Drainage help please, any suggestions?

Hi all,
We just bought this house last year, our backyard is pretty small since we have a large lanai out back along with a tall oak tree, there is basically 5ft from the wall of the house to the wood fence. When we arrived there was scattered grass growing around, very patchy. Me with bright ideas and not thinking thought that I could put down all new sod, which I did painstakingly all by myself one weekend, 3 months later the Florida rainy season hit and all the grass is dead. It's now scattered grass and mud again. I would really love to put either stepping stones with dichondra (grass alternative) or completely pave the backyard because I am so sick of the mud but I'm worried that we need a french drain or something first. I had a contractor come out and assess the situation, but his suggestion was a $3200 french drain put in all around the house leading to the front street. I can manage about $1000 - $1500 but $3200 is a bit too steep for us just now....if anyone has any suggestions as to what could help I would be very greatful for direction. Also we have a dog so she has helped with the problem of making a track through the grass and ultimately killing it.

This is right near one of the drains that comes off the lanai.

Here's another picture of one of the sides of the house at the back. Mind you this is straight after it has rained, but lasts at least 1-2 days.

And yet the other side of the house, as you can see I have to keep some of my roses in pots because of the standing water. We did install gutters on the house, and thought this would help, which it did a little, but the standing water is not from run-off, it's just from rain.

This is the area under the oak tree, all the grass died and it is now just mud and dead grass and oak leaves.

Here is a sad picture of when I planted the new sod. Sad because all that hard work went to waste, even after watering it every day for the first month and every second day for the month after that....3 months and it all but the edges died....when the rains came.

We would love to keep some grass since it looks so nice with grass.

Honestly, even if you put in the french drain I think you're going to have a tough time getting grass to do well in the shade of the oak tree. That's just not an ideal environment for grass, it's always going to tend to be a little sparse and will get muddy when it rains even if you get rid of the standing water.

As far as the drainage--if you're a good DIY'er, you might be able to do the french drain yourself, the trickiest part is figuring out where to route the water to (you don't want to route it onto your neighbor's property since that can get you in trouble), and making sure that you know where the lowest points are so that you actually collect the water you want to. The rest of it is just back-breaking labor! Maybe you could have the pros design it so you know that those parts are right, then you do the hard work and save yourself some money.

I agree with Ecrane about the grass not good idea under the large tree, it is just too shady, the tree will also suck all the water from the grass that you spent so much time watering, also she is right about doing a drain without the proper knowledge is not a job for a novice unless you find the run off levels etc, you could end up creating much worse problems, either for yourself or your neighbours, your soil looks really hard packed all around the house and this will cause all the water to sit without draining into the soil, then again, it may well be that you are on a clay bed, there are various reasons for the water not being able to drain away properly, so maybe you need to investigate why this is the case before you spend a lot of money on either a contractor or DIY as this could be the first place to start, then after you discover what is causing the problem, you have a better idea of what is the best way to fix it, it may also be the case that you did not prepare the soil properly in the area you wanted your new yard area to grow grass, it is not just lay the turf onto the soil, you need to level the area, rake the soil to a fine bed at least 2/3 inches deep and scatter a grass root feed all over that before you lay your new sod, this gives the grass roots somewhere to get it's roots into, I would say that after 3 months, the grass roots should have got a hold of the under soil and been putting down lots of new roots. I know this may sound like I am trying to put you off trying to do the work yourself, especially after all your hard work before, phew|||||| no wonder you feel so despondent, but please dont, you have worked so hard, there will be a solution out there somewhere, I would encourage you to go to your library or book store and look for books on landscaping and ideas that will cover your very situation, you may not be able to do all the work yourself, but at least when you ask a professional for advice, you will know what they are talking about and not feel you are being asked for too much money for the job, it may well be that once you read up on the problems you have, you can in fact do it all by yourself, I feel so bad for you after all your work, but maybe once you learn what is needed, you can sort out a bit at a time rather that all the work in one go, that way you learn and you gain confidence too. wish I could help you more, good luck. WeeNel.

you'll never keep grass back there, with the dog or otherwise, because it is too small an area. i would not pave it because the water has to drain somewhere and you certainly don't want it running in your house. maybe a path of rounded river pebbles or spaced out stepping stones.
since the backyard is very small, I would remove any downspouts in the backyard. Since your house probably has a much larger surface area than your backyard, even with a couple of other downspouts placed around the house, I'm sure it overwhelms the backyard. if your front yard is larger and open to the street i would let all the water be removed from the roof to the front of the house so it can wash in the street and down the city rainwater sewers. (if you have a paved drive, preferably over that and then to the street and not making a creek out of your front yard.) if you have a corner downspout on the garage side probably pointing in the yard, turn to point into driveway.

Try making a peppermint lawn? :D

The stuff spreads like a weed, nothing kills it to my knowledge, and it smells nice when you walk on it. Of course, you may have to mow it more often than grass - I don't know.

Freaky stuff grows like kudzu - and my lawn is made of clay, a drainage nightmare like yours! I'm glad we're moving - but prior to the move, mint has been the best thing for the yard.

-Sev

Hello Dorothy here
Sorry your grass and hard work went down the drain (or didn't..as the case may be..;0) I think I would take the quick and cheap route and use the money I have to spend on landscaping elsewhere on the property. Consider purchasing some real pretty colored gravel (we call it chapel hill gravel here ..but it is a small roundish pea gravel) so that even with heavy rain, your land will drain. Fill up the space with the gravel ..it isn't that wide. The gravel will help to keep the stray weeds down. You could set pavers in the gravel as stepping stones ..or if you want to invest a little more, you could use small flagstones... If you have your heart set on some grass, use treated wood in small frames and plant the wood form with small grass squares... . but I think you will need to dig out the ground where the wood frame would go..get rid of the soil and fill with soil mix that would support a good stand of grass.. that involves digging..and fillng... and you'd have to dig it deep enough so that the wooden frame is flush to the ground for easy walking.. I guess you could frame with anything suitable if you don't want wood... the frame would prevent the water from flooding the sod filler or would prevent seed run off if you use seed instead of sod.. The gravel path all around the squares would suck up the running water from the rains. I guess my suggestion must sound lazy and not very imaginative, but you've got a tough spot there. The gravel path (grass squares or not) could lead to that corner shown in one of your photos. You could plant a small tree there or put a fountain or small pond or some other type of destination feature. The other option is to make a raised 'boardwalk' around the house over the muddy areas. It isn't hard nor expensive unless you use that Trex stuff. Just set posts in the ground at a height a few inches off the ground (opposite each other) spaced appropriately and running the length of where you want the boardwalk. Then nail running side boards the entire length. Once done. nail flat wood going across from side to side all the way down the path. You could curve it or go straight. the wood going across the top should vary in width so it looks kind of 'ragged' edged to give interest and not look so rigid. All along the boardwalk on each side you would have the gravel to suck up the water when it rains (the walkway of course rides above the wet ground by 4 inches or so) and you could place pots all along or do anything you want with those side areas... decorative art pieces etc.

Thank you everyone for your input, it is extremely helpful with the ideas.

ecrane3 and Wenell I think your both right about grass not growing there, I think I personally have already given up on that idea.

Len123, I really like your idea about taking out the downspouts, although because they come off the Lanai (patio) which is lower than the actual roof, I don't think I can just take them away all together, except the 1 on the side which is a downspout from the main roof...taking this one away hopefully will divert the rain to run towards the front of the house downspout. (I will call the guy that installed them to ask if he thinks it's a good idea). As for the two downspouts directly off the patio, I was thinking that maybe if I put a small rainbarrel under them that the downspouts can go directly in, I could collect the water and use to water my garden...tell me if this sounds good or bad? So now that will stop the extra rain pooroff from the roof....what to lay instead of grass?

I had thought maybe stepping stones and dichondra as a grass alternative (I was told not to put all pavers/stones etc, or the dog won't know where to go potty and end up doing it on my patio because she wont be able to tell what's "outside". So a little stip of green would be ideal. I saw a picture on here of someone that used dichondra which looked great between stepping stones http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=1126898
do you think this would work in my backyard with stepping stones in between so the dog doesn't create her famous track?

Sevidra I've never heard of peppermint lawn, do you have a link for it so that I can look into it, it sounds wonderful. Maybe I could use this instead of Dichondra, I just know that Dichondra works in my backyard since I have a few spots of it growing (not sure how it got there?) but they grow in the shadiest part right now.

Missingrosie, wow, some great ideas you have, I'm kind of a bit weary of putting all pea gravel down, I know it would look nice but I'm scared if I put down the gravel between stepping stones I would create still nowhere for the water to go and it would bring the mud up through the gravel and I'd be left with icky gravel after the rains, also one thing I'm not still sure about is that at this time of the year those darn acorns start falling all over the backyard....and in the fall it's the leaves, if I have pea gravel, I'm not sure how I'd be able to clean it up and I'd be worried that after a few weeks it would look horrible with so many leaves, acorns and mud......has anyone out there ever tried putting heaps of gravel down and that solved a similar problem to mine? I can't really blow it away with the blower since they are small nor could I suck it up with the vacuum and the leaves aren't big enough to rake.....hmmmm so confusing.

Oh as for the raised boardwalk, this sounds quite a cool idea, although my backyard is not at all uniform, it would be a nightmare to create a path, it ranges from 2' wide to 5' wide in different places and with the tree in the middle, I think that is a little bit too much above my ability.

Please everyone keep the ideas and suggestions coming.....I'm still hopefull that it will oneday be a beautiful backyard again!

Thank you again to all your help.
Samantha

Hi Samantha
That is the fun/benefit of DG --getting all the ideas and the experiences (good and bad) of the members. And you can see by the responses you have received, everyone is happy to give attention and time to your post.

I don't have problems with the leaves in NC on gravel... they blow off just fine. I lived in Fort Lauderdale (teen years and early married years) and if my memory serves me right..plenty of dry weather for leaves to dry off and blow well. Acorns not a real issue for me here, my problem is the small nuts that fall off the trees. They blow off too, but on the cement and pavers the darn things stain. It seems the brown spots start after only one day of nuts laying on the cement. That is why I liked the gravel...no stains. I haven't had any issues with dirt coming up through the gravel BUT neither do I have really wet seepy muddy areas. Doggie issues: We lost our Rosie to splenic cancer.. but while we had her, she had no problems understanding where to do her business... Around the property we have a large cement pad, concrete pavers, wood decking, flagstone, and gravel (and just plain ole woods) and Rosie always knew the people areas vs the OK to poop areas :0 ) It wasn't something that got confused. We've only had three dogs so not experts with those issues.
I have seen the raised walkway done on TV. The distance between the two side rails is always the same..it doesn't matter how wide or narrow your actual space is...in the widest areas the actual boards that span the two side rails (the boards you walk on) get wider (meaning they hang over the two running side rails more than when they are traveling through tighter areas). I will see if I can find a photo. I think if the idea isn't appealing, obviously that should be the decision maker because installing the walkway isn't more than a day's job. It isn't hard if you rent a post hole digger and with your landscaping budget it should cover it. I think the neat thing about this is that to the right and the left of the walkway you could plant whatever suits you.. you could make raised beds over time... or bog areas if you have a 'will not dry out no matter what' area.. install trellis to the right and left and grow things, or may an arbor over certain parts with trellis.. etc. If I find what I am trying describe I will send it to you. Meanwhile ..I think your idea about the rain buckets is right on. you could use a rain chain too. The only thing I wonder about (anybody have any experience?) is the mosquitos..do they breed in those barrels? Here is a photo of a wooden walkway (expensive!!) and not raised.. also these walkways are even width all the way..the raised walkway the width would vary with your space... http://www.misterboardwalk.com/news.ivnu

This message was edited Nov 1, 2007 7:42 PM

Dogs can be trained (at least some of them!) When I lived in Ohio I had grass and my dog knew that's where he was supposed to do his stuff, but when I moved here, my first house had river rocks and a cement patio and courtyard, and within about 2 days he knew that the river rocks were OK to do stuff on but the cement patio and courtyard and the mulched garden beds were not meant for that. Then I moved, and had grass briefly at the new house, but ripped it all up and used fine crushed gravel for the "lawn" part, and he immediately understood that was where he was supposed to go, not on cement or on my wood deck.

If you do want to put in some lawn alternative though, I'd go with dichondra over mint because of the part shade situation--mint likes sun, so if you put it in part shade it'll be more sparse and leggy rather than a nice compact groundcover. Not to mention it spreads horribly and can be very hard to get rid of once you plant it. It'll wind up in your neighbors' yards too not just yours, and they may not appreciate it even if you're OK with it!

Looking it up briefly online, here are some links:

Discussion of peppermint (and chamomile) being used instead of grass http://www.spotlight.com.au/Discussion_Boards/gardening/instant_garden_decorating?threadid=149431

http://www.mountainvalleygrowers.com/oreganolawn.htm They recommend creeping oregano. It is nicer to walk on than peppermint if you're barefoot, but peppermint smells better, in my opinion.

http://www.pfaf.org/leaflets/ediblawn.php discusses various plants that can be used. They don't mention mint, but they do mention a couple that take wet soil pretty well.

http://www.life.ca/nl/40/herbs.html lists corsican mint, and says his grows best under the drain pipes where it gets flooded (seems a likely candidate!).

If you find you can't grow even herbs in your soil, you could always start a rice paddy! :D

I'm lazy. Digging drainage ditches, aside from affecting the neighbors, would be too much work for me. I'd rather just grow plants that work with what I have.

Of course, it means pots for the plants that can't. So it might be worth the ditches.

You could also, if you're willing to do the work, start mixing hay, wood shavings, and other slow-to-dissolve rottables into the soil. It'll take a few years of work, but you'll get much better drainage out of that than you have now. And yes, if you plant mint, you'll have it everywhere. The more you mow, the more you grow - it can be rather scary.

You can always use that woven black fabric ground cover on the pathways to stop the gravel being mixed into your SOIL pathway when it rains, with a wood, brick or stone edge, the gravel wont get thrown about so much when the dog frolics about the area, you can do the same under wood chip too, the edging will keep it in place, the woven fabric on a pathway helps prevent weeds growing, if they do, they are really easy to pull out if you do this when they are still small. I would say though, you should select the size of gravel and woodchip carefuly, too small, they can get stuck in between the dogs foot pads and can cause some amount of discomfort if you dont notice till the dog had a real sore paw, we had this happen with one of our dogs when we first moved to our garden, some dogs are not troubled by this at all, just thought it was worth a mention, If you do go for paths or partly, then you could always scrape a bit off the top surface hard packed soil to cause a very slight slope away from the house so that rain will flow away from your property, perhaps digging a border either side of the pathway will break up enough soil which will take some of the rain when it gets so heavy, a border will take a good bit of the water and help get rid of a lot of the run off water. hope this helps a bit, you are doing the right thing by taking your time to really think about all the pros's and con's. take on board what Ecrane said about the mint, this plant spreads by underground runner roots and will pop up everywhere there is room, it holds no bounds. good luck. WeeNel.