Planting trees and lot line

I just moved in to a house and was about to clear some bushes. I found out that my neighbour has planted 5 sapplings of White pine [now about a foot high] exactly on the lot line [I had the property staked]. I told him to please move the trees in to his side by a foot or two to avoid issues in the future. Am I correct in saying this, or are there any suggestions as to how far away they should be planting their trees from the lot line?
Thanks.

If they're exactly on the lot line, meaning that half the trunk is on your side and half is on his, then you may be able to get him to remove them. But if the whole trunk is on his side then there may not be much you can do. Some cities and HOA's may have rules about this though that would force people to plant farther back from the lot line, so it wouldn't hurt to ask about it. With trees like that which are going to have low branches, they should ideally be far enough from the lot line that when they reach their mature width they still wouldn't be on the lot line (in case you wanted to build a fence or something like that just over your side of the line). With trees that just have branches up high you can plant closer to the lot line, but then the neighbor generally has the right to prune any branches that overhang onto their property, as long as the pruning doesn't kill the tree.

If you find out there's nothing you can do to make him move the plants, and he won't agree to move them on his own, I'd put up a nice fence there just on your side of the lot line now before the trees get bigger and eliminate that option.

If they are on the lot line, when they get bigger they will be over the lot line. I think you were right in bringing this to his attention. Sometimes people don't think of those things and appreciate being told.

ecrane and digmontana

Thank you for the replies. Yes I did want to avoid problems when the trees do grow bigger and start occupying 3 to 4 feet on my side of the lot. I hope he understands as to where I am coming from and will move the trees further in to his lot, so that they do not start spreading out in to my side.
Thanks

It'll be more than 3 or 4 feet--probably more like 10 or so. When they're mature, they're pretty wide, so unless he's planning to limb it up by pruning off the bottom branches it'll be encroaching quite a lot onto your property.

You might also think about, and discuss with your neighbor, more integrated ideas for making both sides of the property line attractive to each other while you are at it. He/she/they might find your ideas attractive. I assume that your neighbor wants a screen/privacy, but may not have thought of how to do this attractively. As the pines are still young, a joint project that uses most of these pines along with other plants to provide a screen that provides more year-round interest to both sides of the property line might make a potentially confrontational start to neighborly relations and turn it into a positive. You may find your neighbor unwilling, but you may also find a good first step to good relations.

The reality is, even if your neighbor sets the pines back, your going to have to integrate them into your landscaping plans anyway, as you will have that as a backdrop unless you want to plant your own dense, tall screen to block your view of the pines.

I'd also amplify ecrane3's comments. You should probably try to identify what species of pine, or even ask your neighbor what cultivar was planted, so you can find out what the mature dimensions are going to be. You may find that even the mature radius of 10' is an underestimate.

Thanks to one and all. I have not yet heard from the neighbour. Hope we will be able to work it out. Appreciate your input.
Cloverman

Hi cloverman. I'm in the same boat, but going a different direction. My neighbors have a large White Pine (30 y.o.+) just over the line on their side. The folks who lived ther a couple years ago decided to 'trim' it up as they prepared to sell the house. They cut all the lower branches off, which shaded part of my yard and prevented snow from building up on a walkway. I said something about it and they seemed to think they were doing me a favor, I guess.

They moved, and now the new neighbor wants to cut it down entirely, because some of the branches touch his house. I told him that tree saves me money, it shades a large part of the back of the house, and of course I have some shade-loving plants back there that will probably get fried with the tree down. We get along well, and I've been teasing him about wanting to kill such a beautiful tree. I told him how I just head back the few errant branches around Christmas time and make a wreath and some garland for the house. So far, so good.

The branches can get even longer than ecrane mentioned - this tree is probably 35' high and 30' wide at the remaining lower branches. Just take a good long look at what they'll look like in the future. Maybe they're something you'd like. I agree that it would be better if the trees trunks are entirely on your neighbor's side though. Then if they die or need to come down for some other reason, it's his problem.

Just another perspective.

Another thing to consider is the fact that somewhere down the road, these trees will be dropping LOTS of pine cones! Our next-door neighbor in the house we sold about 3 years ago had a line of pines right on the line and every year we ended up having to pick up big bags of pines cones so we could mow our lawn. NOT fun! No close neighbors here in our new house and boy do we LOVE it!

Another thing to consider when you have a FRIENDLY chat with your new neighbour is this, you cant just take into account the top growth of the trees you plant, you must also consider the root spread, now I don't wish to worry you, but the best way to find a good spot for a tree and no damage to property is, to look for the MATURE spread and height of the trees, then that gives you the distance that the roots of each tree will travel as it matures, people don't think about the final root spread till the walls or driveway starts to lift up because the roots do that, maybe you could go to the local library and get a book on trees so you can give an illusion the full scale of the mature pines he has planted and the root spread they will have once they fully mature, either way, he has no right to impose this worry and ruin future plans for your own yard/garden, even if only half the roots grow in his garden, then nature tells you, the other half of the roots HAVE to grow into your lot, he needs to consider this IF he has a huge claimer from your household for structural damage because you warned him of the consequences of his actions, if need be, get it all in writing or if all else fails, legally that he will be held responsible for any drain water pipe or structural damage arising from the trees being planted too close to the boundary of your property, hopefully he has not even thought about these points and you can sort this out in a friendly manner, but better now that 5 years later and he has pos moved on and your left with large bills for repair work. good luck, hope he can see the sense that these are baby trees for now, but find a picture of a mature tree to impress him of his mistake. Weenel.

Two other thoughts: 1) If your property is in an older development, there is a good chance you may have some utilities running along the property line (eg: electric or telephone line either above or below ground). If this is the case, then there will be a portion of the property considered as an easement. You own it and tend it until the municipality decides to do something with it. If there are utilities, there will come a day when someone decides to dig up or tear down anything the homeowner has placed that obsructs this easement. This includes large trees. This work is usually at the expense of the property owner. If a large tree sits on the property line, the two property owners will share the cost of removal, trimming, etc.
2) In some states, property lines are subject to the concept of "adverse possession." One usually sees this happen in rural settings over disputes caused when fence lines were origionally set and modern positioning technigues show the origional survey to be inaccurate. Still, there have been cases where urban neighbors dispute a property line and the concept comes into play. Basically, if a property owner uses part of another's property over a set period of time, and the second owner protests but does nothing to change the situation, the first property owner can have the line moved in his favor. Crops are included in this definition of use. In ten or so years, you may decide to sell your property. Depending on the laws of your state, your neighbor may be able to claim the "line" that has now been established as by his planting. It has happened elsewhere. I would ask if adverse possession might apply where you live. boru

Since the trees were just planted, the rule on adverse possession wouldn't apply yet, it has to go on for some period of time (generally years) before that rule comes into effect (otherwise someone could wait until their neighbor was on vacation for a few weeks, plant some stuff on the neighbor's property, and then claim the land is now theirs). I never got the impression though that the trees were on Cloverman's property, just that they were planted barely on the neighbor's side of the line and the concern was over where the branches were going to spread to as the trees grow. Branches overhanging a neighbor's property can't be used as grounds for adverse possession, just where the actual trunk of the tree is.

.UGH, lot lines!!!!!!!!!!!!! I live in MA and whoever puts up a fence has to place it TWO FEET on their own land so it is not on the lot line. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, but my neighbor who put up a fence, insists on traveling onto my lot to mow his two stupid feet of grass. It's so petty and ridiculous, but we put a BIIIIIIIIIIIG smile on our faces and wave every time. I have lived in MA all my life, and have never encountered anyone who crossed their fence to touch up their two feet of land... We have no privacy with this fence. It would have been better to TALK TO US and put it on the lot line. I'm sure many people will say I am out of luck, but I say it is JUST NOT NEIGHBORLY to put up a fence and then cross over it to mow 2 feet of grass. You'd have to live here to appreciate my meaning...

"UGH, lot lines!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I couldn't agree with you more! Whenever it comes to sharing a property line, the person that said "good fences make for good neighbors " had it about right. Let's just hope his fence was built according to local codes and he got a good survey of the lot line done first. Ecrane3 is correct that adverse possession is a process that takes some time (usually 10-15 years) before it is applicable. In using the illustration about selling the property in ten years, I was alluding to this time frame as well as pointing out a real life situation when adverse possession can affect either the seller or the buyer down the road. We often plant trees, shrubs, etc with the idea that we will be the ones to enjoy them. Too often, though, a property is sold well before the plant reaches full growth. What seemed a good idea when we planted becomes a major headache for the subsequent property owner. Just as we do not wish to pass problems with a house on to a new owner, we should not pass on to new owners disputes with the neighbors. Cloverman should resolve this now with an eye to what the property will be like in ten or more years. Since the neighbor planted the trees "exactly on the property line," half of the tree already belongs to Cloverman. That means he also now owns half of any liability that may ensue if years from now a strong wind topples one of the trees into his neighbor's house. Insurance companies are well known for getting others to share liability if there is any remote possibility to do such. The neighbor is being thoughtless in his planting. If it were me, I would offer to help the neighbor relocate the trees as tactfully as possible, but I would insist that they move at least two or more feet. boru

My previous home had full grown white pines and it's true that they were 25- 30 feet wide. The roots were exposed in places (a good distance from the trunk) and I often "barked" them with the lawn mower. Another point to consider is that very few things can grow under pines due to the pH of the soil or the nutrients the tree demands from the soil. Even grass was very sparse under them! It was basically a ground cover of pine needles.
I hope you'll be able to rectify this with your neighbor on good terms--In my community you can go to the municipal office and they will tell you what's allowable. I think you'll find that they can give you papers that you can take to your neighbors. Here you can't even build a fence on the property line--it has to be 4 feet from the line!

Thanks for all the thoughts.

My neighbour did say that he will move the sapplings away from the lot line 10 days ago. Two week ends have come and gone and nothing has happened so far. I do not even know how far away from the lot line he plans to move them... sigh...

I think people should be thoughful in what they do.

Appreciate all your inputs.

Cloverman.

Best of luck. I'm so glad for your sake that you were proactive in this matter.

Here, we have to be 10 ft from an easement for a fence and at least 7 1/2 ft from the property line. Even if it was 2 ft off the property line, then it's my property and I have every right to mow it. And I would. Why would I give up 2 ft plus the entire length of what I paid for?

Don't think you would be expected to give up what you paid for either by the neighbor or by law, but by using sheer common sense, when you put up a fence or even trees/hedges etc, then a smart person would also work out that these require maintenance, therefore you would allow access to this without infringing on your neighbours property, in other words, why should the neighbour give up their rights to privacy or have to give free entry to some jerk who feels it's his given right to do so. it would seem the moral of the story is, be neighbourly, considerate of others and have respect for the neighbourly ambiance of everyone else, there are more disputes over thoughtless neighbours than anything else, everyone pays for the whole property not just on selfish person who is uninterested in others worries or point of view. hope the people concerned can sort it all out in a friendly manner without trying to win points, forgetting the real consequences will cause harm to others. WeeNel.

Well it appears that they are after all not that interested in moving the sapplings. They say it is 3 to 5 inches on their side. So they are not going to move it, right now, may be in a month or so....

They have an acre of land and to come and try to pick a petty fight is.. just that petty.

I am not sure what else to do, except to be petty like them. This is what leads to sour relationships and unnecessary expenses..

You could have a surveyor come out, just on the off chance that they were wrong about where the lot line is, then if it turns out the trees are really on your side of the line then you would be within your rights to remove them. You could also check if your area has any rules about setbacks (how far you have to be from the property line to put things), it could be that your area might have a rule about having to plant things a certain distance away. I don't know how likely that is, but it's worth checking.

If you don't get anywhere with either of those two things, then once the trees start to grow onto your side of the property you are within your rights to trim the branches that extend onto your side of the property line, as long as by doing so you don't kill the tree. This will make the trees look rather lopsided and ridiculous though. Personally I would build a fence an inch or two on my side of the lot line, that way the low branches will run into the fence and probably be somewhat stunted, and when the tree gets taller than the fence and the branches start to hang over, you can trim them back if you want to.

Or you could put out some deer treats near the trees and hope that they'll come along and munch them down for you!

I am going to wait to see if they are truely going to move it in a month or so. If not then I have plant some shrubs or put up a fence or do some thing like that.

cloverman, i hesitate to respond because i don't want to offend you, but i can tell that this issue is really eating at you. to be honest with you, even though i live away from my nearest neighbors, i dislike it when anyone trespasses without permission or in anyway 'disrespects' my property. for me maybe it's that male territorial thing or something, but i have to catch myself once in a while. but when you asked them to move the trees it probably offended them. most people are a little suspicious of new neighbors anyway. neighbors can be a nuisance or they can be your saving grace. many times both!
you may win the battle, but you'll most certainly lose the war if you know what i mean. you can either live in peace with or in years of battle with your neighbors. i mowed the weeds a little over the line so this year the farmer moved his bean field over, thought it was my yard! i didnt mean for him to do that. i let him use my machine shed foir some of his equip,he mows the ditches for me.he told me if i ever get my tract-trlr stuck he would come over from next town and pull me out.with the right sugar, they would probably let you plant roses over the line into their property. at the very least i would invite them for coffee and apologize. they'll probably get moved the same day. not that you're wrong.because you are in the right, but the price for being right.

Hey cloverman, you'd have to check with the local ordinances in your area, but so far as I know, if a neighbors tree overhangs your lot and its branches are in your way, you have the right to chop off those branches, without asking permission first. They are considered a part of your property if they overhang the line. Now, it would be exceptionally nasty to do so, and probably totally ruin your relationship with your neighbor, so I wouldn't really recommend it, but just so you know, you are in the right.

I planted my seedling blue spruces 15 feet in from my lot line. I hate to loose that much of my side-yard, but I wanted a wall of pine to block out my neighbors garage and didn't want to crowd out his yard when they get huge (30 years from now lol!). Unfortunately, the neighbor seems to think now that the little row of trees IS the lot line, and has been driving in my yard to get to his back yard since his trailer is parked on the side of his garage . . . even though I mow it . . . sometimes you just can't win . . . .

Wildgardengirl, have you talked to your neighbor about him driving on your property? Laws are different everwhere, but I just want to mention that in my area anyway, there is something called adverse possession. Meaning if someone uses your property without permission for 10 years or so, they can take it for their own. You are safe if you give permission. It doesn't make sense. Would be worth checking into.

I have a 10 acre garden, so you can imagine, my nearest neighbours are well hiden from view, never the less, we have found over the years that some people have been encroaching onto our ground, so what, some may say, well the trouble with all that is thus, if I decide to sell, then I have to go to the legal expence of proof that the neighbours line is way over onto mine, as said before, after some years, these folks have a legal right to own the land that I never bothered to tell them they had no right to use in the first place, OR they might move before I do, so the new neighbours get all hot and bothered when I tell them to remove there new pond, trees, garden hut etc as I am about to sell my property, it all gets very complicated if not sorted right at the start, then you have the worry about damage to person or property, who becomes responsible if someone is hurt by trees or flooding from ponds on your ground and because you dont go around your boundery all that often, you dont even realise you have a problem, as a lot of folks then realise, ignorance is no excuse for being in a court of law, so as Len has stated, it is always better to have things done properly, in writing and signed by all parties, that way, no one can assume anything other than what has been agreed, not by word of mouth, but all above board and on paper, saves sleepless nights and tears all round, any lawyer would advice the same if asked, there are more arguments about bounery lines after a while, than anything else. As for the guy who is driving across the next doors property line, I would write a friendly letter advicing him to stop this practice as you dont want to have to repair, fix or cause dammage to you property or him by continuing to use the ground in this way, tell him you are about to errect a chain fence or whatever to define your property line for any future use you may require to use it for, this improper use of your land can lead to a lot of expense on your part should you need to sell, repair or redesign your garden, the next lot of neighbours might not be so friendly towards you when you point out that they dont own this strip of land.
Good luck to cloverman, you sure need it as this neighbour is now being totally selfish by argueing about inches of tree planting this close to your lot line, why should he be entitled to grow roots from large trees onto your garden IF it can be avoided, it surely can and should be, he is about to shade you out from any growing space you may require as lawn, beds or just plane light especially as at this stage, it could so be avoided, his tree roots will put an end to your long term plans also, good luck, take proper advice and dont be afaraid to fight your corner, there is nothing worse than not being able to enjoy your own space due to ignorance/selfishness from others. WeeNel.

Well Weeneel

That was my point. I wanted to avoid future problems. If it was a flower bed inches away from the lot line who cares. But to plant white pine that can have a diameter of 8 to 10 feet when grown and to plant it at the lot line is not right.

I hav enow come to realize that the previous owners never cared about this side of the lot [ it is an acre lot]. The neighbours when they moved in cleared all the trees in their acre lot .. now it is a baren land.. and decided to plant these pine at the lot line.

We ended up measuring the line from the stakes and 4 were on his side ny 3 to 5 inches and one was on my side of the lot by 5 inches. I told them politely that these when grown will occupy my land and to avoid problems if they can please move the trees on to their side. They initially told me that they will move it each weekend and after 3 weekends did not move. On the week end before my trees guys came they argued with me and told me there will be trouble if the trees were to be damaged during the work being done.

I even offered to buy new trees for them to plant in to their yard.. but I was told in the first week that it was given by his father in law, and on the third week the story changed to his grand father who gave him the plants.

Now I realize that they were never truely planning to move the plants and are try to occupy my side of the land by several feet and save their side of the lot for their personal use in the future.

It is good to have good neighbours, not cunning ones. Regarding asking them for a cup of tea.. when we moved in, we made the effort invite them over for a glass [few] of wine. But looks like we have to end up putting up with selfish people as neighbours.

I still want to give them the benfit of doubt because I was told that they will move the trees when they are going to plant garss on their side of the land in September... I do want to believe them.

For my part I have been as calm and polite as possible. Instead of just removing a long branch hovering over my house from a tree on the lot line [mostly on their side], I offered to completely remove the garabge tree [weed tree] they agreed for this, and I did this at my expense with out asking them to share in the expense.

It is easy to play tit for tat... all it does is add up the mental agony.

I hope for the best case scenario where they will move the trees to their side in September.... :)

I would dig up the one that's on your side of the lot line, you can be nice and put it in a pot on their doorstep for them rather than just ripping it out, but you are definitely well within your rights to remove the one that's on your property if they don't remove it promptly.

well cloverman, it sounds as if you've done more than you needed to, but some people are just stupid and that is something that's not so easily fixed.

I am afraid I would not accept the trees be moved by Christmas, that is more months of top growth and root growth, I would get some legal advice, dont mean full on top guy advice, but over here, in UK, we have a Citizens Advice place where all advice is free, no matter what the subject is, they on some associations, will even help with the letter writing and the legal terminology, or a gov/area department to give you help finding the proper legal advice that wont cost you anything till you decide the next step to take, this guy sounds like a total jerk who plays on folks who dont want confrontation, however, by playing that card, he gets away with treating others like he owns the world, but be sure, a fence can be erected without damage to any trees at the size they are, a good fence erector will be happy to do so without making you liable for damage or threats from a guy using bully boy tactics, you are fully entitled to screen off your lot, if he complains, then he will have to prove you intended to damage his saplings his father/grandfather or the president gave him as a gift, then he will be informed that he should not have planted the trees where it deterred you from being able to work/maintain or enjoy your lot as and how you saw fit, just as he is doing, you have to think long term, not just till Christmas, and anyway, he never said WHAT Christmas he was referring to, go find out all your rights, once he has to move these weed trees, put a fence up so you never have to look his direction again, easy as pie, block him out, he has had his chance to be a good neighbour, any normal person would be trying to prevent this situation arising between neighbours
do you have an association for your neighbourhood, if so, get in touch with them, I'd go to the devil if it were to prevent problems much later, with these weed trees, the problems wont be too distant from your door anyway. good luck, I really feel for you, but sometimes you have to stand your ground, now, rather than wait till later, anyway, you have nothing in writing to say he ever intends to act about the trees. Best regards, WeeNel.

First, let me say that I feel so sorry for you. It seems like a very simple situation to correct if everyone would just work honorably. Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like this is the case. Based upon your neighbor's response, you might want to seriously consider erecting a fence, and regularly trim any trees on your property. I don't think that you have asked them for anything harsh or difficult, given the size that these saplings will be when they are full grown.

The only downfall that I see with the fence is that your neighbor may feel that this gives him license to leave things exactly where they are - except for the one that is already on your property. The other option, and I would hate to have to do this, but you may be forced to in the future, is to consider having a letter sent to him by an lawyer outlining the problem, and asking for resolution for a set date - this in my option should be a last resort, but they may force your hand.

I don't think a lawyer will help, unless there's a local ordinance or something outlining how far from the property line you have to be before planting things, legally there's nothing that can be done about the trees that are on the neighbor's property. It may have been very rude and un-neighborly for them to plant there, but it's not illegal. Cloverman is perfectly within his rights to remove the one that's on his property, and to trim the others as they encroach on his property, but unless there's a local ordinance saying the trees have to be planted farther away from the property line, there's nothing legally that can be done to force the neighbor to move the others.

WeeNell, as always I love the way you phrase things!
As for MY neighborly issues, my dad is a surveyor and I'm going to have him bring over his equipment in the near future to make sure we are very precise about where the lot line is, and then erect metal fence post stakes every 15 feet or so down the line right between our houses. I have ONE out in the front yard area and he stays on his side of it with no problem, so if I stack up several in a row in the area we are having problems, he should get the clue. He is quite a nice fellow, not really a bad neighbor, just a clueless one. :)
I don't really want to put a fence up behind the pine trees, they will make their own, more natural, version of a fence within a few years. I think I shall put bluebird houses on all my fenceposts too, that way they look like they are there for a reason, other than defining the lot line, that is. :)

Cloverman, if you were to erect a solid privacy fence along the area where the neighbor has his little trees, the trees would not grow branches out on the side that faces the fence (especially as close as they would be to it!). Eventually, they would get to be quite ugly looking specimens, rather lopsided with all their branches on one side. And when (if) they reached the point that the branches could get above the fence, you could neatly lop them off where they hung over. Although, I would imagine that being force to grow so awkwardly in the first place they would be weaker and more prone to disease, and may die off before getting too large.

Of course, You could also water them with a touch of bleach. It would have to be very innocently done, you see, one would never deliberately do such a mean spirited thing. I would think over fertilizing them would to the trick too. And you could claim you were just being kind and spreading your extra fertilizer on the neighbors priceless heriloom trees from his great grandfathers uncles best freind, or whomever they are supposedly from.

Here's a picture of that scenario:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3803511

You have to be careful doing anything that might kill trees on a neighbor's property--first of all it's not a good way to do things, but second of all you can be held legally responsible. And for purposely killing trees that have some sort of sentimental value to the neighbor, I don't know that the judge would be overly lenient! That's why the rules about cutting branches that overhang your yard are written so that you're allowed to do that, but only if it doesn't kill the tree in the process (at least if you're trimming branches and the tree dies, you didn't do it on purpose!)

I am not going to do anything silly.
I do hope that they will move the tree. If not, I will have to figure out a way to deal with it. Nope, I am not going to be petty like them.

ecrane - I would never suggest someone actually go out and do damage to a neighbors landscape, I meant the comment in jest.

Cloverman, you CAN move the one you found to actually be on your side of the line. I'd do as ecrane suggested, pot it up and leave it on their porch with a nice note explaining why.

I wish you luck, and hope your neighbors stop acting so petty and childish and soon make amends for their short-sightedness.