WS Poppies & transplant problems

Hurray! (I think.)

I've been grumbling for weeks that none of my WS Penstemon did anything, and moved them from the shady porch to the deck where sun hits them part of the day. (It still gets cool at night: down to 4o until just recently.)

Those tubs have been condensing on the inside for weeks, since I put them in the sun, despite vents in the filkm on top. I grumbled more, "yeah, now I'm probably steaming them."

I checked again earlier today. My eyes may be playing tricks, or those teeny, teeny, teeny TINY things might be single-celled algae.

But I THINK I have quite a few VERY SMALL Penstemon sprouts! They seemed smaller than pinheads: more like pinpoints.

I think I'll cut the vents wider, even though that will let in more rain. But my belief is that seedlings don't like 100% humidity, even if they are tiny.

I guess Penstemon are just really slow and really small ... and I guess they need warmth to germinate, after months of moist cold to break dormancy.

My eyes really popped open when I saw that sprinkling of microscopic green dots!

Here were my WS tubs when I started. Since then, a few sprouted but disappeared when I took their pots out of the tubs (slugs? cold? sproutnappers?) A few others are still huddled against the vemriculite, too small to see easily. The "teeny tiny Penstemon" are FAR too small to photograph. So this "before" WS shot looks much the same as my "after" WS ... so far.

(Meanwhile the indoor trays are doing well. As usual, once I start potting up, I have no room under lights for the overflow.)

Corey


This message was edited May 9, 2011 12:56 AM

Here's my lights: five compact flourescent bulbs, each "100 watt equivalent".

Corey

More indoor-started six-packs: Snapdragons & Lobelia.

Corey

More than half the salvia varieties I sowed in 128-cells (indoors) did sprout.
Several are thriving, and are probably ready to be potted up.

Corey

If I get any WS rewsults big enough to photogrpah,. I will post them!

Meanwhile, indoor Cosmos and Zinnias, potted up to 3.5" pots.

Corey

Some Columbines that sprouted indoors, maybe slowly ... yet were never stratified.

And more Snapdragons.

Corey

Your snaps are way ahead of mine. Didn't WS them. Have moved all my poppies indoors out of fear of losing them. Accidentally dumped one tray so I HOS'd them into pots to try to save them. Even getting one plant will make it worthwhile. They have such big seed pods. It is 9am and 46 degrees in the shade. I don't know if I should start putting the plants outdoors to hardy them up. what a chore. And if I don't watch them like a hawk, they die so fast when exposed to outdoors. What to do, what to do???

Sympathy! Put them out to freeze or be devoured by slugs, or let them languish indoors under not-enough-light?

I'm puzzled by why the orange California poppies have sprouted well (sown outdoors while night temps still went under 40) while NONE of the red ones (Mikado) sprouted. Its just a theory that the fast-draining soil under the red ones may have dried out while I wasn't watching.

And "peony poppies" didn't sprout at all either, in the fast-draining bed.

- -
I was delighted to find that my one indoor 6-pack of Violas (V. tricolor, 'Johnny Jump-Up') finally sprouted. I had given up and moved it to the back of a tray, out of the best light. Next time I looked back there, they were up, with a high germination rate, and pretty vigorous. So I've potted them up.

However, "high germination" means several to many plants per cell, and only 3 of the 6 cells were easy to divide. So I have 9 pots or Dixie cups with multiple pansies each.

I wonder what temperatures they like when planting out? I do want to grow them up a little bigger, so they will survive the first bite a slug takes out of them.

Plant Files says this about V. tricolor:
"From seed; stratify if sowing indoors"

I didn't, and they came up nicely. These were seeds received in trade.

Corey

I begin to think that much of what we read or even here here at DG is along the lines of suggestions. Some is fairly ironclad, don't plant peonies in waterlogged soil, sort of stuff. but the other? Stratify, don't cover with soil, etc. eh? I usually try what is suggested and then if that doesn't get it, try something else. You are obviously very successful in much of what you are doing, so you would be the one to emulate in my book. I spread seed of peony poppies, california poppies of a wide variety, Lauren's Grape poppies, etc and they all seem to come up just fine. My ground is fairly wet on top except for two small hillocks that look like the Gobi desert on top, but when I sink a hydrometer to test for moisture they are plenty moist. but seeds that lie on top don't get the benefit of that deeper moisture so I water. My landscaper believed that you only need 6-8 inches of dirt on any substrate to grow stuff. I found that out the hard way when I went to plant stuff like peonies (24" hole) and hit the rock, some of it 3+ inches in diameter, down about a foot, til I hit clay then sand. I was sooooooo angry. I have been digging up, sifting out rock and replacing with good soil for four years. This year I was going to have my pond edging fixed, add a garden, and build up the back of one of the little hillocks to get more horizontal surface and I stupidly called him because we have become friends (NEVER do business with a friend) and he started that same old 'you only need a few inches of dirt thing.' I called another, more expensive contractor, and will go with them. It will cost an arm and a leg but at least I will stand a chance of getting what I want.

I put my flats, pots, etc outdoors for a little cool morning sun and will haul in in about an hour. I can't plant them outside til May 30. But better the hauling and hardening up than losing them after all this work because they cannot adapt to outdoor sun, wind, and different humidity.

>> along the lines of suggestions. ... I usually try what is suggested and then if that doesn't get it, try something else.

That's my practice, also. I always wnat to UNDERSTAND what the reasons are, so I can apply the sugegstions to my own circurcumstances prudently. I suppose I have "analysis paralysis" because I don't like doing things I don't understand, even if people in other climates with other goals and different soil say "it works". Sometimes I think I care more about the understanding than the results!

>> You are obviously very successful in much of what you are doing, so you would be the one to emulate in my book.

Warning, warning! That's misleading ... more like, "very recently, I have been killing fewer seeds than I used to". I have done some trail and error, but I guess I haven't been stressing the 'error" part as much as I should!


>> I spread seed of peony poppies, california poppies of a wide variety, Lauren's Grape poppies, etc and they all seem to come up just fine. My ground is fairly wet on top

I guess that's why yours sprout well and most of mine didn't. And yet, I think I recall that poppoes like it dry and well-draining ... maybe that's only "after they are established".


>> My landscaper believed that you only need 6-8 inches of dirt on any substrate to grow stuff.

I know SOME things will grow in 8" of soil, but I bet other things need a lot more depth. Too bad your sand is UNDER your clay ... if it were over, silt, clay, organics and worms would rapidly spread the wealth down into the sand and turn it to soil.

Maybe this landscaper is taking a VERY long view. If you have 2-4" of soil, you can grow cover crops and their roots and cuttings will gradually deepen the root zone and enrich it ... over multiple years.

In my "good bed", I went crazy for two years creating drainage and good soil down 18-24", buying compost and topsoil. Elsewhere, I'm tryiong to get roots and worms to help me while I find a source of cheap compost or compostable stuff.

Since I have so little soil and so much clay, I try to get 8-10" of something somehwat soil-like in a raised bed the first year, and then try to improve its quality and depth over several years.

(As you probably know ...)

I fiugure that roots and nutirients and organics leach down from the good soil into the clay, and gradually improve the clay (with help from worms, frost heaves, and wet-dry-cycle heaves).

When wet soil or clay freezes, the ice expands and opens up tiny voids or pores.

When clay gets wet it expands, and shrinks as it dries. Assuming it doesn't get compacted into concrete, it should open up some voids and let roots in, or mix itself with surrounding compost or sand as it churns.

>> I have been digging up, sifting out rock and replacing with good soil for four years.

Me, too! Mostly, lately, I have been making poor soil more than buying good soil. I love that part of it: making soil. Doing the work of centuries of glaciers, sedimentaion, roots, worms and frost, all in a year or five. I probably enjoy cultivating the soil more than cultivating plants, but the plants make a good excuse.

I admire your gradual hardening off. I agree it is crucial. Even if they aren't killed by wind burn, sun burn, dehydration, chill or bugs, their growth can be halted or stunted by rapid changes. I have to do that before or after work, and on weekends.

Corey

I hear you on all counts. You are a true weekend-warrior/gardener. I also did that for years and no where near as successfully as you. I just sort of hit it the best I could. I was one of those 11-14 hour a day people, with 7 days work weeks a lot. It was not unheard of to go four weeks with no day off. Now, I have lots of bad habits to break like being slip-shod in following methodologies, researching and REMEMBERING the right fertilizers. I used to design/build things - databases, spreadsheets, processes. But I don't like to follow the daily grind process once it is developed. Boring.... I agree also that sometimes the process and rationale is much more interesting than the end result. lol. Story of my life. Someone at Schreiners Nursery in Oregon talked about putting stuff on top of the soil to enrich and loosen it up. I said how could I get it into the soil as I had stuff planted and couldn't cultivate. He said it would gradually work its way into the soil break it up and loosen it. Darned if I can remember what it was. If you are interested I can check my emails for that nursery and find what it was. it might help in breaking up your clay.

I look forward to seeing pictures of all your flowers and your garden as the summer progresses.

Mary

>> Now, I have lots of bad habits to break like being slip-shod in following methodologies,

I don't know about that ... sometimes "bad habits" can be effective. And your practice is how new methodogogies are invented! But true, usually when I break some gardening "rule", usually through being so busy that I do somehting later than it should have been done, the results are disapointing. Conventional wisdom is often right.

I used to be much more perfectionist at work, and always striving for doing things :"the best way". Then we had a project where we had to accomplish 5 years of work in three years, and I learned to "get 'er done" adequately, but as fast as possible.

So now, in the garden, I try to do things "well enough", but fast. That means I got more done each year. Maybe when every spot with any sun has a raised bed, and the soil is all pretty good, I'll go back to my preferred fussy ways ... but that might be decades from now!

>> I said how could I get it into the soil as I had stuff planted and couldn't cultivate. He said it would gradually work its way into the soil break it up and loosen it.

I struggled with for years - it didn't make sense to me. But now I more or less believe that worms and other soil life do burrow and mix things. I've seen worms drilling holes through FAIRLY hard clay, and they seem to relish the border between compost and clay. And forst heaves things around, as deep as the soil freezes. It brings up rocks, so it must mix the soil! And clay does expand and contract as it dries and gets wet. And roots penetrate, then leave an empty channel behind that can fill with fine particles. And of course, as organics break down into colloidal particles and soluble chemicals, they can leach down or "elluviate" into the lower layers.

I would dismiss it all as "too slow", except that many "no-till" people rely on it completly, and seem to get good results. "Lasagna Method" people seem to grow in pure compost, until it creates soil through mixing with whatever is underneath. If it works, there must be SOME mechanism!

So now I till deeply in hard clay, until the soil looks half-decent, then focus on other beds while planning to top-dress with as much compost as I can afford. Eventually I'll go back and do another round of deep turning, which is one way to know how much you need the turning.

>> But I don't like to follow the daily grind process once it is developed. Boring...

I'm half-similar and half-different. I hate most things that just need to be done again and again - vacuuming, making the bed, mowing lawn. But SOME things become enjoyable rituals, like watering or screening soil.

Corey

I agree with pretty much all you said. I too have lifted heavy felt landscape cloth that had been covered with 1" rock for a few years and walked on to compress even further, and there were earthworms busily boring around on top and deep under. And the soil was pretty much clay mud. I tilled it, added manure and sphagnum and regular soil and it made a great bed. I was just working on my gardening diary (spreadsheet) and pond diary to try to get a history so I can do a better gardening plan next year; stuff that I should do in the fall, notes on what NOT to do in my second attempt on WS, a better schematic on what is planted where so I don't tromp someone's tender little sprout in the ground on my way to examine something else. The daily ritual of watering, screening, propping up, trimming off... those things I don't consider boring -- ever. They are rejuvenating for both the garden and me. I just want to do it better each year and that seems to require copious notes, dates, temps, etc. Then I have a reference for all winter to look back on to form a better plan. Oh, well. Have taken this poor thread very far away from its home. Hopefully haven't driven people away.

>> notes on what NOT to do

As if they even MAKE enough paper and ink for me to record all my discoveries in THAT arena!

>> The daily ritual of watering, screening, propping up, trimming off... those things I don't consider boring -- ever. They are rejuvenating for both the garden and me.

Well said.

>> I just want to do it better each year and that seems to require copious notes, dates, temps, etc.

Normally, for example at work, I do go very far in that direction of detailed notes and voluminious documetnation. Developing aviation software requires that! . However, for some reason, in the garden, I turn into an intuitive libertine with spontaneous whims of iron. It's a whole different side of my personality!

I still see the huge value of recording what i did (especially sowing dates and how-many-weeks-under-lights), to know what to do next year, or know whether I'm improving or deluding myself. But I can't motivate myself to do much more than record what is sowed where (and when).

(Thread? Topic?)

The extra California Poppy "Mikado" seeds I scattered a week or two ago have still not sprouted. I hope they don't need startification, because nights have only gone down to 45-48 lately.

My WS Penstemon sprouts have gone from very fine pin-points of green to fine green pin-points. I'm leaving them in the humid tubs for now! This morning I picked several slugs off the plastic film on top - oddly, they did not fiogure out how to squeeze through the slits.

Tomorrow: refresh the beer saucers!

Corey

My heavens! You already have slugs. Yuk. I am sure ours are frozen below ground yet. I doubt I could get a shovel more than 6" before hitting frost. I don't know if my Penstemons survived yet, but have moved them to a place that hopefully is more hospitable. The last of my (paltry) wintersown poppies, sweet peas, and godetia are in pots in the garage, joining the other guys in their daily trek to the deck and back. Hopefully only have to do this for a week or so and then they are on their own. Survival of the fittest.

>> You already have slugs. Yuk. I am sure ours are frozen below ground yet.

We had an early thaw ages ago, like in February, and they exploded. I put out a lot of beer saucers and caught hundreds. Then the cold returend, and I had frozen slugcicles!

Now that it has warmed up "for real" (not just "above 32", but above 40 at night) the slugs are coming back. So I dusted some iron suphate slug bait INSIDE my WS tubs and around one one surviving Delphinium, which for the first time looks more like a plant than a machine-gun-target.

Time for more beer!

Now that I think about it, that's a good motto any time.

Corey

It's beer-thirty here!! Well, wine maybe. "machine-gun target??" Hmmm, I must visualize that, while I embibe.

I often wonder how slugs get their chewing parts into the middle of a leaf, so as to leave HOLES, not notches.

I used to think "How could give those rotten, crummy slugs BEER?!?" I solved that by buying the cheapest, worst 'malt beverage' I could find. I'm not even tempted to drink it myself as long as I have sturdy IPAs and ales in stock. (But I might try sugar-water and yeast this summer.)

Colorado State University Entomology professor Whitney Cranshaw had his students do a comparative study to determine which variety of beer their slugs liked best. The cheapest malt-beverage-beer-substitute seemed to be their favorite: Kingsbury Malt Beverage. They preferred it 19:1 over tap water!

See the bottom of this web page:
http://www.ghorganics.com/page13.html

Corey

thanks for the url. I have printed it. Should provide some entertainment value trying different deterrents. I see they didn't try any dark beer or stuff like Pete's Wicket Red or McTarnahans. I think I got that Kinsbury stuff once. Gross... but figured the slugs deserved it. I think I like the idea of laying boards around the area. And may try copper collars on my dahlias.

"In the Pacific Northwest they have banana slugs which are bright yellow, grow to 8 inches with some up to 18 inches."

Have you seen any of these awful sounding creatures. that is really purely gross...

I haven't seen the banana slugs, just big grey things. Either last year was their population explosion and this year many moved South, or my beer saucers are helping a lot.

Or the lingering, cold spring has delayed this year's boom.

But I see about 1/10th as many this year as last year.

I guess I can't talk about a lingering, cold spring to someone from Alaska!

Corey

uh, nope... the sky is clear but with a stiff wind and 40F, it nips a little. but overall, I think it is better than last year. Stuff is growing and no signs of slugs yet. I have time to prepare my defenses.