New blooms today

I have a few new blooms today, rainbow spider

Mickey
Cave Creek,Arizona

a lovely unknown pink a friend brought home from her sister in California

Charlotte Ebert, rather floppy I think...

Wow, very striking!!

Very nice!!

Brad

Mickey, are those indoor blooms? They look a little light, and CE doesn't look quite right. It should look like this below. But, hey, any flowers are great flowers so they are beautiful!

Amazing colors, as always...love the orange color in the first pic...
And your pink with that orangish eye, Clare...sooooo pretty!!

Thanks, Chantell.

Clair,
They're growing in a screened Arizona room. My CE is a rooting cutting. I'm not sure how far a long the roots are. Someone said they get floppy if they don't get enought water.You're right mine doesn't look like that exactly.It does have large flowers. I see later this year Maybe it doesn't like our 100 degrees. The plant was taged CE and came from a reliable source.
Mickey

Gorgeous colors Mickey. Clare, yours is a beauty too, as always.

Jackie

Mickey, I read that erroneous information on Pals, and it is another ridiculous suggestion. Flowers (and leaves) will become limp if the plant is not given enough water, yes, but the form of the flower doesn't get changed by altering the level of watering. There is so much mis-information and bad advice being given out on Pals. I cringe every time I read the threads over there.

I'm sure your flowers will have more intense color when your plant is out in full sun. The flowers are naturally floppy. I water nearly everyday, probably more often than I need to, and my CE flowers are still floppy.

Thanks, Jackie!

Clare,
I'm afraid to put them in full sun.Between the Javelina and the rattle snakes I know the plants and I are safe in the AZ room. Last year the Javelina bit a plumeria or two and killed the plants. They also knocked over tons of plants. What a mess!
Most AZ growers use shade cloth for their plumies or they fry. We have some of the strongest sun in the US here. I'm glad the hear that you think CE has a floppy flower. We'll see as the summer progresses. Now it's a mauve color.
Mickey

Mickey, yes, you are right. Filtered sun, morning sun, part sun is all good. Be careful about the information that you are getting from Pals. You are currently getting more bad information from Ken. Lava rocks and pumice increase drainage and do not retain enough water to keep your mix from drying out; bark added to the mix retains water. I don't know what to do with all the bad information being passed out over there. It would be a full-time job for me to try to correct it all, and the pay is not that great! LOL! I had hoped that all the bad advice would stay there and not work its way here, but I can see that it is already.

Edited to add: I forgot to add that adding more peat moss and vermiculite will also add water retention to your potting mix.

This message was edited May 29, 2007 12:49 PM

*gulp* Clare - I've never went to the pals site...somewhere, somehow, I too picked up the info that pumice was good to add to the soil. Not so? Course...it's in the mix of all the original pots from last year already...ugh!

And guess who mixed perlite into the C&S mix her DSP is planted in, based on that PALS info? Chantell, you and I will have to add a little something to retain a bit of water to our plumies. I have water-sorb crystals; I can add a half-tsp to the potting mix. (we have to stop meeting like this; between the Shooting Star gardenia and the plumies, we run into the same plant trouble, and we're a few hundred miles apart! LOL)
Edited to add: Mickey, that Rainbow Spider is a knock-out. Does it smell as fabulous as it looks?

This message was edited May 29, 2007 4:37 PM

Beverly,
Was thinkin' the same thing before reading your post!! LOL Other then my C & S' - beauty and scent is what I'm always ISO. Long as I've got a corner of my living room to over winter plants - life is good!! You should try Tuberoses and the Nicotina (sp?) if you haven't already!!
Clare - what are your thoughts on the water-sorb crystals? I have some of those as well. Although...all of my Plumies from last year need to be repotted with a full pot of soil so I guess I can adjust the soil mix when I do that. Are you saying not to add anything for drainage then, Clare? I just want to do the "right thing" when I repot mine.

You guys, you misunderstood my post. My apologies for not making it more clear.

Yes, pumice is great added to the potting mix to make drainage better. It is even better than perlite because it does not float to the top like perlite does. The topic that I was referring to is when a Pals member named Ken suggested that Lava Rock and Pumice will help a mix to retain water. This could not be further from the truth. Lava Rock and Pumice will help a mix to drain water, not retain water. Mickey was interested in her mix holding a little more water.

Beverly and Chantell, your pumice and perlite in your mix is good stuff. There is no need to add anything more to retain water. Most mixes hold too much water anyway, which is why we recommend adding pumice or perlite to help the commercial mixes drain better. The water-aborbing crystals are fine if you have a super well-draining mix, but it is not necessary unless you find your mix drying out way too fast. I would not use them unless your mix dries out very quickly.

Again, my comment was for the problem of adding moisture to the soil for those in the desert who want a more water-retentive mix. This really doesn't apply to most growers.

This message was edited May 29, 2007 2:12 PM

nice flowers mickey! there are so many factors that go into the color of the flowers. you did mention that it is a rooting cutting, right? that's something that should be considered. also, take into account the amount of direct sunlight and nutrients. you even have to take into account the slightest color cast in a digital image or someone's monitor color and viewing conditions. i can understand your concern but make sure you enjoy your CE.

i used the nature's way mix with pumice. absolutely love pumice. it does help with drainage. can actually help dry out your mix faster because you get better air transport. i still use it in arizona. i'll water everyday if i need be. the nice thing is that during the winter i have a mix that i will not stay soggy. pumice is good to add to the soil as clare said. i don't know about ken saying that it helps retain moisture. i never saw that. just use less pumice and more soil so that the mix doesn't dry out as fast.

Dete is right. The fact that it is rooting could very well cause the color to be lighter.

Dete, he said it here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlumeriaPals/message/112679 You posted about two hours later on that same thread. This is the type of misinformation that I am talking about. Incidentally, the plumeria was growing at the base of the volcano, not in the volcano. If the so-called experts want to spread misinformation around in that group, I could care less. I care when it starts to dribble over here.

possibly just a goof-up.

don't let it keep you up late at night. LOL i am glad that we can go between groups with the plumeria community. as with anything, you just deal with the bad in the appropriate manner and propagate the good. at this point in my life i just wanna share what i know works, learn something new and enjoy the wonderful world of plumeria.

Whew...my bad...sorry I misunderstood, Clare...thanks for clearing that up for me. My pumice goes in 75% of the type of plants I have (a lot of C & S). I feel so much better now.

Hi Dete, you are right that I shouldn't care so much. It just takes up my time when someone reads some misinformation like that and then repeats it to other people who don't know that it is bad information, and I have to correct it because I care about these people here and want them to succeed with growing plumerias. You know enough to know how to separate the good from the bad, but many don't. I am finding a lot of misinformation, ignorance, and arrogance on the PlumeriaPals, and I won't ever be a part of that community again. It is fine for those who want to socialize and share pics and ideas, but when the so-called experts start spreading bad information, it is bad for everyone. If I didn't care about the good people here, I wouldn't be bothered, but it doesn't keep me up at night. One day soon, I won't have time for these forums any longer, and it will be up to the growers that have learned something to pass on their knowledge.

That's okay, Chantell. That was my fault for not making it more clear.

OK, I put the water-sorb away.
Chantell - no, haven't tried those yet. Have a bunch of lavender and dianthus varieties going outside, my front yard smells like cloves now that the Bath pinks are in bloom - wonderful!

clare i completely understand where you are coming from. it's an admirable position to take.

where did you hear that pumice doesn't float. i've heard so many people say this and i always bit my toungue and never said anything. LOL it seems to me that it's one of those things that someone said and everyone picked up on and spread.

the truth is that pumice is the only rock that floats. it floats because it is porous. it only sinks when it becomes waterlogged. i guess that's what people have been seeing. they see waterlogged pumice sitting below the surface of the water and assume that it doesn't float. most people would be right to say that a car doesn't float. well, it will maintain some level of buoyancy until it fills with water. i guess it goes to show us all that sometimes our observations are just part of the truth.

Well, you are right again. When I do a transplant and really water the newly transplanted plumeria in well, a lot of the Perlite floats to the top of the water as it is being absorbed and then settles on the top of the mix. I don't think I've used Pumice much except when planting my adeniums. Thanks for that observation.

clare, you missed the point. LOL we are both partially right or wrong. haha!

my real point is that there is truth in ken's statement that can be applied in potting culture. "The addition of lava rock, crushed lava rock or pumice in your soil mixture will help retain the necessary moisture when the temps get real high." we know this because pumice becomes waterlogged. if it's waterlogged, then it obviously retains water which it can then be absorbed by the roots and soil.

one might be able to argue to what degree it is helpful compared to organic material. however, the truth still remains that it is helpful and that's what counts. pumice is a plus because it not only helps with drainage but aids in water retention.

Sorry, I don't think I am wrong. I mean I might have been mistaken about pumice floating to the top of soil, but pumice and perlite added to potting soil helps water to drain more quickly. They do not hold water and do not make the mix retain water. Peat, bark, and vermiculite hold water and will make the mix retain water. The porosity of pumice is different than the absorbancy. Pumice has a porosity of 90%: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumice

I always love these discussions on different potting mediums! In fact I was just discussing using extra perlite in my soiless mix for plumerias. It is true that in the summer, the drainage is so much better that you have to water more, but, in the winter, I think it helps to have that extra drainage-

Speaking of pumice though, I think it is a bit misleading to say that it helps with water retention. I am not sure about it absorbing water, so much as it has lots of little pockets that capture the water ( at least on the sides and top of each piece) and will hold that water. The length of time, and how helpful that is in terms of how much you have to water, is, I think not that helpful. In other words, most pumice used in mediums is on the smaller side, thus the pockets are smaller. As well, in summer heat, in a container with a plant that is at all well rooted-that water is gone fairly soon.

As a grower myself, I would not say to someone-"use pumice as it will cut down your watering". I would say to use it to provide better drainage -which is what it is almost universally used for. It is not known for good water holding capacity, and it could be thought of as misleading to say that it is. There are far better ingredients to use in your potting medium to hold water better, that also provide some drainage than pumice. CHC comes to mind as one ingredient -coconut husk chips. They come in bricks of either 1/4" or 1/2" pieces and they truly do absorb water and have a great holding capacity for the medium-they don't break down for a long time (years) and so the structure of the soil stays strong-unlike a soiless mix that will start to compact after some time.
In my opinion, perlite does the same job as pumice for plumerias-which is to provide better drainage.

My heart is still going pitty-pat over those first two photos. What beautiful flowers!

Thanks for weighing in on this one, Terry;-) You said it so much better than I did.

clare - retention by definition means to hold. it does not care by what means an object aquires what it holds. the word retention is blind to that. it speaks of the act not the process. you thank terry for saying it much better than you. terry states that, "[pumice] has lots of little pockets that capture the water ( at least on the sides and top of each piece) and will hold that water." that is opposed to your statement that, "They do not hold water." do you not see this? i am actually shocked that you even make this statement! just search the internet and this fact will become evident to you. (this is not something dreamed up on pals by ken.) it is a physical fact.

terry - i see what you are saying because i said, "one might be able to argue to what degree it is helpful compared to organic material." i would be more likely to tell someone to use pumice because it's good for drainage. i would push it for that reason in potting culture. however, can we deny that it retains water?

when it's all said and done - I AM NO EXPERT. however, i do know that the underwear that i put on today is white. LOL

I prefer white underwear myself TC!
In one sense here we are arguing semantics of meanings, and in another we are talking about how accurate or helpful a statement is. The water holding capacity of pumice is so small that it is almost meaningless to use it in the same sentence as "water retention", or to promote pumice as an ingredient that will promote water retention. I think that what has Clare going is that someone who is supposedly knowledgeable about growing plumerias would make that statement w/out clarifying that it really is not true-ie. it will not really help with cutting down watering-essentially it helps with drainage-, but it isn't going to cut down watering. There are many ingredients that will -like bark, vermiculite etc-not pumice. So it is a very misleading statement ( and curious statement coming from an expert (? I don't even know who this person is) to say that. It could be taken as very confusing ( and thus not helpful) to a layperson.

Also-if it absorbed water-the weight of that water would cause it to sink, I believe.

I prefer white underwear if necessary but they did invent pantyhose for a reason!

Somebody's smokin something! What the heck is PALS?

I think all pumice is volcanic. Unfortunately around here they sell Scoria as red pumice. It's also sold as lava rock. It's that deep red landscape material sold by landscapers for spreading around plantings at cheap restaurants and malls. It confuses the heck out of people and I believe it, just like pumice and lava rock regardless of whether it is crushed or not, certainly doesn't retain "necessary moisture" when temps get high.

I use gray pumice all the time given I have no great love for perlite for these reasons-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=1907743

When you read what I typed above, please do not confuse "provides space in the soil needed for air, water percolation, nutrient holding capacity and body" with pumice's ability, or rather lack of ability, to provide necessary moisture to reduce watering requirements when temps are high. Pumice is permeable and although the movement of water through the pores may be slow in soil, it's still a permeable rock and its ability to retain moisture is probably only a few steps up from granite chips or rockwool- we're not exactly talking about a water gel polymer here. If you want good aeration and drainage in a medium, use pumice. If you want to retain moisture in a medium... try something like vermiculite or peat moss.

One word of caution when using pumice in mixes for Nepenthes, there have been documented situations in which roots have worked their way into the pumice and strangled. If it happens on occassion to Nepenthes, it can possibly happen to other plants.

Some additional reading on the addition of pumice to potting mix. If I am reading this right, it would seem that the size of the pumice would influence its function.

http://crops.confex.com/crops/wc2006/techprogram/P12259.HTM

http://www.agr.hr/jcea/issues/jcea6-3/pdf/jcea63-21.pdf

Dete, I know what retention means, and I am saying that there is no water retention. I happen to have a lot of pumice here, including a great big bar of it that I use to scrub my feet in the bath tub every time I bathe. I can drop it in the water, and it will float. I can submerge it for a period of time, and it will pop to the surface and retain absolutely no water. Ken is touted as being an expert over at Plumeria Pals, a Plumeria God, but he frequently gives out bad advice, and this was just one more example of that. He told Mickey to add lava rock or pumice to help retain water in her 100-degree Arizona desert heat. That's nonsense. If you don't agree, that is fine. I see that you have asked Ken for clarification so we'll see what kind of back-petalling he does. Edited to add: what I meant by thanking Terry for saying it better than me was really thanking her for saying it more diplomatically than me. Her point was that it is misleading to say that pumice retains water. That was diplomatic. I said Ken is wrong -- i.e., not diplomatic.

Terry, thanks for being in this discussion. You have it exactly right.

Equilibrium, thanks for joining in this discussion also. Yah, he must be smokin' something! LOL! Pals is a Yahoo Group called PlumeriaPals that has a few of the good ol' boys that are old school, if you know what I mean, and very set in their ways and ideas. They love to say that they have 37 years of growing experience, and yet they lack basic horticultural knowledge. They all support each other and come down on any new and evolved thinking. When I joined, I thought it would be a knowledgeable think tank, but I was wrong. Now I'm just trying to stop the flow of misinformation that comes this way. Thanks again for your imput and for that post on Perlite. The real evolved thinkers and the true knowledgeable ones are on Dave's.

Edited to add last sentence to Dete.

This message was edited May 29, 2007 9:03 PM

Eeesh, I look at those two links above and I see one common demominator... clay. Clay would probably plug up the poors of pumice quite nicely but the silt present in the soil tested at the first link wouldn't hurt either. I don't use clay in any of my potting mediums. It's nice and chalk full of nutrients and all but I still don't use it in any of my mixes.

hi terry,

"Pumice is the only rock that floats on water, although it will eventually become waterlogged and sink." i take this to mean that it can absorb or trap water. possible support for my point, maybe or maybe not.

i have rooted in 100% pumice before. days after all the water has drained the pumice is still moist. perhaps, that means absolutely nothing in arizona's dry heat.

i can't speculate on the effectiveness of the water retention of pumice. i've never done any experiments, so i will not say that it doesn't have any merit. check out this article www.agr.hr/jcea/issues/jcea6-3/pdf/jcea63-21.pdf if you have any time. it's titled EFFECT OF PUMICE AMENDMENT ON PHYSICAL SOIL PROPERTIES AND STRAWBERRY PLANT GROWTH.

dete

"the true beauty of this all is that TRUTH stands even if no one believes in it."

Please take a close look at Table 1 of the above referenced document which includes the words "physical soil properties". Please note the clay and silt in the composition. Does anyone here add clay or silt to their potting mixes?

You know what they say about theories... everybody's got one.

All this because I bought a few lousy plumerias and wandered over here to poke around. Clara_CA, I don't know you from adam and I don't think I've ever even run into you before in a thread but will you help me from killing my plumerias please via d-mail? So far I've got them in Pro Mix (in the event you are curious; I didn't add any pumice, clay, or silt to that). That's as far as I got, it was easy and pre-mixed.

Hi ya Lauren!!! Let me do the intro - Clare, this is Lauren...Lauren - Clare!!! There you go!!! Lauren - Clare is my Plumie Guru (and a modest one at that). She will not steer you wrong - in fact saved me from killing my plumies a few times last year (my first year with them). The sticky she put together at the top of the plumie threads is FILLED with excellent info!!!

Of course, I will help you;-) Dmail me with any questions you have and be sure to check out the Sticky Thread at the top of this forum;-)

Dete, in reference to your quote in your thread, I don't know if you are implying that there is some truth that everyone is ignoring. My whole point here is that Ken was giving out bad advice when he said this:

"Sufficient moisture and Epsom salt will help them make it through the high temperature. The addition of lava rock, crushed lava rock or pumice in your soil mixture will help retain the necessary moisture when the temps get real high."

You first said "possibly just a goof-up" and then changed your tune to "just search the internet and this fact will become evident to you. (this is not something dreamed up on pals by ken.) it is a physical fact." I don't know why you changed your thinking on this or why you are defending Ken, but the fact remains, the truth is, pumice is used in potting soils for drainage, not for water retention. If you choose to be a part of that group and bring back misinformation here, I'm always going to call you on it if I'm around.