Yes, dripping condensate is the only water source --from the bubble surface and I think from the plants' leaves as well.
Roots don't noticeably rot. We take all the plants right outside in the Spring and they've been fine.
"Soggy" is hard to calibrate, but soil stays very moist.
Soil in pots now varies. Some have been repotted in line with advice found here, and unless I hear otherwise, I'll continue to do that. "Legacy" soil includes: a.) whatever the plants came in and b.) what I had used over the years before getting smart here: equal parts sphagnum peat moss, perlite and vermiculite.
Perhaps I should wick the legacy soil pots, to lower the PWT, then as I repot move to a better mix with higher concentration of large particulates. Should I strive to layer in a higher concentration of larger particulate toward the bottom? Maybe wicking in winter, no wick in summer would help make the same mix fine for both setups?
Container Soils: Water Movement and Retention II
Al,
Regarding your Basic Soil recipe and your Big Batch recipe:
1) What is.... "micronutrient powder (or other continued source of micronutrients)"?
2) Do you know of any organic CRF that I can use?
3) Where and how do you make/mix your two large recipes in your yard? What do you use to add all the ingred. to mix it all up?
4) Are both recipes for containers, as well as, plants in the ground?
5) Do you re-use any part of the previous season soil in container for the next season? Or, do you mix up fresh new soil for each season?
6) Is this Espoma product http://espoma.com/p_consumer/perfector_overview.html 'like' one of the items you mention in using? What about shale, as in this offered at High Country Gardens? http://www.highcountrygardens.com/catalog/product/H0025/
Thanks for all your help! Sorry if you've covered it before.
Marilyn
edited to add....... What are your thoughts regarding:
Espoma BioTone Starter Plus 4-3-3? http://espoma.com/p_consumer/biotone_02.html
Yum Yum Mix 2-1-1? http://www.highcountrygardens.com/catalog/product/99730/
I've used both in adding to container (and plants in the ground) mixes in previous years. Right now, I have a few/handful of bags of the BioTone Starter Plus in the garage to use.
What about using Worm Castings in container mixes?
This message was edited Feb 1, 2010 1:34 AM
This message was edited Feb 1, 2010 1:36 AM
I need much of the same info that Mary Beth mentiions above
Donna
1) There are many micro-nutrient preparations on the market. Two I commonly use are Micromax (insoluble) and STEM (soluble). These are primarily targeted at the commercial market, and not commonly available in packaging less than 50 lbs, unless you can find someone who will split the larger packages. More commonly available in smaller volumes is Earth Juice Microblast.
If you're diligent about fertilizing, and are using a fertilizer that is complete, in that it contains all the elements essential for growth, or you're sure you are supplying them (Ca and Mg are often/usually missing from most soluble fertilizers) you can get by with no problems just using an appropriate ratio in a soluble fertilizer. Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 does all the heavy lifting for me (It has everything, including Ca/Mg), but MG, Peters, and others also make fertilizers in in a 3:1:2 ratio - like 24-8-16 (most common) and 12-4-8.
2) CRFs are temperature controlled, while delivery of nutrients from organic sources is controlled by temperature to some degree, but in the end, organic nutrient availability is tied to micro-biota populations and activity levels. If temperature affects activity and/or any one of several other cultural conditions affect soil biota populations, nutrient delivery via organic sources is erratic and unreliable. While I adhere tightly to the 'feed the soil, not the plant' philosophy when it comes to my gardens and beds, I prefer soluble nutrient sources for container culture. There are very clear delineations between growing in containers as opposed to growing in the garden. Container culture is much closer to hydroponics than it is the garden, so what works in the garden may not work well at all in containers.
Additionally, the high populations of soil biota required to break nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains down into the elemental forms plants can use are also going to be cleaving hydrocarbon chains of soil ingredients, accelerating soil collapse. I look at it in the light of 'why go through the effort of building a soil that is potentially very durable, well-aerated, and free-draining, only to adopt practices that ensure these properties will be short lived?'
3) I usually only make very large batches of around 4 cu ft at one time. To do this, I spread an 8x10 tarp on the driveway. I add the bark, then anything powdered, then the peat, then the perlite, then spray it with water to keep the dust down. I use the back side of a garden rake to spread everything out & rough mix it, then I pull on the edges of the tarp to roll and tumble the ingredients to mix thoroughly. For smaller batches, use a wheel barrow or a large tub.
For the gritty mix, I work in batches by adding 1-2 gallons of each screened ingredient into a tub, moistening it, then mix well. After it's mixed, I dump it into a much larger container and go on to the next batch.
4) Both recipes work very well in containers. I usually use the 5:1:1 mix for plantings that will be in the container for 1-2 growth cycles. Keep in mind that pine bark-based soils remain serviceable for up to 4-5 times longer than peat-based soils, but I just choose not to press therm into service for that long. They get chopped up and turned into the compost pile or directly into gardens/beds at repot/depot time.
As noted above, growing in the ground is different than containers, so some revision and addition of the ingredients would probably be advisable if you wanted to build a soil for raised beds or similar - you would want the soil to be heavier and more water-retentive for those applications because the soil below will act as a giant wick and in most cases relieve you of any concern about perched water.
5) You CAN use some of the old soil if you wish. If you were making something like the 5:1:1 mix, I would probably start at a 5:2:1 or even a 5:3:1 mix of (unused) pine bark fines:used soil:perlite. Essentially, you would be replacing the peat fraction of the 5:1:1 mix with old soil, but since it will be coarser than peat, you can use more of it and still maintain the aeration/drainage, which is what makes the soil attractive to begin with (plus the $ factor).
6) Epoma's Soil Perfector is Haydite. It CAN be used in soils, but it is too large to be considered a substitute for either Turface or granite in the gritty mix. It has approximately the water retention of the AVERAGE between Turface and granite, so using it as a substitute for both leaves you with no adjustability (of water retention), and if you use it in addition to Turface and granite, it becomes superfluous (why use 3 ingredients to do what 2 do better?). If it was half the size, it would be a suitable substitute for perlite in the 5:1:1 soil, but it is soo much more expensive, it wouldn't make sense to use it.
The High Country Soil Mender also appears to be Haydite - probably the same product as 'Soil Perfector' in different packaging. It's possible that it's pumice, but pumice and Haydite are virtually interchangeable insofar as their physical properties are concerned.
The Yum Yum mix - again, this is an organic soil amendment, which may serve perfectly in the garden, but it's sure to be fine in particulate size and the release of nutrients will depend on a boom/bust cycle of soil biota in containers. I wouldn't rely on it to deliver nutrients when they are needed.
I can't say much about the Bio-Tone Starter +. It's benefit would seem to lie in the claim that it serves as a source of endo & ecto mycorrhizae. I haven't used products that are said to provide these fungi. I do notice the presence of mycorrhizal fungi in my containers with no help from additives when the weather is cool (early spring and late fall), but see no evidence of any mycorrhizal activity during the hot months. YMMV
To be clear, I'm talking about these products as they relate to container culture.
I don't use worm castings because they clog the macro-pores I try so hard to build into my soils, and they don't add anything beneficial that can't be had from something soluble that won't impact drainage and aeration.
****************************************************************************************************
When it comes to container gardening, I don't limit myself by adhering to a stand for or against anything based on ideology. I decide how I want to move through my gardening experience based on results. I've tried growing in containers with an organic approach, using compost and and soil amendments like blood meal, cottonseed meal, bone meal, various mineral additives, ........ and I'm a very experienced grower, but I always came back to the fact that there was more work, more frustration, and less satisfying results, when compared to the fruits of relying on highly aerated soils, often with a very small organic fraction, and soluble nutrient sources. I do understand the desire of many to maintain an all organic approach to gardening ...... and I'm right there with them in the garden and beds - just not when it comes to container culture.
Al
Al,
Thank you so very much for your long posting and for all your wonderful information! It is very appreciated!
We have a local Worm's Way http://www.wormsway.com/default.aspx?t=home&AC=1 in Northern KY that I can get both the Earth Juice Microblast and the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. How do I use both on container plants in each growing season?
http://www.wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=EJM405&AC=1
http://www.wormsway.com/results.aspx?t=prod&search=Foliage-Pro%209-3-6&cat=all&AC=1
Is the Earth Juice Microblast what is used when the container of plants is first potted and the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 what is used throughout the season?
When you spread your large tarp out onto the driveway and start adding your ingredients, what about the wind?
I know when I try to mix ingredients up for containers on the driveway, I have to deal with the wind and I've been using a cart before. I like your idea of an 8 X 10 tarp instead. In 2007 I did make my own container mix for the first time and tried to use your ingredients (couldn't find some of the ingredients). I really liked doing it. Last year I went with bagged potting mix. I'm really serious about mixing my own again this year and trying to get it right.
What do you mean about the "gritty mix"?
I've been thinking that I can't get my containers 'right' for the growing seasons with all organic, then I might have to go the route of the 'other stuff' (syn.).
Thanks so much as always!
Marilyn
Marilyn,
I think this is Al's gritty mix, in his own words:
"I grow almost everything I expect to go more than a year in the same soil, or that I intend to root-prune annually or every other year, in a coarse and spare mixture that is 2/3 inorganic and 1/3 pine bark. It retains water reasonably well, and you can adjust that by varying the ingredients. I also grow all my houseplants and succulents in some minor variation of this mix. It will certainly retain its structure for longer than an appropriate interval between repotting (different than potting-up). It consists of:
"1 part Turface (I screen mine, but you'll find it unnecessary)
1 part grower grit (crushed granite sold at feed stores as turkey grit)
1 part pine bark
Garden lime or gypsum (whichever is appropriate)
CRF (leave it out for hibs)
elemental sulfur (if appropriate)
micro-nutrients
"I didn't mention this soil because most are unwilling to look for the ingredients, but they all have multiple uses for building container soils and are wonderful amendments to have on hand, once you understand how they affect your soils."
_________
It's easy to search for the information Al has already provided, so thoughtfully and beneficially for all of us, right here in this post and its predecessor at
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/527353/
Let's not ask him to repeat himself. It's all on the record --THANKS, AL!!
Thanks, JP.
"I can get both the Earth Juice Microblast and the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. How do I use both on container plants in each growing season?"
Just get the 9-3-6 if it's available. It has all the essential elements in a favorable ratio to each other. HOW you use it is sort of by a schedule tempered by 'feel', and largely dependant on soil characteristics and your watering habits. So THAT really told you a lot - right? ;o) Assuming you're using a fast soil that you can water to beyond saturation so you're flushing salts from the soil when you water, try this:
Fertilize at 1/2 recommended strength every 1-2 weeks. If the temperatures are between 55-80*, fertilize weekly. If above 80 or below 55, withhold fertilizer or extend the interval to 3 weeks (this is especially true if you are using a fertilizer that derives it's N from urea, like MG, Peters, Schultz ....). IOW - have a plan, but be flexible and watch your plants. If you see something fishy, ask for help. It's difficult to over-water or over-fertilize if you use a little care and are using half doses. I have a fertilizer thread around somewhere, too, but with the search engine down ........ Does anyone know for sure if it's ok to link to my article at another forum site?
"When you spread your large tarp out onto the driveway and start adding your ingredients, what about the wind?"
Post a small lethargic child or large turtle at each corner if the wind is not cooperating, or wait for a calm day. ;o) No, seriously, it's not much of a problem. You can't work in a gale, but once you dump the bark on the tarp, it won't go anywhere. It does help to have an extra set of hands to help you mix when using the tarp, though.
I use the gritty mix (see JPs post above) for all my long term plantings. These include bonsai, plant's I'm growing on for bonsai, houseplants/cacti/succulents, and all other plants I expect to be in the same soil for 2 or more growth cycles. It's extremely long-lasting and because it holds good amounts of water while remaining highly aerated, very productive.
The gritty mix:
Al: I'm amazed at this thread's longevity. It's become the DG equivalent of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce (Dickens' Bleak House). Time to start a new thread.
Thanks JP for 're-posting' Al's gritty mix here.
Al,
Thanks for your information. No kids or turtles here (Grin), but I can use rocks on each corner.
I won't bother with the gritty mix (at least at this time), since I don't plant anything that won't last more than a growing season.
Could I have your thoughts regarding......
self watering containers http://www.gardeners.com/Self-Watering-Cortina-Planter/PotsPlanters_SelfWateringPlanters,38-601RS,default,cp.html
self watering conversion kits http://www.gardeners.com/Adjustable-Reservoir/PotsPlanters_SelfWateringPlanters,34-507RS,default,cp.html
self watering hanging baskets http://www.gardeners.com/Self-Watering-Hanging-Planter/PotsPlanters_HangingPlanters,34-368,default,cp.html
self watering container mix http://www.gardeners.com/Self-Watering-Container-Soil-Mix/PotsPlanters_SelfWateringPlanters,33-819,default,cp.html
all organic self watering container mix http://www.gardeners.com/Organic-Self-Watering-Mix/PotsPlanters_SelfWateringPlanters,37-798,default,cp.html
Drought-Resistant Container Mix http://www.gardeners.com/Drought-Resistant-Container-Mix/SoilMixes_Cat2,31-306,default,cp.html
And/or do you have a mix (or which one of your mixes) for those kind of plants? I often grow Agastaches in a container (for one season), as well as, in the ground.
Vermont Compost Container Booster Mix http://www.gardeners.com/Container-Soil-Booster-Mix/SoilMixes_Cat2,31-571,default,cp.html
Hanging baskets with AquaSav Liners? http://www.gardeners.com/Flower-Baskets/FlowerPlanters_Cat,38-582RS,default,cp.html#
Hydro-Mats for containers and hanging baskets http://www.gardeners.com/Hydro-Mats/PotsPlanters_HangingPlanters,11614,default,cp.html
Thanks bunches!
Marilyn
Thanks, Steve. My time has been limited lately, but I'll start a fresh thread later today. I posted the same thread at GW back in '05. It's still very active there and closing in on 1,500 posts. I'm surprised at the response, too.
MB - I wish I had the time to research each of the links you left me, but unfortunately, I have a plethora of other obligations, which is why I have to limit the number of topics I can discuss. If you would like to pick the most important questions that relate to soil, I'll be happy to answer them here; or, if you send me a Dmail with all the questions, I'll get to them - if you can be patient. Thanks for understanding.
Al
Please find the continuation of this thread here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/
Thank you for your interest and participation.
Al
Tapla, Just deciding to use containers. Thank you for so much great info.
1. Having a problelm finding Turface what can I use as a substitute?
2. Shall I use grandular gypsum or pulverized.
Once i have exhausted my supply cabinet I plan to begin working with ingredients that will
give me a 4 -5 year soil life.all.
Again, thank you so much for beginning this thread. confussedlady
1) You can buy Turface Here:
John Deere Landscapes
729 Carle Ave.
Lewis Center 740-549-2141
or
960 Claycraft Rd.
Gahanna 614-863-4013
Ask for Allsport - same product as Turface MVP.
2) It doesn't matter if you use granular (prilled) or pulverized gypsum. The prills are pulverized gypsum mixed with a binder and dropped from a prilling tower. They solidify into little spheres as they fall, but dissolve into much finer material when they get wet. They prill it so it works better in broadcast type spreaders.
Al
Please use this link to continue the discussion at the new thread:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/
Thanks,
Al
tapla, thank you for all the info. I am 65 and have had books about gardening most of my life. Some are so old they recommend using DDT. This is the best and most informative article on soils I have read in years. Thanks, Luciee {;^)
How kind of you to offer such a nice compliment, Luciee. My biggest hope is always that anyone reading my offerings will find some value in them, that they will contribute to your gardening success and add to the satisfaction you take from gardening.
Take care - and good growing!
AL
tapla
I don't mean this as a criticism, in fact it is a compliment, but there is so much information on this thread that trying to absorb all of it is making my brain leak out of my ears. I must print it all out and take it to read on my vacation this summer, instead of a novel. Good stuff.
I've been adding lots of 1/2"-screened pine bark mulch to my seed-starting cells, and have cured damping-off, despite being unable to stop over-watering.
I've improved root growth by a factor of 3-6, I think due to improved aeration, but still need to cut back on the overwatering if I want root balls in 128-cell trays to be extensive enough to hold the soil together firmly when I pot up.
I find (now that I look closely) that some bricks of coir, and some fine pine bark "mulch" bags have a lot of very fine stuff that I would call "powder". Next year I may try drying my sources of pine bark, and using the 1/4" screen to reject as much "powder" as practical.
Meanwhile, sometimes I strat with "medium" mulch instead oif "fine". I discard more coarse stuff from "medium", but what passes my 1/2" screen has less "powder".
(I don' discard anything, but the medium-large pieces get used as top-dress "real mulch". I save large pieces for later shredding.)
I found that "Home Depot junk mulch" is unusable. Maybe $2.50-$3.50 per big bag, but woody, BIG chunks, fine powder, wet and sometimes smelly. They didn't even know what kind of bark, but suspected "whatever was on hand that day".
Instead, I went to a nice nursery and bought their $7-8 per 2-cubic-foot "nice" mulch.
I thank Tapla for being able to start any seeds harder than Marigolds!
Corey
It may be my imagination, but laying down some rayon batting in the 11" x 21" bottom trays and setting 128-cell prop trays or 72-cell insert trays on that makes me think that bottom-watering works better.
I'm not really sure it wicks much water away from the cells, since there is nowhere "down" for it to go after it reaches the batting. Well, maybe 1/4" or 3/8" of grooves in the bottom of the tray. And if I overwater so much that there's visible wtaer in the grooves, I tilt the tray and suck it out with a turkey baster.
I do think that adding small amounts of water to the mat "shares" the water better to all the cells.
It DOES help me psychologically to hold back water when I see that the mat is still wet, or even damp.
And I imagine that if some of the cells are dry and others still wet, that they share water at least a little.
Tapla gave me the idea for "wicking", which led me to capilary matting for watering, but the wacky way I do it is not necessarily smart or effective. I give Al credit for the valid ideas about capilarity and the risk of perched water, but the dubius application I came up with is my own fault!
I agree that it is better to have a well-draining medium and sensible watering, than to play with wicks and hope they overcome some of the bad practices. But it seems to be helping me a little (or making me feel better, anyway!)
Corey
After recovering from recent total revision of left hip joint, I am now able to walk around my yard without use of cane or walker, where even enough. I do have a problem with trying to do anything on the bank. I have a fellow helping a little, 4 hours a day 2 days a week, but that helps.
I did have him bring into fenced part of yard, 2 apple bins, 2feet x 4 ft. They have a commercial black plastic liner each, with holes for drainage in bottom. They are filled with layer of 2 year old utility chips that were delivered to my yard about 3 years ago, and used whenever needed, about 5 or 6 " in bottom. Then layers5 or 6" each of old leaves, compost (mine) Manure Blend (pretty much useless), , repeat layers. Then topped with Whitney Farms premium planting mix, with alfalfa pellets, bone meal, bloodmeal, and a locally produced organic fertilizer, 9-3-4 all mixed int the top Whitney Farms layer.
The above is all an experiment for me. The bins hold a lot but should be good for several years with additions in the spring. Forgot to mix in the pine fines that I have on hand. Will do so next season.
I have one bin planted in square foot grids. The other is waiting for the rain to stop for me to plant.
I had a not pleasant surprise yesterday when I went out to check on the apple bin raised beds. I had planted a fairly good size tomato, 12", that I grew from seed in one of the middle squares. Something had cut it off about 2 above soil level. Nothing laying nearby in the bin planter, and other tings not hurt. If a bird cut it off why would it and why was nothing left. No tracks in the soil, Deer not in the yard.
I will try to send along a picture.
Donna
9
This is a fantastic thread about water dynamics in soil!
Has anyone considered using felt pots like these https://www.owlyn.com/10-gal-root-pot.html that you can place inside a more attractive decorative container? Then you can easily allow some air circulation around the whole soil / rooting area. It is also easy transfer plants to different pots if you choose.
I have a question for Tapla.
How high will water wick in a medium? I want to wick water 48". What kind of medium would I use?
I am looking at building some 48" tall tower gardens. I would like to be able to water these from a standing water source.
I want to thank you again for your very informative posts. Each one is an education.
We are so lucky to have you spend your time writing for our edification.
I originally posted this over on another forum. I subsequently searched and found this would be a better place to ask my question.
Paul.
I don't think it's going to happen. How high a medium will wick water is related to the particle size of the ingredients. Media that wick water to extreme heights would require a particle size so small there would be insufficient air in the root zone for roots to function. The entire thread is devoted to emphasizing the importance of ample volumes of air in the root zone and how to ensure a favorable water:air ratio. Sorry. If you're looking for 'maintenance free', about the closest you'll come is some sort of drip irrigation set-up.
Al
This thread has been continued due to length and loading speeds for some Find the continuation here:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/
Lonejack:
Maybe a bubbling tube to hoist wtaer to the top, then let it drain down ??
Position a big resorvoir OVER the tower instead of under it? Use a big cotton wick from the overhead rerservoir, or some dripping mechanism.
much thanks to u all here..especially tapla .. i have always done what my
mom did..put chards at bottom of big pots and just done fine..until..... i potted
up a big amorphophallus corm last yr..did same.. and lost it.. not just from water
retention in soil..other reasons too..but..i started to evaluate what i was doing..
much thanks for discussion on soil mix,drainage, PWT...
in my pursuit of the best potting mix for specific plants. especially my amorph
big corms.. i am going to use a high % of bark fines from now on.. im going to use
as thanks again tapla..has brought up on other forums.. similar sized particles in
my mix.. i dont have a good source for "chunky" perlite here..so im going to use
pumice ..
much thanks to u all..hope to see many more posts on sucesses..and what we all
want to shake up..
Best luck!!
Al
thanks al.. theres so much to learn..i consider more than just
an amateaur..but..theres always someone that has more experience
knowledge,whatever..grateful to learn..
Hardly a day goes by that I don't learn something garden-related from the forums that I'm glad for knowing. We can all learn from each other. That rocks. Knowledge moves you forward faster than any other thing I can think of, even experience. The fastest way to learn is to gather as much knowledge as possible, and validate it as soon as possible (before you forget) through practical experience.
Al
Misc:
Al, that is the coolest looking "table" (in pic #2) that I have ever seen!! What is it, and how did you do it!?
I completely agree with you; gathering that knowledge and putting it to work ASAP has helped me truly learn stuff faster and more thoroughly than anything. (not to mention, getting my hands in the dirt is always fun!) :)
im so grateful to so many here..and other garden friends..
i find im drawn to not so usual plants..especially here in utah..
LOL my local sources of info are very limited..i think its my stuborness
that keeps me seeking out people that know and have experience in
growing the plants i love..
its good stuff for sure !!!!
That's a Picea pungens glauca 'Globosa Nana' - a globe baby blue spruce. I limited the height by pruning with a hedge trimmer, pruned it into a circular shape - as seen from above, and used my fingers to rub or pull off all the needles and new buds on the underside. You can literally set a glass of water on it. I have one at my place of business, too.
The 'table' is just a 2'x2' patio paving stone that I set on top of a large overturned ceramic pot that I wasn't using for anything. I have another similar arrangement - I'll show a picture below. I don't mean to take the thread off track, sorry - we should prolly stay on the topic.
Here's my 'comma' juniper just after a pruning. The brown goes away as the new growth comes in.
Al
I'm very glad you're here as well Tropical, it's certainly a wonderfully friendly place to learn about the plants you love. (not to mention the soil that we all love as well!) :)
Speaking of which, Al, the Spruce is the "table" to which I was referring. That thing is slicker'n snot on a door knob. I see that it is not growing in a container.. so, in the ground, what do you pay attention to for something like that, soil-wise?
And to speedie's question - how long did it take you to grow that Picea pungens glauca 'Globosa Nana' to that shape?
(BTW, we are all ignoring the fact that this thread has been continued at http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/, which is maybe ok since we are thoroughly off-topic.)
It took about 3 years in the ground before the plant revealed what it wanted me to do with it. Within a couple of years after that, it was well on the way toward its table shape. It's now about 15 yrs old, I'd guess. It's a little under 4' in diameter and the foliage mass is almost a perfect circle 2-3" thick.
Al
Oh Al, you are really an inspiration. That is simply stunning. If I got one, my plant would probably only reveal that it wanted to be left alone! But I'm determined to try anyway!
How frequently do you prune it?
This message was edited Feb 13, 2013 9:50 AM
I prune it yearly, right after the new buds have opened. I make sure the top is as flat as I can make it, then I use my hands & a pair of scissors to reach into the underside to make sure the foliage mass is as thin as possible. It keeps me outa the bars and off the streets. ;-)
Al
LOL, and thanks!
What a great thread! I am to print it all out and take it to bed to read, loads of information!
And don't forget to head over to Part III for more good reading! You can find it here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/
**Hint**. ;)