What plants to use around my small patio?

Last year I began installing a cottage garden. I put in a small (approx. 10 sq ft) "bistro patio" last summer in the SW corner of my backyard. As things evolve, I will put in different 'garden rooms'; this is going to be one of those rooms. The photo is of the bare naked patio as taken this a.m. whilst standing in my veggie patch. I am facing East (South is toward the right side of the picture). Feeling rather non-commital at the moment, I'm thinking of putting in a border of annuals this year. Please envision yourself relaxing in a comfie chair on this patio, with your favorite drink in hand... What flowers / herbs do you see lining the patio border?

The vine on the picket fence is a young seedless concord grape. The plant on the solid fence is scarlet trumpet honeysuckle. The bed surrounding the patio is extremely narrow on three sides; I only have 8 - 10 inches to work with. Also, there is a drainage problem, so following a heavy rain this area gets standing water. Therefore whatever I plant will need to be able to tolerate wet feet *occasionally*. Hopefully, we'll resolve the drainage issue soon, but I'm not holding my breath. We would probably need to install a pump in order to make that happen.

How about some dwarf fruit trees? For height and screening.

This message was edited Mar 20, 2007 6:20 AM

Narrow beds are a challenge. What are you favorite, easy to grow flowers? I am fond of annuals, but, I saw a bed of Iris with summer annuals planted around them (don't have a photo) and I liked the planting.

Ooh, good ideas - thanks, Dale. I will do my homework on the dwarf fruit trees regarding sun, spacing, and hardiness. That corner gets morning and mid-day sun.

As for the iris, I happen to have recently been given quite a few mystery iris, so that's a great possibility for them.

The iris aren't a good choice for an area that gets standing water, as the rhizomes will rot. And I'm not sure that even espalied fruit trees could fit into just 10 inches (not to mention that digging a sufficient planting hole would be a big challenge).

I had a thought on the water issue though... what would you think about doing a raised bed there? I'm envisioning a long, narrow box, like a bottomless windowbox... That might also reduce the risk of plants being trampled as somebody steps back from their comfie chair.

I love the idea of herbs around any place where people will sit, just for their fragrance... but most herbs really hate wet feet... however, if you did an actual planter box (not bottomless), perhaps raised it up an inch or two so that it didn't sit in water, that could work really well. You could use both upright and trailing/creeping forms of thyme and oregano, maybe make a slightly bigger (or at least taller) box in the corner for a rosemary...

Such a pretty space to work with! Love critter's rosemary idea and the bottomless planter box would look lovely. While bearded iris would'nt like wet feet, Siberian, Louisiana, or Japanese Iris would be fine with the moisture, and the grassy leaves are pretty.

If a dwarf fruit tree, or berries were used on the side opposite the fence, that would screen off and create the "room" nicely (is that what you meant, Dale?). A cool place for Espalier. Some small growing, fragrant roses would be nice to enjoy there too.

Annuals are always great to fill in with, and great to give you a full look the first year. Can't wait to see your progress! Have fun!
Neal

Instead of a pump have you considered a french drain? It would run the water away from that area to where ever you want.

Unfortunately, raised beds wouldn't work right there because it would block what little flow/drainage that we do have on our very flat lot.

We've tried a number of different options to resolve the drainage problem, including french drains, and have seen slight improvements, but we're simply not there yet... ( here's a related thread: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/680081/ )

Have you seen the threads where people use chimney flue tiles? Same effect as a raised bed, and you could put almost anything in them. I'd vote with critter for the herbs. And you can get a meyer lemon that doesn't get very tall at all. I suppose you're too cold for lemon grass?

Wrightie, do you have space anywhere in your yard for a willow tree of some type or even pussywillows? You'd be surprised how much they can do to solve a standing water problem in a yard.

It doesn't have to be a huge weeping willow. The corkscrew willows are a lot smaller and some of the shrubby willows like pussywillows will also make a big difference.

Real Estate is at a premium in my little space, but I will look into the various willows, Hart. I appreciate the suggestion. I'm not (yet) familiar with corkscrew willows, but I'm intrigued by the name; and I've always had a fondness for pussywillows going back to my childhood.

Wrightie, please Dmail me if you decide you'd like to try a corkscrew willow... I'm planning to root some cuttings this spring... granted, it's a few years from cutting to sapling to tree.

I've heard willows can cause problems with their roots, though, so I'm not really sure about putting them right against your new patio...

If you did long planter boxes (on feet) rather than narrow raised beds, you might be able to trench along those 8 inches along the outer edges of the patio (maybe with a little gravel in the trench)... of course, I have no idea if you have somewhere for such a trench to drain, but it's a thought!

Thank you for the ideas!

Critter, I need to do my homework on the corkscrew, but will definitely contact you if I go that route. Also, I would not plant those near the patio, but rather, put in an "island" bed in the area of the lawn that gets the most standing water. Not sure if that's what I really want to do or not. My first choice would be to 'blink' and make the drainage problem go away -- is that too much to ask? I've seen that done on t.v. before...

I could do that for you, but I'm not going to be in MD. Sorry. ;p

What about a limited "rain garden"? I've seen them mentioned; if I can find a thread or a link, I'll post it.

Edited to say I just put in a weeping willow (front yard, plenty of space) and it's growing pretty fast. They do love water. And my sweetie lost one to a hurricane and has had standing water problems ever since.

This message was edited Mar 22, 2007 10:50 AM

LOL

Actually, if I were to do an island bed, it would be planted as a 'rain garden.' It was mentioned in the thread that I linked to, above. I would want to keep the size of the plants to a minimum there, also the area gets part sun at best.

Most willows grow very fast. The corkscrew willow I have has grown a lot slower than a weeping willow, though. If you have a small area, look into some of the fancier pussywillows. They're very pretty too. A weeping willow would be way too large for a townhouse lot.

The main problem with willow trees is making sure they aren't close to any water or sewer lines because they will root right into the pipe. If this is your backyard, it's unlikely there are any water or sewer lines back there. Most of those are in the front running from the main municipal water or sewer lines under the street to your house.

No water and sewer lines out there to worry about. This is more of an urban sized single family lot, not townhouse. I'm blanking on the dimensions out back, but suffice to say approx. 60 ft. by 60 ft. with three mature Oak trees in that area (@ least 70 ft. tall each). A weeping willow is out of the question due to sheer size, not to mention sun blocking tendencies.

I am all about perennials, annuals, vines and small shrubs out there - the backyard will be landscaped as a modern cottage garden with mixed perennial beds (including fruit & veg) around the perimeter and some turf in the center. I'll add photos as things progress.

Until I sort out the drainage, I will add temporary plants around the smaller of the two patios - will likely go with annuals this year just to have instant color and to create an elegant border.

Yes, eat the elephant one bite at a time...

My daughter's home has a similar area they created .It is entered beside a wisteria ,which has a beautiful scent with its Springtime flowers .They have decorative stones and mosses which give a cool effect with little maintenance .You might like to have a several pots of annuals for colour ,and do make use of your lovely wooden fence by hanging pots and baskets from it for vertical interest .
Emelle

I've posted some of the work-in-progress pic's on another thread: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/680826/

Emelle, that's a pretty design, right down to the puppy. Thanks. Yes, I have numerous iron hooks on the fence for hanging baskets and also have several vines (clematis, hardy kiwi, grape, blackberry, honeysuckle and hydrangea on the fences). Speaking of eating the elephant one bite at a time, most all of the work on the backyard was installed last year, so it is young young young. I cannot wait to fast forward a few years.

A recent update -they decided to put concrete around the circle and press stones into it ,also mosaic here and there .
Emelle

Emelle, I love the expansive feel that concrete surround gives to the patio, especially with those stones radiating outware... and now they have a great place to set a few pots without interrupting the formal circle of the patio focal point.

Speaking of pots, Wrightie, Have you thought about some pots?

You need to go up, that's for sure....some vines that are hardy and have continual bloom would be ideal, esp if you can put some stainless steel or copper nails in the fence and be able to attach the vines. I could give you a list of hardy vines, but you have a lot bigger choice than what I would suggest (z 7 vs my Z5).

At least one Clematis, tho. They go with anything.

Suzy

LOL, IIloquin, look up to my last post, above. I have zillions of pots, too, but the picture that I provided was from a very cold and stark March. I will start filling and replacing pots once things calm down with the freezing weather here. This has been our coldest winter in several years.

D-uh, I see now; I meant pots on the ground since you said it was so wet. I also didn't see where you already had all those vines...what was I thinking?

Okay, so you need annuals around the perimeter that won't take over the patio -- something that looks lush. What about perennial primroses (like Primula japonica)? LOL Not what you wanted, but they could be interspersed with the annuals. They'd bloom about now, I imagine, in DC. It would extend the season a little bit and they can take the extra water. If it gets bone dry in summer, I am pretty sure they just go dormant and they don't die. I have another kind (the kind you find now at the grocery P. aurical, I think -- vibrant colors with a bright yellow eye) and they go dormant in a hot dry summer and reappear the following spring.

Impatiens -- either the regular ones or the New Guinea ones -- like the water. So do Calla Lilies, and they should be hardy there. Once again, not annuals, sorry. I think that Mimulus likes the water, at least they say never let it dry out, but it requires the water and also shade. Profusion Zinnias might be a good choice. The thing is, they are like plastic flowers -- very static. The same flowers stay open for like a month. On the other hand, they bloom all summer and then some! No matter which color you choose, make sure you like the color of the flowers when they open and the colro after they fade! I bought Apricot Profusion last year and the newly opened flowers were so pretty but the old ones are the color of chamois...very yellowy-beige. I had them in a place with so-so drainage and they were very happy. There is a fantastic picture of them in a rainbow of colors one of the very first posts of the forum by Lincolnitess. The picture is visible form the main menu and is easy to find.

I'm afraid I am not much help -- I use Impatiens almost exclusively because they self-sow and I am both lazy & cheap! -- but I'd really like to see what you do with your space, so be sure to take pictures as the season progresses!

Suzy

Grapes or other vines for the fence? from plantfiles--

lol, I designed that fence specifically so that I could grow vines on it. You cannot see them in the picture, but it currently has growing on it four types of clematis (including one evergreen type), a hardy kiwi, a thornless blackberry, and a concord grape.

I'm leaning toward bordering the patio with either coleus or impatiens - all I know is that I want continuous color in low to medium heights as I don't want them to fight with the grapevine or honeysuckle on the fences.

When the drainage problem is resolved, I'm hoping to plant an herb border there...

I agree about pots, but what I mean is pots on the ground (or on a stand or a pile of bricks or something). I use a lot of pots on my patio. I find I can vary heights by piling things under them. I have some huge pots (which I usually fill mostly with styrofoam) and some tiny pots. You can also audition perennials that way. Put them in a pot, observe them for a year or so, then put them in the ground after you're convinced you really like them. Last year I did a lot of mixed containers (a thrilller, a spiller and a filler) but this year I'm seeing plants displayed singly in containers and I like that look, too. I have a metal plant stand like this
http://www.gardeners.com/Plant-Terrace-Set/default/StandardCatalog.PotsPlanters_Accessories.18722.cpd
except I got in on eBay for a lot less and mine is crammed with plants.

hope this helps a little...

xxx, Carrie

Carrie, thanks for your ideas. I'm with you on the pots. Here is a shot that I took today of some of my pots which are waiting to be planted and rearranged into more attractive groupings. I have several others that are out of view. Winter has held on longer than usual this year, so we're getting a late start this year.

The bistro patio is only 9' x 9', so I might not go too crazy on containers in that space, but we'll see how things develop. I like to experiment and move things around a lot to fit my moods (yes, I'm a moody Virgo). = )

It was far too beautiful a day today to not get my hands dirty, so I picked up some pansies while I was out and stuck them in for a temporary bit of instant gratification... unfortunately, I should have gotten 3 or 4 times the amount of flowers than I did, but here is how the little patio looks right now.

The honeysuckle on the back fence is beginning to leaf out, but the grapevine on the left side of photo is still dormant (and invisible).

Oh, wrightie, I love your collection of blue pots! That's my favorite color, too. I did the same thing with pansies! (But I haven't decided what to do with them yet...)

Anyway, containers is my vote. I lost a lot of terra cotta and thin ceramic stuff (from garage sales so I don't mind) to freezing and raining and freezing this winter. Where do you keep your pots during winter?

xxxx, Carrie

Thanks, Carrie. As someone born and raised in upstate NY, I believe that you will want to slap me for this, but I left the containers right there on the patio. I never would have tried that in NYS, but in spite of some relatively cold days this year, I felt that I could take the chance in leaving them out. In hind site, that was pretty dumb of me. Several of my terracotta pots have crumbled in past winters; I've been migrating toward glazed pots, particularly shades of blue or green.

I'll definitely put groups of containers in the corners of the bistro - perhaps elephant ears & friends.

I read recently (maybe in the container forum?) that it's not just the cold that does in ceramic pots, it's the combination of cold & wet (makes sense). Somebody said they empty their container, flip them, stack them, and cover them with a plastic tarp... and they make it through the winter just fine. I'd still bring in any I especially prized!

How about an update????

Hi Brigid,

Well, since you asked... I just went out and snapped this picture for you. It's pretty bleak looking out there still, I'm afraid. Although we had temp's near 80 the past two days, they are calling for a chance of SNOW by the end of the week. What a nutty Winter & Spring this has become... You can get a sense of our drainage problems by noting the standing water in the yard because we had major rainstorms overnight.

Other than pansies, there isn't much in the way of annuals here that I can stick in the ground yet. That should change in about two weeks as our last frost typically comes in mid-April.

The netting in the back is where I have started peas and will grow runner beans. On the teepees behind that will be Italian pole beans. I have planted beets, and I sowed spinach and leaf lettuce. I also turned my two compost piles. On Friday, I have a big load of leaf mould being delivered. I'll use that to mulch all of the beds in the picture. They currently are very light in color because I spread a layer of hardwood shavings over the beds (don't yell at me, Pagan, I promise to put down quality organic matter over the top).

The straw in the lawn, as you might have guessed, is where I overseeded the turf. I have not planted anything in my containers yet, but will do within the next couple weeks. Grass has creeped into my beds, so I need to go through and tidy them up, then give the beds a crisp clean edge again. I hope to accomplish that this coming weekend.

So, I'm afraid that this is a bit like watching paint dry. In a month's time, I expect things to look far more interesting. The honeysuckle and blackberry have just started to leaf out. The grapevine is now budding, but things still look barren for the time being. I have monarda planted at the right front side of the patio and that is also beginning to awaken ...at least things are greening up and the daffodils are blooming!

I do promise you that I will get that patio looking inviting as we progress into the season. Hooray for Spring.

This message was edited Apr 4, 2007 2:11 PM

I see your water drainage problem now. Have you considered adding a pebbled creek bed just in front of that flower bed with stones for edging? You could then add some bog plants that don't mind wet feet. Lobelia (cardinal flower), chelone lyonii (turtlehead), asclepias incarnata (milkweed), Louisiana iris, mimulus ringens (monkey flower). Most of these will grow in both wet/dry conditions. Just a thought.

Thanks, Daltri. I'll certainly consider that option. I appreciate the plant list as well.

I for one can see the progress. This weather has been crazy, though, hasn't it? It was in the 80s here yesterday, and I finally wore a spring/summer skirt to work instead of jeans, and when I went out to lunch it was 58! Geez! Can't complain, though, when others are seeing 20s!

I think it's going to look wonderful. Keep taking pictures!

Hi. I'm coming in very late on this thread, but you talked a lot about willows. there are some very dwarf shrub Japanese willows that might not mind the wet by your patio.

this one, Salix integra Flamingo, is only supposed to get 2'x2', so I think you could plant in your space

http://www.parkseed.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDisplay?storeId=10101&catalogId=10101&langId=-1&mainPage=prod2working&ItemId=49906&PrevMainPage=textsearchresults&scChannel=Text%20Search&SearchText=willow&OfferCode=T1H

I must say, you do make the most of your space, girlfriend.

I didn't read enough to figure out if you have come to a conclusion about what you wanted to put around your patio, my suggestion would be some of the shorter grasses - soft and fluffy with pink seed heads in the fall - like the Muhlenbergia "Regal Mist" - or something similar - I'm not sure of it's water tolerance.