Container Soils: Water Movement and Retention II

"For me, I like using some sort of hardwood mulch as one of the ingredients because I know that the plant will only be in it for a year or so before i have to move up to a larger pot."

When you make this statement on a thread where we are discussing a soil that has as it's primary component pine bark - approx 75% of the total volume, it is easy for readers to believe you can substitute whitewood chips for pine bark with no problems. We know that is not true. It was only as an afterthought that you chose 15-20 as the % of the soil taken up by chips. There was no way for anyone to tell if you were using 1% or 90%, but regardless of the ratio of wood chips you use, it doesn't change the chemistry or what I said about how the chips perform/react in soils.

Why would we WANT to use any wood chips in a soil when we have a bag of pine bark at hand and it provides the same physical characteristics as the wood chips for a longer time w/o the N problems?

You mention keeping the soil on the dry side to compensate for the N tie-up, and using different fertilizers. How practical is that for most hobby growers? Most of the folks are here because watering issues have given them problems in the past. One of the primary points of this thread was to help people develop a soil that could be watered freely with little or no risk of the anaerobic conditions caused by the combination of poor soils and a heavy hand on the watering can. 'Keep it on the dry side' makes things more complicated and it's unnecessary if you use an appropriate soil. Additionally, I'm speaking primarily to hobby growers who need or want help here, not people who have the knowledge and wherewithal to make the necessary adjustments in their nutritional program to compensate for things like media induced N deficiencies. I try to make this easier, not more difficult.

Just because you can MAKE something work does not mean it's a good choice for everyone. I once grew a perfectly healthy spruce tree in a container filled with nothing but broken glass for a full year before planting out, just to prove it CAN be done, but that doesn't mean I want to adopt the practice across the board. I grant you that the including 15-20% wood chips as a soil component is likely to affect the N supply much less than 75%, but again, it doesn't change the chemistry, it's unnecessary, there's no structural advantage, and there is probably more expense involved because of the higher fertilizer rate. We also know there is more decision making & complications that accompany the practice .....

I have no problem with hardwood mulch being applied to the top of soils, but if you go to any soil/composting book/forum and check what it says about the practice - invariably they caution against the N immobilization that accompanies the practice to varying degrees - depending on the size of the material, type of material, and other cultural conditions. Incorporating it into container soils presents most of the same reactions as incorporation into garden (mineral) soils.

"When I brought up the subject of bonsai plants, it wasn't to "leave the subject of soils", I had thought it at least somewhat obvious that I was trying to think of a plant that would perhaps stay in a container without needing to be moved up to a larger pot because of root growth. There aren't many plants that don't need moving up, and bonsai seemed like a real choice of one that didn't."

I'm sorry I didn't understand the question. Bonsai is not 'A' plant. It is a way of treating plants to make them old-looking and keep them diminutive, so I couldn't have answered the question as asked anyway. A 'bonsai' could be an apple tree, pine, juniper, forsythia, ....... or any one of thousands of other plants. I have pelargoniums, snapdragons, coleus, and several herbs that are extremely believable as (they very much look like) small trees mixed into the collection of trees and shrubs I've styled. All bonsai eventually need to be bumped (moved up in pot size). With careful attention to regular root pruning, the owner can greatly increase the intervals between increases in pot sizes, but the unattended or neglected tree must be moved up in pot size regularly. Root pruning slows growth and the confinement of the container produces the dwarfing effect - that being primarily comprised of shorter internodes, less branch extension, and smaller leaves. A very good understanding of soils and their composition is also CRITICAL to the health and vitality of bonsai. I hope I've now offered a better answer.

Take care.

Al

This message was edited Nov 23, 2008 1:13 PM

Al, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain soils and mulches, and the other concerns with growing in pots. i may not understand everything, but I try to follow your suggestions. Thnaks

Donna

I appreciate the fact that it works! I have killed so many plants by potting up in purchased potting mix - the roots just go away. And buying plants at the local Lowes, Walmart, and Home
Depot have the same thing. The roots are not healthy. Often they are not healthy enough to last the plant long enough to get planted in the ground.
Tapla's mix solves that problem. Healthy roots are so much better than dead plants!

You're very welcome, Donna. ;o)

Thanks, Gloria. (o:

I'm not sure how much activity this thread might see before the holiday, so I'll grab the opportunity to wish all the people that were a part of it a day filled with the kind of blessings anyone would be thankful for. Happy Thanksgiving!

"A thankful heart is not only the greatest virtue, but the parent of all the other virtues." ~Cicero

Al

Thanks, Al.

As for me, Im making room in my life for two abandoned dogs. Its been 3 weeks now and there is no chance of finding a home for them. So they are stuck with me.

Please be kind to an animal friend this holiday season.

Thanks,

gloria

Back at you, Al!

Happy Thanksgiving to you, and to all others reading this!

Enjoy the day!
Shoe

Al - Happy Thanksgiving and thank you for helping us help our plants to thrive.

Please give us your opinion on this post I saw on a coleus thread:

Coleus: TheRoseGirl picture (to grow good coleus)

Subject: to grow good coleus
Forum: Coleus
TheRoseGirl wrote:
If you want your coleus to grow big and tall.Then put rotten cotton from a cotton gin in your flower bed.I did that and it made them spread out.So if you know somebody at a cotton gin try to get the rotten cotton that has been there the longest.


Thanks, Al.

Hey, Pirl!

We have a gin here. Cotton seed meal is a regular fertilizer that farmers use on their fields and people use on their gardens.

You have to watch out, though, because people use a whole lot of poison on their cotton fields.

This message was edited Nov 26, 2008 7:46 AM

I know nothing at all about it except for the fact that cotton supposedly takes everything of value from the soil. I don't even know if cotton seed meal is the same thing as "rotten cotton", as the person posting called it.

http://www.cottonsjourney.com/storyofcotton/page3.asp

the gin separates the cotton fibers from the burs and seeds. The burs are what making picking cotton so painful. They are sharp and can cut into the skin on your hands.

the part of the cotton boll not used could still have a lot of hairy white fibers and that's what is likely to be left laying around the gin. As I remember the seeds I got from the gin look like furry little balls maybe 1/4" in diameter.

Most commercial crops destroy soil. And that's why we are running out of crop land.
Some farmers are using no-till methods that are more conservative of soil fertility and structure.

Happy, Happy, Thanksgiving to you all

Donna

To you also Donna.

Pirl asked for comment on a post from the Coleus Forum.

"If you want your coleus to grow big and tall.Then put rotten cotton from a cotton gin in your flower bed.I did that and it made them spread out.So if you know somebody at a cotton gin try to get the rotten cotton that has been there the longest."

I think we're straying a bit too far from the subject of the thread, but I'll include comments about container culture to help steer us back to our original topic. Since her comment is out of context, I have no idea about what she meant by the phrase "spreading out". I'll assume that because she is recommending 'rotten cotton' she feels it has been beneficial and attributes improved growth characteristics to its use.

It's possible that adding the cotton to garden soils could affect the growth rate and to some degree the growth habit, but it's very unlikely that it would have unique affect. we would need to look at the reason why it changed anything before we attribute any change(s) to a particular soil amendment. The two reasons I can think of that it might change growth rate/habit: A) Incorporating it had some effect on soil tilth or structure. - or B) There was a nutrient deficiency that the amendment wholly or partially relieved.

In neither case, can you say that 'rotten cotton' (RC) would have similar effect if you were to amend your garden with it unless the application corrected the same soil structural shortcoming or the same nutrient deficiency. Could we just as easily improve soil tilth/structure with another organic component? - Yes, we could. Could we correct the same nutrient deficiency by adding the appropriate fertilizer/micronutrient or another organic component that supplied it? Yes we could. IOW, adding RC to a good garden soil is probably not going to have any noticeable effect on your Coleus.

Getting back to container soils: You only need to ask yourself a couple of questions in order to determine if it is a good idea in your containers. A) How quickly does it break down? If it breaks down so rapidly, providing enough nutrient value in gardens that it is easily noticeable, it's likely not a good choice in containers, and the reasons why are covered over & over above. B) How small are the particles or how water retentive is it NOW, and is it likely to exacerbate any water retention issues over the intended life of the planting? B is a no-brainer - needs no elaboration. ;o)

Ok - back to container soils now ..... ;o)

Al

Speaking of wood chips. A Virginia Tech study (patented - who knows why?) on using wood chips as a substrate to grow ornamental plants is at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7165358.html "Chipped wood as a substrate for plant growth". Apparently, up to at least 8 weeks there is little difference between pine bark and wood chips. I think the point of this study is for using the chips with plants intended to be grown quickly in the nursery and sold for immediate planting. Might be some application for a single season vegetable growing substrate. I think I'll add that to my list of experimental veggie planters. Wood chips around my neck of the wood are a lot cheaper than pine bark fines ($8 per yard vs $22 per yard - or even $0 per yard if I start with the electric utility tree trimmings). On the other hand you can use the pine bark over and over again and don't have to dump and refill the container with each crop.

I wonder if wood chips converted into charcoal would last longer. I've heard charcoal is very long lasting in soils and has a nice cation exchange capability. Pretty easy to fill a 55 gallon drum with wood chips to partially burn and turn them into mini charcoal chunks. But that reduces the chips about 50% in volume so they would actually end up costing $16 per yard. Ought to be cost effective with the free utility clearing wood chips though. 'Nother experiment maybe. Need more containers. Probably more yard too.

Dan

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/CN004
Very informative article that covers a lot of the stuff Tapla has said.

That's a very good article, but doesn't have tapla's fine, patient clarity --or personality.

Right on! Just reinforcement to show that our man knows what he is talking about.

"tapla's fine, patient clarity --or personality. "

YAY! well said. I am a fan.

Al, I am going to be mixing up your soil formula as soon as I can locate everything but I have a question. When you say "controlled release fertilizer" and later refer to MG 24-8-16 I am confused. I have used MG 24-8-16 for years but always the water soluble version, which I do mix with water first. Are you saying to mix 2 cups of this SAME granular, water soluble fertilizer & add it dry to the soil mix? I always associated CRF with something like Osmocote. Please advise....Girla in 31 degree central Texas!

I usually include a controlled release fertilizer (like Osmocote - and different than slow release) in soil recipes simply because many hobby growers are not very good at maintaining a fertilizer regimen and the CRFs at least guarantee SOME nutrients. ;o) I leave them out of soils more often than I include them. If you're good about staying on top of supplying nutrients, then you only need to use something soluble, like the MG 24-8-16 or 12-4-8 for most plants. I really like the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 for most things because it has ALL the essential nutrients AND it supplies almost 70% of its N in nitrate form, which means I can be comfortable applying it in cool (<55*) weather with little worry about ammonium toxicity. I like compact plants, too, and the nitrate-N also helps in that regard.

I'm not sure where you got the '2 cups' thing, but I wouldn't mix soluble fertilizer into the soil. For most CRFs, like Osmocote, 5 lbs per cu yd of soil is a medium application rate. This calculates to about .4 oz (by weight) per gallon, so you should be fine with a level tbsp per gallon of soil. Use 1/3 cup per cu ft if you're making larger batches. Many people using these faster soils use CRFs at lower rates as a 'back-up', just in case they 'forget' an application in their regular program.

Al .... in soon to be sub-zero MI. ;o)

This message was edited Jan 27, 2009 6:48 PM

(under 55*) temperatures without much concern for the ammonium toxicity levels urea/ammonium based fertilizers can cause.

I'm not sure where the '2 cup' thing came from, but I wouldn't add soluble fertilizers like MG to a batch of soil. For most CRFs, like Osmocote, 5 lbs per cu yd of soil is a medium application rate. This calculates to about .4 oz (by weight) per gallon, so you should be fine with a level tbsp per gallon of soil. Use 1/3 cup per cu ft if you're making larger batches.

Al .... in soon to be sub-zero MI.



This message was edited Jan 27, 2009 7:49 PM

This message was edited Jan 27, 2009 7:50 PM

i have learned a little about the availability of Turface in Texas after talking to their sales rep. It is marketed under the name of All-Sport (private labelled) for John Deere Landscaping places. It used to be sold in wal-mart and other retail places under the name of Profile soil conditioner but is not packaged that way anymore. It is still available under the Turface label mostly through landscapers, golf courses, & companies that build and maintain athletic fields. So. I still dont have any but I am closing in on it. Good luck everyone! (PS, I am buying a pallet when I find it...someone around Brownwood,TX want to split it with me?)

Would Turface be a good thing to add to heavy clay soil in garden beds?

Turface alone is not the way to remedy heavy clay soil, IMHO, nor is it really needed in garden beds. Yes, it will improve porosity, hold nutrients available for roots, and won't break down or affect soil chemistry --but you really need the organic components and the nutrients instead of the clay.

It's not needed in garden beds, since unlike permanent potted plants you can turn the soil regularly in a garden bed.

Here in DC, I remove as much clay as I can, and just get rid of it, taking care not to leave a "clay pot" within the soil from which water can't drain well --I cut drainage paths from the deepest part of any hole in clay. Once you get the clay out, and ditch it somewhere, fill the hole with a mix such as tapla recommends and you'll do well.

Oh i just read both threads. I have been here for 2.5 hours!! And Al I must say you are a good bed time read!!! I loved every bit of your advice and can't wait to make the "mix".
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your calm, knowledgeable answers!
So interesting to see you are from Michigan!!
You have done all DGER'S a great service in your free flowing information!
Julie

Awww! Thanks, Julie. How nice of you to take time to share such kind words. If you need help making the soil or finding any hard-to-find ingredients - just let me know. I see we're almost neighbors. ;o)

Al

QUOTED: a good bed time read!!!

HMMMMM! I hadn't thought of Al that way!

I grew up near Traverse City. Does that count?

Al - forgive me if you have already covered this and I have overlooked it but am about to prepare your recipe (FINALLY I located pine bark FINES last Fall at an out of town garden center) but when you list CRF - what nutrient percent range do you usually use? I have 19-6-12 on hand. What do you use for the micro-nutrients? Thanks much

Mich,

I think your CRF will work fine. For minors, Al likes Micromax, and that is what I use. The only problem is that it is hard to find. It comes in something like 40# bags. It would be nice if they made a 2-3# container for us hobbyists!

SB

The 19-6-12 is almost exactly a 3:1:2 ratio, which is very close to the ACTUAL ratio in which plants use nutrients. It is the best choice for your 'all-purpose' fertilizer. It even says so on most packages. ;o) If you check the label, you may find that the 19-6-12 supplies only NPK, in those ratios respectively. That means you must supply the secondary macro-nutrients AND most of the micro-nutrients. In a bark/peat soil, the nutrients most likely to be deficient are calcium, magnesium, sulfur, boron, and zinc. The best way to supply these elements is to use a fertilizer that already has them present. Usually, you can get by with one of the MG products. Since you use lime in the soils you're making, that takes care of the Ca/Mg. MG has Fe, Mn, and Z, but that leaves S and B as a problem. The S can be supplied with a little powdered sulfur mixed in the soil, leaving only boron as a potential issue.

I've found it's just easier to incorporate Micromax when I make the soil, or if the planting is in its second or third year (the gritty soil mix), I use STEM. As Bob mentioned, these products are often difficult to find in reasonable quantities for the hobbyist, but you could use something like Earth Juice Microblast as a source of the minors.

A fertilizer I've been using extensively is Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. I recommend it highly for most applications because it contains all the essential nutrients in the proper proportions. It is about as fool-proof as it gets.

If Steve is following this thread, he might want to discuss the benefits of a product called 'FertiSorb'. I haven't yet tried it, but I trust his judgment and he says it rocks! ;o)

Al

I've been following this thread and its predecessor even through my slow loading days of dial-up (wow, the time it took!), and am grateful for Al's willingness to impart what is an obvious deep appreciation and understanding of this topic.

My education in plant nutrition comes from sitting at the feet of the gentleman who invented the product I'm trying to sell, a microbiologist and true renaissance man who's forgotten more about fertilizer than I'll ever hope to learn. His initial aim in developing what has become FertiSorb came from his experience in seeing plants grown in soil rich in iron die of iron deficiency because of the alkaline nature of the surrounding soil, which binds iron. He taught me that micros, while being necessary on their own for plant development, also facilitate the uptake and assimilation of all the other needed elements. I had to reach WAY back to my days of high school chemistry to understand the relationship these elements have upon one another. Al's discussion of this issue over the course of this thread is remarkable in its clarity, which also shows that he paid a lot more attention in chemistry class than I ever did. ;-)

Dr. Youssef's focus for FertiSorb was to create the most efficient platform for nutrient delivery that could be found, making nutrient available in sufficient quantity for proper plant development in any type of soil or pH while minimizing the actual amount of nutrient (especially NP and K) delivered. We've accomplished that with our process of incorporating nutrient, including micros, into the structure of a water-holding polymer, and get good results over a typical growing season with up to 6 times less nitrogen than would be used if water soluble fertilizer were applied at label rates. FertiSorb also has the added effect of "buffering" pH toward neutrality.

CRF technology has improved remarkably over the past 10 years, particularly with the advent of a more permeable membrane surrounding the nutrient in each prill. However, CRF nutrient availability is still dictated to a great degree by soil temperature, which in containers is a very big issue. Our product doesn't rely on temperature, our nutrient availability is based on moisture.

I hope this post isn't perceived as self-promotion. This is a product I truly believe in; I was given an entree and I think it's appropriate to this discussion. I just also happen to manufacture and sell it. I'm also a lawyer, so make any "lawyer selling c**p" comments you wish. I'll put the best ones on my website. May Spring visit all of us very soon.

I am ready to put Al's recipe together but I am still unsure of what I am supposed to be using for MICRONUTRIENT POWDER. I can't find a thing at the store that is a micro powder. I realize in one of your notes Al that you said that MG (MiracleGrow?) along with the lime would provide all the micronutrients except boron but regular MG is NOT continuous release plus it has all the NKP. I don't think you are recommending using MG instead of the Expert 19-6-12 CRF I went out and bought but I am not sure how I am supposed to be using MG (or working in micronutrients) along with the 19-6-12.

Scenarios: #1 Add the 19-6-12 to the batch and feed the MG over time? But what about good old boron?

#2 Skip mixing the fertilizers to the batch altogether and add them as i am potting. This might be helpful too because I woud probably use a different Macro composition for tomatoes and peppers (the only two veggies I am growing).

I am really looking forward to using this recipe this year.

LOCATING PINE BARK FINES: (With Al's approval) I'm suggesting you might try contacting the company below because sometimes they will tell you who they supply in what areas of the country. I got lucky and just happened upon it last fall at a small nursery way out of town (this is after hunting high and low for it all summer). The Brand is called Top N Turf from National Bark Sales in Boise Idaho and I see they have a website with an email contact.

http://www.natbark.com/

I haven't used it yet but it is definitely processed as FINE, which was the big problem in my search for it.

Hope this helps some of you. Michaelangelo

MG + lime will supply MOST of the nutrients likely to be deficient in bark/peat based container soils except S and B.

Some CRFs have the minors, and some don't. I don't know if what you're using does or not, so you might need to ck the label. If it doesn't include them, you need a source. You can probably find Micromax in small quantities, but I haven't seen STEM offered in anything other than 40 or 50 lb bags. You could p/u some Earth Juice Microblast online or at a hydroponics store, if you have one near, and use that, too.

Al

Hi All,
Excellent post and replies. I've read through the replies, but forgive me if this has already been covered. I have been unable to get pine bark fines after ring several garden centers. Am I right in thinking that "soil conditioner" containing pine bark is OK. I had a look at some and i looked OK but no too fine.
Thanks,
Nick

I am looking now also. All the garden suppliers in Dallas and Oklahoma city have taken them off the shelves. I would have to go to Georgia to get some.
Wonder what all the green houses and nurseries have gone to using.

I don't know what to tell you guys .... I don't usually have trouble finding it. When I find something that's ideal, I stock up by buying up to a pallet of it. There are two nurseries, one within 5 minutes, the other 15 minutes away, that have (literally) tons & tons of it. I didn't even look at the big box stores this year to see if any have it because it's so readily available & I like to buy from local businesses when I can. ;o)

Nick - just read the label on the bag. If it says the material is pine bark & not 'composted forest products', you're fine.

TAR - they're still using pine bark, but some (mainly greenhouses) may buy a ready-made mix. Greenhouses don't usually keep the plant material around long enough for soil longevity to be an issue.

Al

Al

Tapla,
I was wondering ???
i have a source of 'micro nutrient' powder from 'Peters'
Could this be used in your mix?
i am aware that you have never even mentioned it.
I use a 1lb. tub in my compost pile every year to help in the decomposition and i know most soils already have all of the nutrients available with out needing to 'buy' them ( exception noted to a depleted soil)
But would it be helpful in any way?? And if yes in what amount to 1 cu. ft of 'Tapla Mix' as i call it??
Thank You
Julie

Do you have a link to it so I can see what it is?

Al

The Home Depot here has the Golden Trophy mulch for pine bark fines. They didn't have it last month, so it may be worth it to recheck some places again.