Rose vs. Chocolate

Okay, I'm a bit stymied...

I grew some of the so called 'Chocolate Silk' a few years back, and the vines turned out to have green leaves, and the flowers were a deep rosy brown, moderately ruffled, with a white picotee edge, so I assumed mine were 'Chocolate' due to the lack of variegation. I've looked at other photos submitted to the PF's, and between what is being called 'Chocolate' and 'Chocolate Silk' seems to be two different flowers, but both are being listed under each name. Some are picoteed, some are not. Some have variegated leaves, some do not. Some are a deeper pink, some a deeper brown. Some appear to have a large lighter throat, others a smaller white eye. In short, there's a lot of inconsistencies and the two are not being differentiated. What is the actual set standard for what is to be considered 'Chocolate' and/or 'Chocolate Silk'?

Also...

I have a clipping of a catalog description for 'Rose Silk' that was sent to me with some seeds in a trade:

"Large, 3 1/2 inch flowers have a delicate...(word chopped off)...featuring an usual milk-chocolate rose with white edging...with unusual varigated leaves...

My questions are: Is there an actual difference between 'Chocolate Silk' and 'Rose Silk', and if so, is the rose pinker? If not, is what is being called 'Chocolate Silk' in reality 'Rose Silk' and the unvariegated green vine the actual 'Chocolate Silk'? Is there a natural variation between the chocolates with and without the picotee edging, or are they two different strains?

And who has some seed for the pinker version? I'd love to trade for some... I'm not a big fan of chocolates--unless I can eat them. ;-)

Stacey

Hey Stacey - the chocolate and rose situation is somewhat complicated...

The confusion has arisen due to the fact that different companies in Japan have offered different strains using the same company marketing name...different marketers have used different names,gardeners have 'adopted' different names,the plants filial generations threw different looking plants and that there are about 20 various chocolate and rose colored strains catalogued by Kyushu University...some of the strains catalogued by Kyushu are being grown by Westerners and others have apparently not yet seen western shores...

It seems like a thread devoted to categorizing the different features of the various chocolates and roses is definitely in order...

I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone who has relatively stable forms of chocolates and roses to see if we can all ascertain the differences and apply some relatively reasonable descriptors to what's been made available and being grown out here...some updates and revisions of the PlantFiles will probably be in order...

TTY,...

Ron

Oy! The situation is more confusing than I imagined, then. 20 different strains?! I wonder how many of those I may have in my possession then, considering I've gotten seeds for 'Rose Silk' from at least 4 different sources, 'Chocolate' from at least two, and 'Chocolate Silk' from two others. It's enough to make my head hurt!

I've been trying to learn as much as I can about the chocolates as a color, because I happen to like it and it's related colors (plums/ mauves and grays/slates) very much. These colors are created by a series of modifier genes applied singly or in combination to the basic blue, magenta and purple colors. The primary genes involved are the dusky (dy), duskish-1 (dk-1), duskish-2 (dk-2) and dingy (di). The software translators that I have used often use terms like "astringent" to describe these colors. Our chocolate is often referred to as "persimon brown" or "group ten"...which may be a show classification, I'm not sure.

Like Ron says, Kyushu University has many strains that show the chocolate color....not the chocolate name. These strains typically have the dusky (dy) gene applied to one of the red colors. Because these numbered strains are primarily used in genetic research, they are maintained very carefully and have known primary genetic makeups. Remember, we all create strains also when we save seed from a stray ( or intentional!) cross that catches our eye....and we repeat this selection each year. If we share seed early in this process, the recipient probably selects a little differently than we do, and thus creates a slightly different strain from the one we've created.

As to what is a true "Rose Silk", "Chocolate" or "Chocolate Silk"...I think it will be very difficult to define, for the reasons Ron gives...common marketing names applied to differently developed lines by the seed companies. So far, I've only grown what I received as a "Rose Silk", http://davesgarden.com/journal/j/viewentry/105701/, and it was very close to the flower of the recent sister thread. Depending upon the lighting, it could look somewhat rose or a more brownish tone. It also was very close in color to the ChaChaMaru that I grew.

Arlan

The one I grew definitely had the 'rosy' undertone to it when not in direct sunlight, but when the sun hit it, due to the reflective properties, the color would present itself as a milk-chocolate to the same with an orangy reflective overtone.

I started a seed of what I received as a varigated 'Rose Silk' today, so it'll be interesting to see what it looks like when it blooms. I also compared the seeds from each sample I have. Some of the seeds have the characteristic brown strip on the ridge that denotes variegation, but one sample is entirely black seeds, and the other seems to be uniformly brown. I planted one of the two that I know will be varigated, and I suppose I'll have to plant a certain percentage of the other two samples to get an accurate representation of what they contain, since planting only one seed leaves the door open to possible variation with each sample. I could end up sprouting the only oddball in the bunch, knowing my luck! I also have a sample from Emma, but it's one from a couple of years back, so we're trying to figure out which one of hers it was.

My Chachamaru came out kind of a rusty pink color, if I remember correctly. I was sadly neglecting my vines at the time, and didn't see it bloom but a couple of times. The vine did rather poorly compared to most of the others I grew.

Mine looks just like your pic Arlan but mines Var. tho poorly

I grew Chocolate several years ago from seed I purchased from T&M. It was a mauve/chocolate colored flower with white throat. I think it had solid green leaves although my (grainy) photo shows some leaves with variegation. I think those leaves are from another JP type I was growing in the same pot.

I have also grown Rose Silk (purchased from Park) which has a white picotee edge & vareigated leaves---photo can be found at this link:

http://davesgarden.com/contest/2003/image.php?rid=558

Then there is the other "Chocolate" from Livingston Seeds which has solid green leaves and a white picotee edge (see post after this one)

After growing all three I would have to say they are all different. IMHO

Sandy

Here's Livingston's Chocolate MG....

I'm not sure who I got the seeds for mine from, since they were gotten in a trade back in 02-03. These didn't have complete picotees as a rule, but did have green leaves. They got up to about 4 1/2 in. across and stayed open really well. Note how they have a more orangy color to them.

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/64889/

This message was edited Jan 6, 2007 5:12 PM

Stacey,
This one looks much like seeds I grew a couple of years ago
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/64889/

I have grown SO many different strains that it made my head spin. From Orange to Browns to Rose, to Pinks, Mauves and even Plum colors. I have had them with a very definite Darker Star. Picotee Edges very slight or very thick. MANY blooms were even Tie-Dye and some were flecked. Some were also HUGE 7.5" Blooms.

I think I ended up with so many different kinds because I was determined to find the SOLID Chocolate, which I did, and it is still growing True now year #4. I call it SOLID Chocolate Silk, but then maybe it is just supposed to be called SOLID Chocolate ???
I call this one Solid Chocolate Silk because it does have a great silkyness.
Leaves are tri-lobed and solid green with no variegation.
Blooms VERY prolifically every year and one of my favorites.

Emma

Here are two blooms from 3-years ago that had HUGE Blooms, but look at the difference in the colors and they are growing on the same vine. These blooms do have slight Tie Dye Streaks.

Emma

So far,.so Good(!)...

Emma - I'm thinking that the 2 blooms just above are probably the same color...the lower bloom seemingly lighter as the light from the window is making it appear lighter and more translucent than the bloom above it with no backlight shining directly through it...

If you get a chance,Emma could you try to post the range of different colored chocolate and rose blooms that you've gotten along with leaf information(?)...that would be very helpful to the 'cause'...

NIce material(!)...

Thanks(!)...

TTY,...

Ron


P.S. - I think something as close to an accurate side-by-side feature comparison is the best we are going to be able to do with these...along with a comparison to the strains offered by Kyushu...

Yes, Ron...
Let me dig out some of my photos tomorrow and post as many as I can find.

Emma

My photo posting may be slow-going. Hopefully I have them all saved before my Computer Crash.
Most I grew in 2003.

These first photos are of Solid Chocolate Silk in 2004

Solid Chocolate Silk

Solid Chocolate Silk 2

Solid Chocolate Silk 3

Rose Silk with Slight Picotee Edge Variegated Foliage

Another Rose Silk with Chocolate hue that is 'almost' solid. Just a touch of white at a part of the edge. If I remember, these Blooms did not have Variegated Foliage. You can see that in bottom left. The Variegated in the photo is from another MG.

Another Rose Silk Save Vine as above with Very Slight Picotee. Non-Variegated Leaves

Again, the same vine. This one appears to be a Solid Bloom, however, this is not from my other Solid Chocolate Silk vines.

Still the same vine with a bit more White Picotee

Same vine again.
BTW these Rose Silk blooms are all on one single vine

Rose Silk with a Definite Darker Star Pattern - Again the same vine as all of the Rose Silks above

Rose Silk with a little Frost on the Tips of Petals - Same Vine again....

Still the same vine

Same vine - Color looks lighter, but could be lighting

Thanks for the photos, Emma. I am going to grow Rose and Chocolate varieties for the first time this summer and now I'll know what to expect!

Pale Rose-Pink MUTATION.
Darker coloration in the Center of the Bloom
Again from the same vine
I distinctly remember this very bloom too. SO PRETTY!

Close up of same Bloom last posted.
As you can see, this particular vine threw all kinds of different patterns, but they were all very 'quiet' blooms.

Next Vine I suppose would also be called 'Rose Silk'
Variegated Leaves
Blooms larger than posted above and are more 'Ruffled' with a wider Picotee Edge

Hi Beth,
Oh, I have LOTS more to post.
Wait until you see some of the blooms that I got the year I grew all of these.
I'm glad Ron is going to give us his input on what still remains a 'Mystery'.
I love all that I've ever grown and they still remain one of my very favorite MG's.

Emma


Another Rose Silk same vine as above photo

One more Same Vine

I still marvel at the technology! You can grow them, capture the bloom digitally, and have it forever!

Not sure which vine this one came from, but pretty sure it did not have Variegated Leaves.
This Bloom has more of a Margined Picotee Edge

Yes, amazing isn't it.
With as many that I grow - this is the ONLY real way I get to enjoy them.
Which means I take HUNDREDS of photos every year.
Sometimes that many in one day

The next group of photos are from several vines growing together. All Variegated leaves.

Looks like this one has an Orange Tone

Ron will like this one

Looks like some of the blooms that I posted that had non-variegated leaves.
These have Variegated Leaves