Container Soils: Water Movement and Retention II

I have never been able to find Turface sold locally on a retail basis. Where do you find it for sale?

My question as well.

I get mine from a feed store in my area. It is used for the county school ball fields to dry out the field.

I buy from a nursery/landscaping wholesaler who delivers by the pallet, but if you go to http://www.profileproducts.com/sports_fields/index.cfm?lp=gb&bhcp=1 and click on "Where To Buy", you'll find drop-down menus for product and state. Select Turface and your state and a partial list of possibilities will appear. ;o)

Al

I did that some time ago, and just got their local rep who sells to golf courses, etc.; he was not in the least bit interested in helping me.

Newsom Seed, Inc.
Fulton
(240) 554-0359
www.newsomseed.com

Fisher & Son Company, Inc.
Savage
(301) 604-9852
www.fisherandson.com

John Deere Landscape
Serving multiple locations. Contact them for a location near you.
(800) 347-4272
www.johndeerelandscapes.com

Maryland Chemical Co.
Baltimore
(410) 752-1800

Pennington Seed
Laurel
(800) 732-3332

R&D Cross
Brandywine
(301) 579-2449

Al

Any help for me w/ Turface??? I'm in New England.
My source for the Espoma Soil Perfector ($$$) just dried up; they no longer carry it.

Try www.johndeerelandscapes.com and use their locator to find the store nearest you - then ask the store if they have AllSport Soil Conditioner or if they will order it for you.

Al

Thanks, Al. I'll call around.

One problem is that it doesn't come in small quantities. The smallest quanity is 40 lbs.

I would be happy to buy 40 lbs, or even twice that. But I don't want to buy a ton.

Bad news! Espoma has discontinued its "Soil Perfector". According to an Espoma rep, the retailers "didn't know how to position it" (seems more like Espoma's problem). They filled and shipped the 2008 orders, but aren't taking any more. I bought all that I could find (2 bags), and have since used it up. Too bad! It is/was a great container amendment, and I know bonsai retailers always sold it.

Al: If you already answered this, I'm sorry to be asking again.

You wrote above that you use the following formula for relatively long-term containers:

1 part Turface (I screen mine, but you'll find it unnecessary)
1 part grower grit (crushed granite sold at feed stores as turkey grit)
1 part pine bark
Garden lime or gypsum (whichever is appropriate)
CRF (leave it out for hibs)
elemental sulfur (if appropriate)
micro-nutrients

How do you decide whether to use lime or gypsum, and how much do you use?
How much CRF?
Is the sulfur needed only if an acidic soil is desired? Is elemental sulfur the same as garden sulfur?
How much micronutrients? Is manure an acceptable substitute?

Just want to report on results of wicking my bulb pots last fall. All my bulb containers produced nearly every bulb that was planted. We had a normal winter here. The container soil is very free draining. I had lots of tulips and grape hyacinths in the pots earlier.

I'm sorry, Happy. Somehow your post must have slipped between the cracks & I didn't see it until Revclaus posted. I wasn't ignoring you. ;o)

How do you decide whether to use lime or gypsum, and how much do you use?
How much CRF?

I use gypsum in the gritty soil because it's initial pH is somewhere around 6.0-6.5 and that's in the ideal range. If I/you add lime, it raises the pH, and generally, pH continues to rise as soils age, and that can create pH induced nutrient deficiencies. I also use gypsum in the soil for plants that have difficulty absorbing some nutrients at pHs of 6.0 - 6.5 and above. We usually refer to these plants as acid lovers. Using gypsum usually keeps the pH of the 5:1:1 mix described above under 5.0. Though the pH of the medium is less important than the pH of the nutrient solution, it helps to try to keep media pH in a range favored by the plants.

I use lime and gypsum at the same rate. 1/2 cup per cu ft or 1 tbsp per gallon of soil. By coincidence, the 'medium' application rate of most CRFs (4-5 lbs per cu yd) figures out to about 1/2 cup per cu ft or 1 tbsp per gallon, also.

Here's the deal on the elemental sulfur. If I add it to soils, I get greener plants, so I usually include a tsp per gallon in my soils. I don't often mention it because I'm not sure why it works. It's supposed to be insoluble & ineffective at lowering pH in container soils. It may just be because there is no sulfur included in most of the popular soluble fertilizers like MG. Pine bark and peat soils both are low in sulfur, so it's very possible that what I'm seeing is a deficiency correction. It could also be that it actually DOES lower soil pH and make elemental Fe, Mn, and others more available. If you're using a fertilizer that includes it, or if you are using Gypsum and Epsom salts as your Ca & Mg source, disregard it - both contain sulfur.

Is elemental sulfur the same as garden sulfur?

Garden and agricultural sulfur are the same as elemental sulfur. They are all about 90%.

How much micronutrients? Is manure an acceptable substitute?

How much micronutrient mixture depends on what you're using for fertilizer. If you are using something like the Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro 9-3-6, it's complete and has all the nutrients. I can help you if I know what you're using or what you want to grow - or with a basic program, but I can't give you anything definitive with no info. Manure supplies 'some' nutrients, but it's high in salts and often full of seeds. It also breaks down quickly, so (imo), what little it offers in nutrient value is offset by its end detriment to soil structure.

Hi, Rev - Glad to know you found the wicking trick useful. ;o)

Al

Al: As always, you are incredibly helpful. A million thanks.

The best price I found for the Foliage-Pro is $20.90, with $12.50 shipping, from http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/. It looks as if it goes pretty far -- 1/4 teaspoon per gallon for maintenance (every watering), or 1 teaspoon per gallon for production (one a week).

AL you said :
Although sawdust in a mix results in high aeration porosity initially, its rapid decomposition would result in a dramatic decrease with time.

Question:
Would sawdust from Ceder, Cyprus or Redwood have a rapid decomposition?

I'm not sure of the context in which the comment was made, or if it's a direct quote. I sort of scanned the thread, but must have missed the post that had that comment in it. It's not just the rate of decomposition that makes me withhold sawdust from my soils. It's mainly the small particle size and accompanying compaction/water retention that puts me off.

Uncomposted materials with small particulates also tend to generate considerable heat as they break down, which can be a problem. Small particles also have a very high surface area:mass ratio, which makes them break down quickly, no matter what type of tree they come from, and serious N immobilization is much more likely to occur when using sawdust; but, to answer your question: Cedar, cypress, and Redwood sawdust would still break down quickly when compared to larger particles of pine or fir bark, but they do break down at a less rapid rate than sawdust from such trees as pine or hardwoods.

Al

Reason I was asking was that pine bark around here bagged as mulch or soil amendment is too large, that I have to run it thru a shredder and screen it to get it small enough. I could of just as well run some other material thru the same process. A lot of ceder around here. Anyway thanks for your input.

Sawdust can swing the soil very acid so care is called for. Wood chips can be pretty good however, especially for adding to the mix to pot citrus in.

Cedar is used to name a very wide range of woods, hardwoods and softwoods alike. Some cedar is phytotoxic and should be mulched and rotted into soil before putting on a plant you love.

I use cedar shavings as a mulch for some plants, but I make sure I know what 'cedar' the cedar is first.

Bob

The average pH of various sawdusts is around 4.0, which is not much different than sphagnum peat (higher, actually), so I don't think that IF a person was to include sawdust in their container soils they would need take any more care than they would adding peat. Simply adding a liming agent would/does solve the problem nicely, just as it does for peat.

How sawdust would react in a container soil as far as pH is concerned: As the organic acids formed during sawdust decomposition break down, ammonia is released and combines with H to form ammonium and the pH rises. As the ammonium is consumed by soil biota, H ions are released and pH falls, stabilizing around 7.0. When compared to the possible harm from N immobilization and the phenol generated, not to mention the compaction/water retention issue, the pH factor is actually pretty insignificant.

I can't agree that "wood chips" are a good choice as a soil ingredient, unless they are conifer bark chips (or unless you seek out a particular species known to be slow to decompose and not prone to producing phytotoxins during decomposition, like redwood or eucalyptus). The hydrocarbon chains in sugars & proteins within cell walls of whitewood/sapwood (and hardwood bark) are very quickly broken down, leaving primarily cellulose/hemicellulose which is also quickly cleaved by microorganisms. The explosion in microorganism populations typically creates severe competition for N between the microorganisms and the plant. Since the microorganisms are more efficient at extracting N from soil solutions, N immobilization/ drawdown/ deficiency, is the result. Additionally, the high micropopulations are very efficient at quickly reducing soil particulate size, diminishing aeration and increasing water retention. The hydrocarbon chains in conifer bark are very difficult for microorganisms to cleave, supporting fewer and and a more stable population of microorganisms, which slows decomposition, reduces N drawdown, and helps to insure structural stability in container soils.

Al

What a great explanation, Al. I catch myself hanging on to every word.

So I can soak this in, "As the ammonium is consumed by soil biota, H ions are released and pH falls, stabilizing around 7.0" The stabilizing to 7.0 happens only if you add the lime (or other pH altering ingredient), right?

If so, Is this why adding lime to a soil/medium takes a while to neutralize (7.0 pH) the soil/medium, due to the fact that the H has to be released first and it takes a period of time?

Sure do love these threads you've spent so much time on, sharing with us.

Shoe

Thanks for the Info! I must confess to having dated information on wood chips. They were quite popular for citrus ages ago, now coconut husk chips seem to be the popular method. That being said, I have had citrus do quite well in wood chip rich soil. The chips I have used have been predominantly Ilex vomitoria, yaupon, just because I have to clear it out and trim it back regularly and it fits into the chipper easily.

Bob

There is something missing here that definitely pertains to the discussion, esp regarding using some sort of wood chips/mulch and that is time. How long is the plant going to remain in this mixture before either being planted in the ground or having to be moved up to a larger size pot and thus a new mixture? In other words-does it really matter, in terms of wood chips/mulch breaking down/compaction (not PH) if by the time it happens, the plant is already rootbound and/or is going into a new medium?

For me, I like using some sort of hardwood mulch as one of the ingredients because I know that the plant will only be in it for a year or so before i have to move up to a larger pot. And during that yr or two-the ratio of medium to roots is switching as the roots grow and develop. Once a plant is rootbound, it doesnt matter as much, I think, what the medium is-or what has happened to it-i.e-the breaking down of the wood etc. Rootbound plants need a lot more water as there are roots are sucking up that water and there is less medium to hold the water.
I am mainly talking about palms and tropicals that I am concerned about the medium. Tropicals growing so fast that they need to be moved up rather fast and palms that also seem to need to be repotted every 2 yrs or so. Perhaps others on this thread are growing slower growing plants that stay in a pot for many years without getting rootbound?

Tapla-am I right in remembering that you grow bonsai? What about these plants, whose tops are restricted in growth? Does that also restrict the root growth in proportion to the leaf output?

Horseshoe - For the record, I'm considering your question(s) as a continuation of the discussion about what happens to sawdust during the composting process. You ask "The stabilizing to 7.0 happens only if you add the lime (or other pH altering ingredient), right?" (

No. Actually the (dolomitic) lime serves 2 purposes. It adjusts the initially acidic pH of most peat and bark soils (as it would soils with sawdust in them too, if you were using it) and it also supplies needed Ca and Mg in a favorable ratio. It is not a required additive to stabilize pH, but it is used to bring pH into a more favorable range. Stabilization would happen (gradually/eventually) whether or not you added a liming agent. The organic acids formed as the hydrocarbon chains break down will be broken down or leached from the container. Eventually there will be nothing left of the woody material but small particles of lignin and the pH will be about 7.0.

"Is this why adding lime to a soil/medium takes a while to neutralize (7.0 pH) the soil/medium, due to the fact that the H has to be released first and it takes a period of time?"

No. Adding lime to raise soil pH is chemically complex. As hobby growers, we make our best guess & hope for the best. In applications where it is important to use liming materials to help achieve a target pH, you must take into account several things. The initial pH of the media, its buffering capacity (resistance to change), the target pH, and the effects of irrigation water. Dolomitic lime is slow to react simply because of its low solubility. BTW, the H doesn't come from the dolomitic limestone, CaMg(CO3)2, as you can see by the formula for the compound.

Tigerlily mused: "There is something missing here that definitely pertains to the discussion, esp regarding using some sort of wood chips/mulch and that is time. How long is the plant going to remain in this mixture before either being planted in the ground or having to be moved up to a larger size pot and thus a new mixture? In other words-does it really matter, in terms of wood chips/mulch breaking down/compaction (not PH) if by the time it happens, the plant is already rootbound and/or is going into a new medium?"

We generally don't care what inert soil components are made of as long as their combination as a whole holds air water (and to varying degrees - nutrients) in a favorable arrangement. You'll remember how I stress structural stability in the original post? When the organic component of a soil breaks down quickly, it supports huge populations of microorganisms that out-compete the plant for N. Adding sufficient N is a challenge because the microorganisms are better at absorbing N from the soil solution, so the N simply creates larger and larger populations of microorganisms. It's extremely difficult to the point of being almost impossible to balance N applications in soils made of whitewood chips. You either get in trouble with carryover toxicity when microorganisms die & give up their N which is then added to your recent N applications; or, if you are using the more common container fertilizers (say 20-20-20) you cannot supply enough N to satisfy the plant because the P & K levels go sky high and raise the levels of TDS (total dissolved solids) so high the plant experiences fertilizer burn (plasmolysis).

N immobilization is immediate when using whitewood chips, and lasts throughout the composting process , so the reasoning that the plant will only be in them for a year won't hold up to scrutiny. I'm certain you can do better by changing your soils to either a much higher % or inert/inorganic components or changing the organic component to some type of appropriate size conifer bark.

"Am I right in remembering that you grow bonsai? What about these plants, whose tops are restricted in growth? Does that also restrict the root growth in proportion to the leaf output?"

I am a bonsai practitioner, yes. I think we've left the subject of soils here? Reducing the green portion of plants reduces the amount of photosynthate (food) produced, which limits root growth. The plant will always try to reach a balance between the number of roots and shoots.

If you reduce the canopy only, a tree will focus primarily on replacing the lost foliage. The response varies though, according to when the reduction occurs. In many plants, if you prune in late summer, the plant is not so eager to backbud & grow new leaves as it would have been if the pruning occurred in early spring.

Tree reactions to root pruning only is highly variable by plant & season, so I'm not going to expand. The same is true of simultaneous pruning of roots & canopy - varies by plant & season; but if you have specific questions, I'll answer by D-mail or you can start a thread.

I'm glad to see there's some renewed interest in this thread, it's been pretty quiet for awhile. ;o)

Al

I love this thread!

Me too. I read it over and over.

Thanks, Al. You always give something to think about.

Gloria

I enjoy being here & feeling like I might be helping. I look at it as an extension of my hobby of plant husbandry.

Thanks for the very kind words. ;o)

Al

Al, you're the best! Thanks for clearing up some things for me (and, most likely, others as well).

"Stabilization would happen (gradually/eventually) whether or not you added a liming agent. The organic acids formed as the hydrocarbon chains break down will be broken down or leached from the container. Eventually there will be nothing left of the woody material but small particles of lignin and the pH will be about 7.0."

So, the further broken down the medium is then the more neutral the pH would be. If so, I wondered about that quite a few times, thinking of the soil under pine trees and how it is not always acidic, as many folks seem to think, and also trying to remember the results of what I think is/was referred to as the Haughley Project (part of it referred to how plants and plant parts break down and eventually produce a neutral pH, regardless of the type of plant).

By the way, thanks to you I also just realized I've never thought of the difference between "stabilizing pH" and "changing pH" (and what goes on in the process).

Big time thanks! And I'm glad to see this thread opened again, too. Very grateful for your time and patience w/us!

Shoe

This is by far the most focused and richest concentration of truly scientifically based advice on any topic anywhere on DG --there should be an award for that.

I too have read and re-read your posts here, tapla, and belatedly express sincere gratitude to you for enriching us all.

Al, thanks for all the help/advice. I do try to follow your advice. Bark fines are very difficult to find in this area, at least for me to find. What i am using now has quite a few too large pieces that i try to pick out, but works pretty good. Thanks again.
Donna

I really don't take compliments very well. I get embarrassed & even have to admit I blush when I read some of the nice things you guys have said. I think part of the reason is because I don't spend time here in search of compliments, so when they come, they're always an unexpected, but pleasing surprise. ;o) I used to think that if I didn't acknowledge a compliment, that it was the equivalent of humility. As I got older and after several friends pointed it out to me, I realized that if I didn't acknowledge the compliments it was robbing the wonderful folks who took the time to offer them of the recognition and appreciation they deserve for going out of their way to offer a kindness to another.

So, thank you once again for the very nice things you've said. Your sincerity and effort is always moving. I think the best compliment of all is when someone trusts enough to actually put the advice to practical use; and my reward is when I hear that it's helped in some way - whether major or minor. That's where I get MY kicks.

Now let's get back to discussing things soil-related. ;o)

Al

Al, You are truly a unique resource. You started me making my own soil when I thought I would open my greenhouses. The city turned down my greenhouse license but I still have the soil! And the plants I potted up then are still going strong.

Okay, Al - to make you more comfortable I will now start insulting you!^_^

And Victor is an expert at it. Hey! Victor!

Hi Gloria - how's your soil draining?! (Can't get too far off topic or Al will crack the whip!)

Its hard to find perlite nowadays - all of the Lowes-Home Depot in Tuscaloosa have stopped carrying it. So to make a new batch of soil Ill probably have to find it on-liine.

Most large greenhouse or nursery operations will be glad to order it if youi can be patient enough to wait until their next order, or already have it on hand. I have 4 or 5 sources for it in 4 cu ft bags near me & I'm not close to any large metro area.

Al

Just read your response to my post, Tapla ( got caught up finishng the pansy crop) and I was surprised at your answer. First off-I am talking about using only 15-20% of the total media mix in shredded hardwood (and that mainly for the longterm structural content). While it is true that decomposing hardwood does invite nitrogen tieup by the bacteria, nitrosomonas, this is easily overcome by a few steps. Growing your containers on the dry side -which should be done regardless of your media content, and by "dry side" I mean to not water unless the media is dry-and then water throughly and let dry out again, will both discourage/slow down bacterial growth and also slow down decomposition of the wood. Adding fertilizer-which again should be done regardless of the content of the media. You presented a negative "rollercoast " effect of trying to make up for the nitrogen tieup from the bacteria-ending in the plant being burned from a high TDS content from adding fertilizer. If what you said was true-all the plants that I had planted in this mix and added fertilizer to would be dead by now (or severely deficient in nitrogen)! In fact-they look great. The reason being is that plants can still get their nitrogen from both slow release and liquid (which is also absorbed thru the leaves , as well as the roots) and the TDS (total dissolved salts) is easily leached out when you water the plant well. As an aside-this is a good time to say to all-never liquid feed a very dry plant as all the soluble salts tend to concentrate in one place and it is a very real possibility of burning a plant by adding more salt. Always fert after you have watered a plant and the soil is at least moist. So, regardless of your media content, you want to watch out for TDS, and watering well will take care of that nicely. Also-all wood mulches have already decomposed to a certain degree to avoid any "heatup" in the bags that would pose a fire risk.

As well. with bacteria, there soon is a nice "ebb and flow" of bacteria both tying up nitrogen and releasing it, which evens out the nitrogen flow. Also, the bacteria release it in the nitrate form of nitrogen which is a more usable form for the plant. Another aside: with soiless mixes, you always want to find a fertilizer that has a higher content of nitrate nitrogen to the ammonical/urea nitrogen. Thus 20-20-20 is not as good as 20-10-20 ( both liquid ferts).

Landscapers have been using shredded hardwood in flower beds for years-applying it twice a year as they switch out annuals with no ill effects. The mulch that was on top and is not decomposed is worked into the soil ( and in many cases not soil -from so many years of adding the mulch) and new mulch added on top. Slow release fert is always added as well,. and the annuals don't experience any nitrogen deficiency
When I brought up the subject of bonsai plants, it wasn't to "leave the subject of soils", I had thought it at least somewhat obvious that I was trying to think of a plant that would perhaps stay in a container without needing to be moved up to a larger pot because of root growth. There aren't many plants that don't need moving up, and bonsai seemed like a real choice of one that didn't.

I write this so that anyone reading this who is already using some (again it should be no more than 15-20%) wood in their mixes not panic and think that they have to immediately repot their plants. Fertilize and water throughly once a week, and as some have said in the above posts-their plants look fine.