Help with japanese garden

Okay. I need to break down and ask. I've been telling myself I can do it all by myself and don't need help. I read the books and watch the shows but... What trees can I get for my north facing yard whose only shade comes from a cherry tree (30 ft.) next to my east fence and an apple tree (25 ft.) next to my west fence? I am in zone 5. (Salt Lake City, Utah) I have a list of trees I would like to have.
Japanese black pine, sourwood, cypress, star magnolia, arborvitae, white pine and yew. I HAVE a dwarf weeping cherry, hosta, ferns, helleborus, astilbe, irish moss, giant reed, wisteria, iris, rose of sharon, lilac, money plant, weeping peach, viburnun and buckthorn. All well-behaved and doing well. All the shade plants are in the shade along the back of the house.

This message was edited Jul 31, 2007 6:18 PM

Would the trees on my list be okay here? Here is the other side. These pics are from last year. I can post this years if needed.

This message was edited Jul 31, 2007 6:52 PM

Well, I don't know much about specific trees to use, but I have made Japanese-y gardens before. Usually, it's good to have some bamboo. Not all bamboo are runners; some are quite well behaved, "clumping" style. Also, it's good to have some hills & valleys with a variety of groundcovers and a path, rather than a rectangle of lawn. There's always a water feature...and some rocks help...and moss, maples...and that J. Black Pine u mentioned. If u want shade, better find something that grows faster. My J. B.P. has only grown 2 ft in 3 yrs. Also, stuff doesn't grow well under pines. I think deciduous trees work better, cause plants can get some winter sun.

I recently discovered a fabulous groundcover! From a distance it looks like moss which really adds to the Japanese effect. But unlike moss, it prefers full sun and doesn't need much water. It's called 'Elfin Thyme'. I'm in zone 7, in CA and the test patch I planted last summer survived both the blazing heat waves and the snow! I'm absolutely thrilled with it! My moss always died out during the summer cause I was never willing to pamper it. u'll have to check about z5, tho. don't know.

good luck!
Koko

I will look up the 'Elfin Thyme'. Is it a thyme or something else? Kwanjin

kwanjin, I have been working on a Japanese garden myself. I have alot of the same plants you have chosen: liliacs, weeping cherry, hostas, ferns, one of my favorite is the japanese forest grass 'hakonechloa macra aureola', contrasts nicely with the hostas.
Last summer I worked on a gravel pathway which will wind over to a water feature, really helped capture the japanese design.
Haven't been able to finish the water feature this year, hopefully next year.

I think the Japanese Black Pine would look great in your yard. I have never seen the sourwood and love it-might have to get one. I particularly do not care for the cypress or arborvitae, I know alot of people like them, maybe thats why I dont widely used.
Star magnolia and yew look like great plant choices also.

This year I was looking at my pathway and couldn't figure out what was missing, I decided after looking at several japanese garden pics, I needed to encorporate more evergreen shrubs. I put in 2 pendula pines with amazing curved trunks that will weep, and a few different varieties of evergreen shrubs. I purchase alot of my plants at "The Rock Garden". Inexpensive and great choices for a japanese garden.

Some japanese maple trees would be great also. I like how the pines look with them. I have a variety I don't even know what kind, it turns a bright orange in the fall. Dogwood Trees maybe. I have one a 'cherokee chief' would like a white one. Although they do look like peach trees, ha ha.

Post another pic, let me know how it is coming along!

We have had great success with our flowering plum tree on our north side. It gives great color in spring, summer and fall. I am also planning to add a little touch of Japanese style to our gardens, with a deerchaser fountain and a granite lantern.
One tree that I have been considering seriously is the umbrella pine. I don't know if it will be happy on the north side, but it is quite interesting.

Hi, Flowerprincess. I too have some of the forest grass. It stays so compact and unobtrusive, I forgot I had it. It's very pretty behind some astilbes. Could you post some pics of your yard? Perhaps that would help me. I'm planning a path with flagstone from tha patio around the hedgerow and changing the cement walkway to flagstone as well. Also, a dry stream bed from the west corner of the house to the other side of the yard. Oh, and some volcanic rock and ground covers. That thyme sounded pretty that fofo mentioned. Any tips?

fofo, I have some giant reed that looks like bamboo and had some true bamboo in a pot but it didn't do very well. Wrong kind, wrong site. Anyway, posting a pic of one of my buddhas.

Dearcahser, does your flowering plum require afternoon shade?

And finally to all. My small bloodgood maple that I am having a problem with that I mentioned on another thread. If I move the maple to the west end of the yard against the fence where it will get afternoon shade, will that be sufficient, do you think?


Anyway, thanks, all for the answers. Kwanjin



This message was edited Aug 6, 2007 12:08 AM

Kwanjin,
My flowering plum gets late afternoon sun. I see a lot of them around here being used as ornamentals in commercial landscaping, which is usually quite sunny. So I guess it's pretty adaptable to just about any amount of sun or shade. I would try it.
We are getting a delivery of some new ornamentals today, but I forgot the names. lol. I will ask the landscape architect that is bringing them whether they would work on a north side.

Okay Dearchaser, I looked at pics of flowering plum and I am considering it as a replacement for my maple. Let me know what you find out.


Thanks, Kwanjin

This message was edited Aug 6, 2007 7:48 AM

I personally do not like the flowering plum, we have two planted outside at work, although they are pretty in the spring, they smell awful... For the longest time I couldn't figure out what smelled so bad, then I realized it was the flowering pear tree, they have thorns too.
But I'm a little picky, I know they are widely used around here.

kwanjin, I will take some pics of my pathway, it's definately in its beginning stages, so you'll have to use your imagination. It's been fun I like it, it's unique, can't wait till I get the water feature in!

Flowerprincess, I can't wait to see the pathway. It's so nice to discover someone so close who is interested in the same thing I am. Didn't know about the thorns on the plum. The book didn't say. I have two cats that might effect if I get one. And is it the plum or pear that smells bad?

Kwanjin

You know what, I read it wrong, its the flowering 'pear' tree that is icky. It's the flowers that smell.

I was excited to see someone around here planting a japanese garden also! Not very common around here. Everyone always comments about my pathway and are surprised to not see flowers everywhere since I take care of two greenhouses at my job and plant so many flowers! ha ha
I think I have a before pic, I will post today, then I'll take a new pic this weekend. Hey I would some suggestions also because I have been a little stuck with what it needs. Don't want to over crowd it either.

Yes, Flowerprincess, it is the pear flowers that smell. I have four going up my driveway, and they are oh so smelly in the spring! My plum is definitely not an offender lol. I'm looking forward to your pictures!

Kwanjin, I'm afraid I forgot to ask about other options for you when I got my delivery. Got caught up in the moment lol. I am planning a trip to the nursery soon, so I will try to remember. I know that my Hollywood pine likes it at my Northeast corner, but not sure how that would work with your design. It's my husband's favorite plant but it's a little too unruly for me. My favorite is my weeping hemlock. Watching it grow is like watching paint dry though!

Donna

Hello again Flowerprincess. Okay. Plum good, pear bad. Got it. I think we have pear where I work too and there is something pretty bad in the spring. I thought it was a local restaurant! LOL I need more evergreens too. I also MUST get some island beds going because everything I have so far is too spread out and isolated. But, trees first then everything else. I have a list a mile long!!! The front went in the first two years and I'm "done" with that. I also have a 6' x 6' greenhouse we are putting up this fall. I have always wanted a white camelia and cannot grow them here.

Hi Deerchaser. Don't worry about it. I'm slowly adopting an Eastern garden philosophy. Go slow, don't rush, everything in it's time. We may be here for a few more years and I want to get it right. I guess that works here in the West too. Hmm...Anyway, I don't know about hollywood pine. I will check it out. Thanks.


Kwanjin Oh, and I thought you might like to see my roses in the front.


This message was edited Aug 10, 2007 1:45 AM

And one of my "before" pics...

Here is my before pic, I will send you some recent ones tomorrow. Wow I didn't realize how much different pathway looks now until I looked at before pic. I think its important to take before and after pics... U forget

I too, love the weeping hemlock, I wanted to purchase one, but they all looked half dead at the nursery.

Kwanjin, I was thinking about maybe trying to grow a Deodora Cedar, although they are zoned for 6 and we are in 5. I figure it may be worth a try.
I recently purchased a weeping katsura tree. They are lovely and have a great legend behind them. Rare trees, and I've never seen them around here. I found one at Alpine Gardening Center on clearance. So I am trying to keep it alive. I hope it makes it will be a nice addition to my Japanese garden.
I too need to plant some trees this fall, alot of the plants I have selected need shade and I have very little. I just bought some azaleas and rhododendrons (I love to buy perennials this time of year such great bargains! rhododendron was $22.00 I bought if for $1!!!



This message was edited Aug 12, 2007 12:57 PM

Here is a pic of the south side along the fence. I planted the pendula "weeping pines" I also planted a hibiscus there, which I guess shouldn't go in a Japanese garden, but it so pretty. I may move to the front yard in the spring.
Hostas and some little fern starts are planted in front of it.

Thanks, Flowerprincess. That's very pretty. And I always figure if you like it, then any plant will look good in a japanese setting. It's the placement that counts. You've done a wonderful job of that path. Mine is going to be more plain and rustic with the flagstone. And I'm sorry. I can't see the second pic very well. Can you get better one?


Thanks, Kwanjin

Flowerprincess, good luck with your weeping katsura tree. It's a beautiful plant!

So I took about 3 pics of what the pathway looks like now, and my phone is fighting with me.
I'll try again tomorrow so I can post new pics.

Flowerprincess, I looked at pics of the katsura trees. They ARE lovely. Looking forward to your new pictures. I'm getting down to the Western Garden this weekend. Hope to score some trees. If I do, should I wait until fall to plant them? I know this is a hard time for all the plants. (and us)


Kwanjin


PS Good luck with your phone.

Ok, I give up on my phone, think I need a new one, this certainly does not do justice to what it really looks like. Ha ha but I guess you get the general idea. I need to get trees on either side of pathway so I can plant my azaleas and rhododendrons, not sure what kind, let me know if you get any ideas.
Ya I think probably only a month and we'll have cooler temps. Fall is supposed to be a good time to plant trees, and most of the nurserys have them clearances or on sale too! I always buy a product called 'root stimulator' find it at the nursery's, mix it with water, I was told from my fav garden guru to soak the tree or shrubs in the stimulizer for about 24 hours, then plant it and pour the rest in with the tree. I swear buy it, keeps the trees from going into shock.
I soaked my katsura tree real good for about an hour the other day, I have new leaves all over it! yeah!
Let me know if you find any good trees!
Hey if you are ever up this way, that business I told you about, "The Rock Garden" he is selling his house, and should be getting rid of alot of his established tree's and shrubs as well as the ones he sells, I will probably go see him tomorrow, I'll let you know if has alot of good deals; he has an amazing yard, very woodsy/japanese feel - sad to see him go.

This message was edited Aug 14, 2007 4:53 PM

Here is another pic of pendula pine with hosta and hibiscus. I just planted the pines this year, they are a little sparse, but bonsai like, and should fill in nicely next year. Hopefully a little better- still hard to see.

This message was edited Aug 14, 2007 4:46 PM

Kwanjin,
O I almost forgot, I love your little budda! I need to get a buddha or a japanese pagoda
Do you have bamboo planted behind it?

Hi Flowerprincess. We got the little buddha in San Francisco 3 years ago. And it is giant reed that is behind him. We are slowly trying to dig that out because it is taking over and pushing up the wall! There is a hedgerow of tallhedge buckthorn behind it. We planted the reed originally because...A) we thought it was bamboo. (Got it from a friend) And B)Our back wall neighbor likes to stand and look into our yard and it's a fast growing screen in summer until the row grows in. It's (the buckthorn)about 7 feet tall now. Next year it will be tall enough to block him. If you want some you can have it. You'll need to put a barrier up for it though. And cut it down every fall.

Anyway..I'll try the other things you recommended and see what I can come up with. Let me know about this fellow selling his house and I'll try to come that way. Might not make it though. I going to be laid up after this weekend for a few weeks. I'm having foot surgery and I'll be on crutches for awhile. Again. (sigh)

Your path is beautiful. I'm a little jealous.

Looking forward to more pics!

Kwanjin

Good morning Flowerprincess. Your path is lovely. I'm a lot jealous. :)

Wow the buckthorn is very tall. I have alot of privacy, nobody behind me but I have the same problem with neighbors to the south end! My next priority is to finish privacy slats, and to plant something to block them out too! I know sounds non-social but sometimes I just don't like someone asking what I'm doing all the time and watching me mow the lawn. lol

Sorry to hear about your surgery, wish you the best...

daiseycat: Thank you!
Had to do it twice, learned the hard way you have to do it right the first time. I didn't put weed out underneath the gravel, so I had to redo it this year. The whole area was just dirt when I moved in. I was originally just going to finish putting sod in, and then I thought I already have PLENTY of grass to mow, so I decided to try the pathway.
I'm happy with it, but a little stuck at the moment at what it needs? Think a few trees, maybe maples and I'm going to plant azaleas and rhododendrons, but need shade first :)

Yes, I wanted something that would grow fast, and be bird friendly. I left the ground bare there to see how bad it would reseed itself but so far it has behaved itself. Just a few here and there. Next year ground cover and other things are going in. Just not sure what yet. Suggestions?

Kwanjin

Hey all,

I've been looking at buying a house, and one of the first things I want to do make a Japanese Garden. I love the feel.

I did find a couple good reads on them if you are interested:

http://www.free-articles-database.com/home-gardening-landscaping/japanese-gardens-basic-design-a429.html

http://www.free-articles-database.com/home-gardening-landscaping/japanese-gardens-practical-stones-a421.html

http://www.free-articles-database.com/home-gardening-landscaping/guide-japanese-gardens-a413.html

http://www.free-articles-database.com/camping-hiking-vacation/japanese-garden-monaco-a3031.html

I've done a lot of herb growing, and this looks like a similar approach. Pretty good reading from a beginner's standpoint.

Cheers

Thanks for the input, Fallenrock. Looks like I'll be spending the day in front of the computer again!!! LOL I'll follow these and see where they lead me.

Kwanjin

As far as ground covers, there are so many. One of my friends planted Lemon Thyme in between the pavers and it smells amazing. You can sit by the water feature and smell it in the air. Think I am going to have to get some.

I found some ornamental oregano (not sure actually a ground cover, but I am using it as one), that is really different, makes me hungry though smells like spaghetti!
My mom loves the iceplant.
I planted creeping jenny, like the color, ended up digging it up and passing on to someone else it's a little invasive.

Sorry I didn't get back sooner. Been busy. Thanks, I'll look at both of those ground covers and see what will work. I have a neighbor who has woolly thyme as their front lawn. Their front faces north but they have a big pine in the yard too. Hmm...



Kwanjin

Hi Flower. What is that last picture you sent? It's lovely.

Kwanjin

It's ornamental oregano... it smells just like spaghetti! lol
Just found it this year, I have some hanging in my pots and I planted it in the ground as a ground cover. I like it.

hi flower. Okay, I looked at the Plantfile for your oregano. NOW I have to have some! I have couple of perfect places for it. Thanks for the tip.


Kwanjin

HiHo all; I am new to the world of nurturing all things living; perhaps my sucess rate with flora will in some ways exceed my deplorable record with fauna. I have been reading all the postings in this beginner question forum and am absolutely overwhelmed with the close nit aspect of this group; with no limits and no restrictions to sex, age, climate or growing zone, everyone participates in an enthusiastic mannor and I find that I am caught up in it. I started two months ago and have somewhat jumped off the deep end, usually a precurser to guaranteed failure in any venue, but I am doing as much homework as is available. I respect the recomendations, descriptions and instructions that come with individual plants but the real world application that I find in this forum gives me a great sence of hope and gratification that so far I am doing ok. I am mainly focusing on creating a nice patio garden and deconstructed the Arizona room attatched to the South side of my home in order to do so, I did leave the west end of the room intact so that I have a full shade area with window for seasonal sun variations.
I am; as I suspect a lot of you are; not as old as I used to be:), I do not have any distractions to speak of so I devote more time to my garden than one would resonably expect from someone with even a limitied amount of sence. I have a small plaque on the garden door entry to the house that reads "Take a deep breath, you are home now". I live in a small park here in Mesa Arizona, there are only 24 homes here, nice, very quiet, most exceptionally gifted and wonderful neighbors for whom I am building this garden. I already have some seating located, lots of little angels and fairy's peeking through the foliage and an open invitation to all to set a while, drink in the surroundings and enjoy for as long as you wish for it is said that He gave us our talent to use and when we use it, we are giving it back to Him. I am not really very religeous but it never hurts to hedge the bet.
I fear I have exceeded any limits of words that could be considered good manors; I would like to know if I may partake of your forum and from time to time ask questions about the plethora of items that I have purchased while on wild, whirlwind, eyes closed, wallet open excursions to my local nursury's. Thank you for your spectacular patience getting through this pondorous missive. LeslieJay.

Leslie, you are MORE than welcome to join us. We all do the open-wallet-whirlwind shopping at garden center thing! LOL I see that you are not a subscriber yet. If I may be bold in suggesting that you do so, if only on a two month trial basis. That's what I did. When my two months was up, I found I could not bear to leave this fabulous and wonderful group of people, so I opted for a year. The opportunities that open up here are not to be believed or missed! Hopefully, if you do, you can refer to your plaque..."Take a deep breath, you are home now."

Welcome to Dave's!!!

Kwanjin

LeslieJay,
Daves garden has been great! I have learned so much, and it is always refreshing to share our love for gardening with others :)

I didn't sign up for a subscription for several months, then I found I needed to access other forums so I got a 2 year subscription. Definately worth it.
Welcome