forums available only to subscribing members

I understand that the idea behind making new forums available to everybody at first (subscribers and nonpaying members) is to generate interest and to promote a new forum, as well as to attract additional subscribers who might be interested.

However, it seems to me that this should be a limited time sort of thing... and many new forums have been up for a while -- maybe as much as a year or more? -- without having a change in their member/subscriber status.

What criteria are used to determine the ongoing status of a forum? Do we have to ask to have a given forum closed to nonsubscribers, or is forum status periodically reviewed somehow?

For example, some of the regional gardening forums are subscriber-only, but the Mid-Atlantic forum (which was created in February of 2006) and others are still open to everybody. A local DGer was recently startled by this (she posted some personal information and I suggested she might want to edit it out) and asked, "Well, what are we paying a subscription fee for then?"

Although I know that you can check the status of any forum by clicking on the "Home Talk" or "Garden Talk" forum lists, I think a lot of folks don't bother to do this, or don't know to do this.

I guess I have two separate questions...

1) Can we change the status of new forums after a certain length of time or a certain number of requests or some other criteria?

I would like to see more forums become available to subscribers only -- not necessarily be invisible to new members who might be curious, but at least have them inaccessable beyond the subject line and first post. I think this was suggested and discussed by several folks posting on the recent DG thread about subscription rates.

2) Can the status of the forum please be noted at the top of the forum page and/or on the Favorites list on our home page -- perhaps the same red asterisk (and explanation) that's used in the "Garden Talk" and "Home Talk" lists? That might increase awareness of which forums are open or closed to nonsubscribing members.

Thanks!

Critter, I think your idea to list the availability status of each forum is an excellent one. And I also agree that many forums should be opened to subscribers only. All of the regional ones especially should be closed to non paying member as these tend to become quite personal in nature. But, I don't mind having valuable input from non paying members in certain areas. Patti

I agree that there should be some forums open to both subscribing and nonpaying members, and I think the number of open forums could be less. I'm not trying to create a rift or to make nonsubscribers feel unwelcome... it seems to me there used to be only a few "open" forums, but that maybe the number increased along with the rapid proliferation of forums in general over the last year or so.

I'll be watching this thread closely, as I too, feel there are waaaay too many things on DG that are available to non-subscribers.

It was my understanding that any new forums created after a certain date (maybe when we went to subs?) would be and would stay 'open' forums.

Oh, really? I thought that was just a temporary thing, to have new forums available to both members and subscribers. Hmmm.

I might be wrong but I believe that is what was said. I too had questioned the regional thing. The ones that are closed were pre the magic date. The ones that are open were post the magic date.

Well, somebody from admin will probably jump in and let us know what's up with that. It would be nice to have a little extra privacy on some of the forums (and yes, I realize that with the number of subscribers that privacy may be more of an illusion)...

I also seem to recall somebody saying that there are some forums that are completely invisible to nonsubscribers (forum title, thread subjects, first posts -- nothing can be viewed), but I can't figure out how to see which ones those are. ??

I see my post visible to nonsubcribers all the time that I have posted on DG. I am not very happy with that at all. Why pay a fee if you can be a nonsubcriber and view everything. It is not fair to us subscibers.
Patti

So if certain forums are to be "forever open" could people in say in the Northeast Gardening or the Rocky Mt Gardening etc.just move over to the parking lot which is closed and start a new Northeast Gardeners group and post there? Another Patti

Patti B., I think that approach just ends up causing confusion, with people posting in forums according to whether they're open/closed rather than according to topic.

Somebody from IL posted a question about container gardening recently in the MidAtlantic forum... I started to re-direct her to a more appropriate regional forum or to the container forum, then realized that she couldn't access either of those as a nonsubscriber. So I made a couple of suggestions, nobody else responded, and she didn't post again.

I'd rather see the regioinal forums closed to nonsubscribers, maybe after an initial 6 month period or something. It'd be fine with me if members could still view thread subjects and first posts (especially with a reminder at the top of the forum that this was the case, so people could choose to start out with "see next post" if they didn't want something widely available)... and I think being able to browse topics like that would be sufficient to help somebody decide whether or not they were interested in subscribing.

Forums created after last year (when Dave divided the site into "Home Talk" and "GardenTalk" are almost all free (a couple were made subscribers-only, such as the re-introduction of the co-op forum, and the new swaps forum.)

Dave made a comment at that time that at some point we would revisit the new forums, and perhaps convert some to subscribers-only. We've had a couple conversations about that, but I don't know if he's made up his mind entirely which way to go.

I agree that the regional forums should be the same - either all open, or all closed. I would personally prefer to see the regional forums open to all because when we get a newbie/visitor inquiry, it's nice to be able to send them to an accessible forum for their area. Regional forums can be a great place to get your feet wet here at DG, and the subscribing members can encourage the non-subscribers to consider a subscription to the other forums and features here at DG. A lot of the regional forums plan impromptu get-togethers and plant swaps which is another great way to draw in the non-subscribers.

There are some forums that are completely invisible to non-subscribers. The Prayer forum, the DG forum, the Co-ops forum, the Roundup forums and the Parking Lot are all "locked down" that way. But even in those forums no one should assume that anything posted is private: we have over 7,000 subscribers. (I've lived a big part of my life in towns smaller than that, and I sure wouldn't write a letter even to a small-town newspaper and publish everything about me, my family or the intimate details of my life ;o)

rose318, try logging out and then running the same search - you will not see the posts you made in a subscribers-only forum.

I know that the get-togethers and swaps can be good to draw in non-subscribers, but I don't want to be publishing directions to my home in an open forum, whereas I might take a chance on doing so in a closed forum to avoid Dmailing directions to 38 people (I'd still go back after the event and edit out the directions).

Maybe we could identify a handful of forums that are "great places to get your feet wet here at DG" and then close a lot of the other ones. The new gardens.com site also should be filling some of that role now of drawing new subscribers into DG.... yes?

At any rate, it seemed like a good time to re-open the conversation about open/closed forums... I know there will be a lot of different opinions!

What about opening all the forums to everyone, but take away posting abilities to non subscribers?

I think it's a great idea for surfers to see what Dave's is all about but I think if you took away posting abilities, they just may be inclined to subscribe so they can post.

I dunno, maybe they can post and I'm just not aware of it, lol. I really need to spend more time here.

Jen, we tried that a couple years ago, and we're still waiting for some of our limbs to regrow...let's just say that wasn't as well-received as you might expect ;o)

Seriously, there is a fine balance here.

On one hand, we have all the concerns cited in this thread. (Just for the record, you don't have to post your address for non-subscribers: if your intention is to only invite DG subscribers, that's what the Roundup forum is for.)

On the other hand, what the general subscribership doesn't see is the angry notes from visitors and new registrations who are miffed that they are expected to buy a "pig in a poke" to get to the forum posts that led them here. (The volume of hate-mail has reduced dramatically since we created more forums for non-subscribers, but we still field a fair number of complaints along those lines.)

I do NOT agree to opening all regional forums to non-subs!!! Too many things have already been posted to the closed ones. I would LOVE to have all regional forums closed! The subject of open vs closed is one I have questioned several times, but I have never gotten a satisfactory answer. I still question the wisdom of spending 20 bucks a year when most of what I read is FREE!

Good luck critter - I wish you better response than I have had.

I said long ago, I'd post a lot more to the regional forum which pertains to me if it was limited to subscribers only. Anything that's said on a forum open to nonsubs comes up in a Google search that anyone in the world can access. I don't like it, don't feel comfortable with it, and certainly won't be posting pictures of anything that could identify my house. Log out of DG sometime and do some Google searches. See just what you can find out about someone. Google your own DG name and see what you can find out about yourself. You might be amazed. I avoid open forums as much as I can and would be totally happy if the vast majority of forums were sub-only. I got my hand slapped by another DG subscriber (not admin) the last time I voiced this same opinion, but it didn't change the way I feel. I'll never leave DG, and I'll always be a subscriber, but will also continue avoid those open forums. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any open forums, but geez, every new forum from now on will be open? I don't like that at all. Why not increase the number of Beginner forums, and let all those be open forums and close the others? That would give enough of a taste of what DG is about to pull in those who want more in depth information, I think. JMHO

Terry, that's why it makes sense to me to have a select -- but smaller -- group of forums that will always be open to both subscribers and nonpaying members. I'm not trying to discourage folks from subscribing, but I would think that being able to read thread subjects and first posts the way you can on most of the subscriber-only forums (I think) would take care of the "buying a pig in a poke" issue.

The only thing I accessed on DG before deciding to subscribe was Garden Watchdog... I took a look at the list of forums and thought they looked good to me! If there had been quite so many "free" forums then as now, I might not have bothered to subscribe... and then I would've missed out on some of the closed forums that I do use regularly.

Especially when subscription rates rose to $25 (before being dropped to the current $19.95), I think a lot of folks were questioning how much they benefitted from their subscription vs. how much their subscription was underwriting the cost of use by nonpaying members. To beat an old adage into the ground, why buy the cow when you can get milk free?... even if you can only get cream by paying a little extra, you might decide to just make do with milk.

JMHO, tgif, critter, I totally agree that the regional forums should be for paid subscribers only. A certain level of friendship happens when you feel like you are part of a selected community, even if this is a foolish notion.
I am extremely happy to have everyone's input in totally open forums that are less chatty than those that occur in the regional forums and in the parking lot, prayer, coop, the Id forums etc. Maybe there should be a general open forum that was for all who care to enter. Call in the "Big Green Tent"
As for people being annoyed about not being able to sample all the goods before paying, that is life. When do you get to try a dinner at a restaurant without paying? You read the menu, and decide if it is worth the money. Then you sit down and eat. You don't eat then decide. Patti

I think if you polled the "regulars" among the regional forums, you would find that those in an open forum prefer it that way; those in a closed forum would prefer to keep it closed. With a few dissenting votes thrown in for good measure ;o)

I think sometimes we forget that the regional forums are regional gardening forums. They were put in place to foster neighborly garden chatter among those who live near to each other. Highly personal information really has no place in a public forum - there may be only a handful of people actively posting to a thread, but you really don't know how many other casual readers and avid lurkers read what you write, too.

Personally, I use this standard: would I write this in a letter to my local newspaper's editor? If not, I'm not going to post it anywhere online either, whether in a subscribers-only forum or one that's open to the public.

As to which or how many forums should be open vs. subscribers-only...it's a cliche, but it's true nonetheless: you can't please everyone.

So we do the best we can to balance the needs of subscribers while making sure we are able to attract a healthy, steady stream of new subscribers, too.

tgif, maybe you missed Dave's reply to your question, but it looks like he tried to answer it head-on here: http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3169637

Patti, I would agree with your analogy except that we are competing for "diners" (paying customers) with restaurants that are all-you-can-eat.....for-free. So we have to entice them with some free (and hearty) appetizers ;o)

I'm on the fence with the regional forums. I'd like to think if they are closed, I'd be all warm and fuzzy and safe but it's not so.

I'm also meeting some really nice people close to my area that may not have subscribed just to see who else in Ohio grows tropical type plants or who else is worried about the frost or who else grows type X plant. I'd hate to lose them now that I've met them.

I feel like a lot of forums that were my favorites in the past, have sort of gone crazy. The posts don't seem relevant anymore.

I wiped out my home page and put back some forums only to remove them again. I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and won't say which things trouble me. I just think that the outline for each forum has gotten a bit muddied and some are such a mish mash that it makes my brain hurt.

I won't say I do not like the growth because it has allowed me to meet a huge new group of friends. Of course I sort of miss the old days where everyone knew everyone too. I find myself more of a spectator these days bopping to and fro.

Terry, while that might be true for some of the open forums, I'm not sure it's the case for the regional forums... with those, which ones are open vs. closed seems to be more a case of historical accident than desire or design. It makes little sense to me to have the older regional forums closed and the new ones open to nonsubscribing members.

Again, we're back at the question of... If new forums are designated as "open" initially while they are getting underway, can their status be revisited at some point after they've become established?

Or is every new forum from now on (with a few exceptions like the swap forum) going to be open to all?

That would make me even less in favor of the proliferation of forums that's been occuring -- and I know I'm often the person asking whether a new forum topic is really better served on its own than as part of an established forum.

Do we really want to be encouraging these kind of people to be part of our gardening community (whether they are paying to participate or not)? I don't care how much gardening expertise someone has, if their opening attitude is so negative or hateful, I would rather they stay away from my garden community. To me the community aspect of Dave's Garden is as important as the gardening aspect. I think it is what sets this website apart from and above all others I have visited.

Due to family issues, I haven't been able to spend much time here lately and when I do I mainly lurk. In some ways I miss the old days but I also recognize a lot of good has come from the growth. However, I would like to see more forums open only to subscribers and the regional forums seem to fall naturally into that category. There are other, broader 'open' forums where a non-subscriber can ask questions i.e. they can use the perennials forum to ask if a certain plant is hardy in a certain zone/area. They don't have to go to that particular regional forum to get an answer. And as others have mentioned, shouldn't there be some incentive for subscribing?

Ummm, well....testiness isn't the exclusive domain of non-subscribers ;o) We also have some who feel if they are a subscriber, they're entitled to act and speak any way they choose. Shrug.....

My point in bringing up the non-subscribers' point of view is because we do have to have something to show them it's worth joining and subscribing. That was a much more difficult sell when we had just one or two free forums.

Seriously, these are all good points, and it's really up to Dave to decide if/when to change the status of any forums.

There are also financial considerations (advertisers want their ads seen by the widest audience of people...which tends to occur in "open" forums, where non-subscribers don't have the option of turning off the ads or sponsorships.

Suddenly slamming the door on active participants within the free forums would leave a bad taste in a lot of potential subscribers' mouths, and we have to consider their reactions, too.

For all these reasons, think we'd all agree these are not decisions that should be made lightly or on the spur of the moment. Dave has mentioned elsewhere that he's working on some major changes to Gardens.com - that has been consuming a lot of his time and energy. There's also a roundup in his area this weekend, so I wouldn't expect a quick response or reaction from him.

Oh, I'm not asking for quick decisions... on the contrary, I'd like to see us toss different ideas around for a while and get a lot of input from various folks... I just figured it was time to revisit this particular discussion.

I still miss the days when this was just a small convivial site where we all knew each other.

We're happy to take constructive input on most issues, as long as everyone keeps in mind that:

- ultimately these decisions rest with Dave; and
- his decisions are never going to please everyone, and in some cases, they may not please even the majority and/or most vocal ;o)

This message was edited Apr 27, 2007 3:44 PM

I will add my 2 cents worth. I would like to see my regional forum open to subscribers only. I have only recently done a little posting there and don't feel quite comfortable.

I think one of the most important factors to this issue is how people are coming the DG and what is getting them to subscribe. For me it was an article in a magazine that gave me the link to the Garden Watchdog. I lurked around the forums and saw a question that I would have asked and I couldn't read the answer. So I subscribed. I'm not sure I would have subscribed then if I had been able to read the answer.

This was the first site I ever joined and I think the best part of the whole site is how nice people are. And of course Dave's content control.

Wow, lots of discussion here! I've been working outside shooting videos all day long so I am only just now seeing this, and I haven't read the whole thread yet. Terry has done an excellent job fielding a lot of these questions.

In brief, the decision is ours to make and we can do whatever we want to do. There are a lot of issues to consider, though, so we have to make them carefully.

First, none of the currently closed forums will become open, so rest assured on that one.

Second, and the question big question here... which open forums will become closed? I agree that too many forums are open and I'm amiable to closing some of them down for non-subscribers. Terry has in the past given me great lists of her proposals, and I'm willing to go with the most recent proposal (Terry, could you dig that back up and post it for me in the DG Admins forum?).

I'll look at her list, post it here for discussion, and we'll make a final decision and make it happen.

Dave

I subscribed, soley (is that a word?) because of the info that kept coming up in plant files-practically every time I googled a plant for more info.

It never even occured to me that I would read any Forums, let alone participate in them.
I just admired a Site that would put all that valuable plant information out, so that it could be available to the world- and I wanted to be a part of it.

Of course, once I subscribed and began "looking around" and was welcomed by several subscribers, I was hooked.

I can't imagine anyone being brazen enough to complain to any Site Owner/Admin about anything, unless they "put their money" where their mouth is".

I apologize if this sounds crude.

Sasha

dave, I was typing while you were posting, so not trying to "talk back", as it might appear.
I will, of course, respectfully and quietly accept your decision.

This message was edited Apr 27, 2007 8:15 PM

Hey, Dave! Thanks for revisiting this topic and considering reducing the number of open forums.

I appreciate the way you encourage discussion and consider various viewpoints, and I hope none of my comments implied that your decisions wouldn't be gracefully accepted.... my only intent was to bring the topic back up on your radar. :-)

(Videos, hmmmm?? ;-)

Dave and Terry, What if you allowed any one to see the opening page of all forums , but then only allow access to the opening "sticky" on the closed forums. That way you could share the good general information listed in a particular forum's 'sticky' and at the same time the viewer would see all the potentially enticing threads listed below the sticky. You could expand the "sticky" information significantly as a little free appetizer to those still not sure if they want to spend the 20 best bucks I have spent ever. Patti

I had no idea i was telling the world the way to my house off hwy 188 and yada yada yada.....then someone I know dmailed me to tell me the world could see what I was writing......................I worried about that for a long time and so did my family......still think about it every once in a while and add another lock to the house.
I just assumed that my membership would protect me in that Dave could track down anyone reading anything.....meaning that if someone did come after me based on what I said ....it wouldn't be hard for the law to find them based on information and who posted on which site....
In fact, if you want to know the whole truth, my brother is in the process of putting up cameras coming into the farm and putting up a cattle guard with a locked gate all because of what i have said and done on DG...not ever dreaming the world could read it....
it is a pretty scary world out there....and I didn't know I was a part of it all.......just naive me thinking I was posting in a very safe place....on DG...
gail
20 bucks is not a lot to pay but would perhaps dissuade people just looking for trouble to go find trouble elsewhere...
edited to say it was on the glad forum....I didn't even know at the time that some are open and some are closed.

This message was edited Apr 27, 2007 10:29 PM

I would like to say that I agree with Critter and the rest who would like to see regional forums closed to subscribers. I don't enjoy the GA forum because it's an opened forum, but my subscription cost is the same. :-) I hope the status of all regional forums can be revisited, and a balance of some kind can be found for both subscribers and non subscribers which would accommodate both.

Thank you for always letting us express our views. It's nice to know that even though ultimately the decision is yours ... we can express our viewpoint. :-)

This Subscriber versus member conversation has cropped up over and over since Dave first converted the site from all open to part open and part closed. The false sense of security in posting to subscriber only forums still astounds me. And to be quite honest I find it to be rather elitist and demeaning to think that a non paying member is any more or less of a threat than a paying member. This is not some expensive country club where the high dues are an added way of filtering out the rift~raft.

As I see it, and this is just my personal opinion, the only reason to make some forums and features closed to nonsubscribers should be based upon sound business principles. Will limiting certain areas encourage more people to subscribe? Since the ads also help pay for the site the non paying members are helping support the site to a point. But Subscriptions are also an important factor in keeping the site from faltering due to lack of profit.

This was true when Dave was the sole owner and was struggling to make the transition from it being a hobby site to when it grew so much it had to become self sufficient or drown his family in debt. It is still true now that is has been bought out.

So the decisions to open or close a forum or to limit searches all should boil down to a decision by the management as to what will be best for the business. As a subscriber it has no effect upon how I use the site other than that by subscribing all the options are available to me.

Zanymuse, For me it has nothing to do with "filtering out the rift~raft" , it is a pure numbers game. A few thousand that view a closed forum is a tad smaller that having the same posting open to anyone on the www. Patti

bbrookrd, I certainly never referred to 'rift-raft'!!!!!!!! There ARE people around looking for trouble....that is simply the world we live in .....

gessiegail, i was quoting zanymuse not you. Patti

sorry, bbrookd!!!!!
gail