making berms for your plant material, but also consider the direction your water wants to flow. If you need to build a berm in front of a path that water takes you want to make sure that you grade the area to shed the water around the berm, install a 4" pipe for the water to flow through the berm, or install a drain box to direct the water underground to the location of your choice. The fact that the existing grade slopes away from your house is superb. Water in the house is much worse to deal with. Also, make sure that your downspouts from your gutters are run underground to the edge of you property or to a runoff swale.

Third, always remember that your lawn has a different watering schedule then your plants. Lawns really only need about 1" of water a week to live (based on 4" of topsoil - less topsoil requires a little more, but I am not sure how much). Plant material is based on the plants needs which can vary greatly. You want to make sure that you have zones for your lawns and zones for your planting beds. Emitters are the best for plant material because it focuses the water on the individual plant and not the bed as a whole.

Fourth, too much peat moss (organic matter) can be bad so follow the direction on the bag. The peat moss helps break up the clay and adds organic matter to the clay at the same time.

Fifth, if you have special requirement perennials then make sure you remove them before you renovate your planting beds. Sometimes renovation is the only way to make things better. It takes time and money, but it is worth it!

Sixth, I would need to see a picture of the wet area where the moss and water are before I could give you any ideas with that. Sometimes we need to keep an area like that in our yard so that the rest of the yard will look great. I have a swale behind my house that will look like that. I plan on doing some small plantings to draw the eye without affecting the need of the swale.

Seventh, the neighbors hedge is a pain for roots. The best part is if you cut all the roots and add great soil the Arb. roots will grow back in and be very happy. But, there is hope! Remove the lawn in the area and dig a 6" deep trench. Line the trench with a solid border like timbers that is a total of 8" high (6" in ground and 2" above ground). Create a small raised bed so that it will be a long time before the Arb. roots get into your planting bed. The only thing you want to watch out for is build up the mulch that the Arb. roots will make their way over the border you created.

Here are the best questions to ask yourself before installing any plant material:
1. How big do you want the plant material to get?
2. How much sun does the area you are looking to install your plant material (determine also direction of north then look at the shade movement)?
3. What kind of soil is in the area (pH is good, but soil type (clay, sand, etc.) is better when dealing with general landscaping plant material)?
4. Does the area hold water or drain quickly (soil type can determine this, but elevations of the existing grade is a key factor)?
5. If water is an issue can it be diverted (and how should it be diverted) or does it need to be used in the landscape?
6. How much maintenance do you want (no landscape is maintenance free)?

Here is a picture a landscape I designed in sheer bedrock. Everything has 2-4' of topsoil. Hope this helps. Let me know if I need to clarify myself (slightly dyslectic).

Image 2

All the plant material was installed at the sizes you see in the picture.

This message was edited Jan 8, 2008 3:42 PM

Wow! What gorgeous work you have done! Its going to take me awhile to digest this last email. So much great help! For better or worse we have about a foot of snow outside right now, so I guess I'll continue with research and planning mode. I would love to show you pictures of the yard when you can see it and tell you what we ended up doing. Our flower beds around the perimeter of the yard are raised berms and actually were planted mainly with shrubs like Burning Bush, Red Twig Dogwood (?), Spirea and such.
I've been volunteering at an own root Rosarium in the area and transplanted some roses from my old home. Most of these are either in the berms, or I attempted to amend the soil. I planted some at the base of the Aspens, a big mistake I guess since they surely competed for water.

Our beds are watered by an overtaxed microdrip system. I was thinking next year to switch this over to sprayers, our water guy said that at least the front beds could be changed in this way allowing for more drips int he back yard.

I've added a number of perrenials and will wait now to amend the soil and remove the trees. I have a full, full sun location. The sun travels over the spine of our home and the shadows hug the house giving only a narrow cast to the front yard. I'm kind of bummed since I love hosta, but will branch out to other plants.
Gotta run. One year old octopus on the loose aka little TJ my son.

Jardinera, you're right. I'm up on five mile too. How about this snow? I guess it allows a lot of time for me to do some research too. You say you're new to gardening, but you sound like a pro! I'm going to keep watching this thread because I'm learning volumes. : )

Diane

Thank you for the compliment on the design. The total job took 4 months to complete.

It sounds like you have everything under control (except TJ). I am looking forward to my 2 1/2 month old daughter getting on her feet. Having a plan before you install any landscaping or hardscaping is the best idea.

And...don't get frustrated because a true gardener is always experimenting with new ideas and changing the landscape. : )

Hey Diane, I'm not new to gardening, just completely new to this terrain and feel out of my element. I had the chance to create a garden in the Shadle area and another in the Indian Trail area, but the soil in the areas surrounding these plateaus in Spokane are super sandy. I've heard of various pockets of different soil here and there, but largely sand. Our area and geological features were formed through the breaking of the Columbia ice dam. Not sure if I have the name correct, but it was the ice dam that formed north of montana by the Columbia glacier. I may have some facts wrong, just going from the top of my head from what I recall. I watched a program on it a Grand Coulee Dam - just fascinating. Anyhow, don't know if you have seen the thread about Eastern Washington Scablands, under Pacific Northwest? It has some photos of different geological features formed from that mammoth flood. Spokane's geology is a direct result of this tidal wave/flash flood of water. The water scoured bed rock like we live on, and left glacial silt below like the majority of the city sits on.
So, we've got a mixed bag for gardening, but good for any earthquakes :), just a little more info needed for gardening. I can't believe that farmers have found soil to grow crops up here! It is a veritable rock/clay garden.
I'm totally new to Dave's Garden and have so appreciated the help of other's who have more experience with this medium than I do.
What kind of garden do you want to grow? Are you putting in a yard? I know there are so many new homes up here with lots of landscaping to be done.

This message was edited Jan 9, 2008 9:01 PM

This message was edited Jan 19, 2008 5:04 PM