organic meat and produce

Next year I plan to plant garlic as sentries all around my veggie patch. I also plan to interplant with marigolds.

This may sound harsh, but some people I think are just plain lazy. It would take a little research and thought to figure out a way of protecting your flowers and vegetables without resorting to poison, but I guess it's easy just to grab an aerosol can and start spraying.

I think you are right, WH. I think the best thing I learned from the book Gardening for the Future.... was how to change my own mind set. I learned to see in a new way. And it IS hard. But I've come to believe that these chemicals and poisons are the wolf in sheep's clothing. Anyone can stick a plant in the ground and water with Miracle Gro. The more I garden organically, the more I see what real gardening is. My garden is filled with earthworms, birds and animals.You go out in my garden now and everything is just trembling, bursting forth. It is really alive.

When my lilac had borer holes in it, I was really upset, because lilacs to me are a remembrance of my mother, who loved them. I did research on the insect, and discovered that there were almost no alternatives to pesticides. Then I spoke to a friend of mine. He said " Wendy, It's just a lilac! They are all over the place. If it makes it, great. If it doesn't, so what?" It shocked me out of my feelings of helplessness. I decided to cut out the stem that is infested this fall and give it to the trash men immediately. The grubs will be inside the branch. I haven't given up, just have to think a little harder about how to deal with it.

You got it right, it really IS about mindset.

Future generations may not have any mind to set if chemical use keeps up.

Ivy,

do you use Neem oil?

I meant to get some this year, but I haven't done it. I AM actually a lazy gardener......Procrastination is my middle name.

Butting in -- just found my entire fall garden squash destroyed by borers. Is there a way to PREVENT their establishing themselves, just in case I can find more squash seeds and plant again? My big plan is to plant ornamental gourds in the spring, and I really don't want them to fall to the borers, too. I plan to get a few chickens, but that's not for a few months yet.

brigidlily- you can try a couple of things.

Some people put cut up nylons or tin foil around the stems of the plants to prevent the borers laying eggs or getting in. Wrap the stems from ground level and up 2 inches at least. Some people mound the earth up to the first pair of true leaves, but this doesn't always prevent them from laying eggs.

Soapy water sprayed every day on the stems will kill the eggs.You could use neem, pyrethrin, or rotenone, but you have to be really careful with these because they will kill your pollinators. Make sure you take any plants that are from this year and dispose of them.

To create a more resistant plant, you can take some of the stems and bury them at intervals so they root in different places. That way, if you do get a borer in one section, you can cut that stem out and still have a healthy plant.

I read in one of my books that planting icicle radishes around your squash plants deters squash bugs, as do nasturtiums. Let the radishes stay in the ground and go to seed. I am not sure whether these will repel borers though.

If you do get lucky enough to find a borer before it has killed your vine, you can take a wire or toothpick and insert it into the stem to impale the little creatures before they do more damage. Or carefully slit the stem lengthwise and dig them out.

Hmmm. Maybe I can still save one or two if the damage isn't extensive. It's one little critter it won't hurt my feelings to impale. If I can get hold of some nasturtium seeds I'll plant those around them as well. Thanks for the tips, Ivy1!

Anytime. Hope it helps.

Ivy1 you said you have cicadas ? my first yr i lived here in Ohio we had the ciccada invasion!!!! millions of them swarming , yuk. wish i ownded a car wash at that time LOL i would peel them off my car hood. uuhhg very gross.
i will be looking in on those sites you gave.:)
best
sue

When I was akid in Oklahoma, we would get tons of cicadas, but here there are a lot fewer. I would never say just wait it out if you have a really horrible problem with them! Here, I would find about 7 every year. Definitely NOT an invasion. They are awful if you are driving, I recall. They are so crunchy! same with grasshoppers- the ones here are abo ut a tthird of the size of the ones in the midwest and south.

Zeppy just said on another thread that the above preventions for squash borers diid not work for her. She said apumpkin underplanted with clover was the only one to escape squash borers.

Back to the topic of shopping for groceries, I found that organic milk is soooo much better than the other kind. I bought some 2 weeks ago and it lasted till yesterday, when my daughter finished the carton. I can't remember the last time I actually emptied a bottle of milk before it went bad. Organic tastes and smells way better too.

I think I am getting the benefits of organics already. I have lost over ten pounds since I started this quest for decent food. I don't know if it has to do with the food itself, or if I am just eating healthier. It was definitely an unexpected outcome.

Ivy, organic food will have more nutrients in it, so you will eat less over time to feed your body. The large agribusiness chemical farms produce a cosmetically pretty but nutrient deficient crop of empty calories. People who eat this type of food have starving cells that trigger the desire for more food in an effort to get some nourishment and then eat more empty calories to appease the hunger.

You may find this link interesting:
http://crossroads.ws/brixbook/BBook.htm

Wow! I just read about Brix yesterday for the first time. Really interesting site. I will have to read further.

I think also that I am not pumping all the hormones into my system anymore. I was really sick a few weeks back- don't know if it was just a transition period, or if I got some E-coli or something. My MIL is from Germany and she is constantly leaving food outfor too long and then giving it to us. I don't know how to get out of these dinners......Every time I go over, I get sick.

Re: the borer problem-There is another thread to try called Squash and Pumpkin Borers. They are having lots of problems too, so maybe it will help.

WOW! What a great site. Thanks.

Ivy - we've had very good luck with Organic Valley milk. Some cartons are just fantastic. They are a cow friendly company. You may be interested in reading "The Omnivores Dilemma" and "The Way We Eat". We have a very hard time getting decent produce here. Most everything is conventially farmed and trucked out from California. Much is shrink wrapped in plastic. Even most of the organic produce is shipped. So nothing is ripe and flavorful. Plus, its a very car based community with everything you might want spread way out over a swath of suburban sprawl. I have no time to grow veges - 3 kids, job etc. There are very very few local organic farms. I would move from here in a heartbeat if a good opportunity came up in a healthier, more sustainable community.

Zeppy - if you're still there..what kind of instructions do you give your butcher when you get 1/2 a cow?
I want them to trim the fat away - all they can. I've been told they often don't want to do it. My first time getting this much boeuf!

I just say I want it really lean, and that I'm hoping we'll be able to do business in the future! My butcher tends to trim a lot, so it might be an individual thing, or simply b/c his clientele tends to be health-conscious.

But I don't eat a lot of beef, so I'm not an expert. Now, dealing w/ lots of raw milk? -- I'm your girl. Yoghurts, cheeses, butter... :)

Usually when you buy a half a cow you get a half of a cow. Bones for soup, fat for suet etc... If you don't get the bones etc... you can be pretty sure that you paid for them. Alot of the fat in beef is marbled in the meat. Gives it flavor and makes it juicy. If you like really lean beef look around for someone who is raising "grassfed beef". It is so lean the hamburger sticks to the pan. I get mine at Farmer's Market. This site might help you locate someone. http://www.localharvest.org/ We like the beef and lamb both and buy form 2 differant growers.

Thanks, in this case I'm friends with the fellow raising the steer but just talked to the butcher over the phone. I wish I knew a salmon farmer - lol - that would be great. But the beef was a good opportunity so I'm going to give it a try this time.

Ivy, you're right about organic milk. I initially bought it because it was The Right Thing To Do. Now I buy it because it tastes better than "factory" milk.

I still can't get over my craving for chocolate, though.

I wish we had a better cafeteria at work. The one we have is kind of a corporate greasy spoon. Unless they have baked chicken, which isn't too bad, or lasagna, I stick with grilled cheese sandwiches -- American yellow cheese on white bread with margerine.

Yes, I bring my lunch most of the time, but sometimes I don't have time to make one by the time I get home. And the building I work at is in a not too great neighborhood with drivebys and factories. There are no restaurants around at all, and it's not a place I really want to walk around in if I can avoid it.

we have organic meat right outside our backyard it called venison , we started hunting an raising our own. I relize many people can't do this , we are lucky enough to be able too.
When i read all about the reallity of beef in stores , i went veggie :) aaahhhh don't get me wrong , we still love our meat, :)
I wish i could find organic milk at our local grocery. We don't have enough room for a cow LOL
that is a great site you gave garden
best
sue

Barksy- first of all, I love your name! Second, I know what you mean about shipped organics and whether the livestock is bred in a decent, caring manner. It is a dilemma. Both of the books you listed are on my wish list, but I am going to the library today...so I will check for them. A few years ago I was behind a chicken truck driving on the highway and was sick to my stomach. Those poor birds were in open cages stacked at least 3 or 4 high- meaning the waste just came down on top of the ones on the bottom rows. They were terrified, with wind blowing on them and it was disgusting, disgusting. I didn't eat chicken for a long time after. Now I go for free range when I can.

Our National Public Radio station has a show called "Food Schmooze" every week. The farmer that I've been talking to about local grassfed meat got a rave review from the show's moderator. I spoke to him last week at the farmer's market and he is out of meat, but they will have some in a few weeks. He said that he and his wife will be on the show in a special hour-long interview. Hurray! Hope his prices don't go up, and I can finally get some meat!

I went to the grocery store last night and EVERYthing organic was on sale- we have Nature's Promise store brand organics here. I have no idea about the company, but I will look it up. I bought 4 types of organic meat, on sale. The pork chops were fantastic. I was able to buy so much food that I am wondering how we will eat it all! Tried Kashi GoLean- mmmmm. Even my five year old liked it. They make the best cheese puffs, a great substitute for cheetos, since my dear girl has a taste for those.

As far as I can tell, the only regular foods that don't have a ton of junk food or preservatives in them are cheese and rice. Any input on this would be welcome! And why do they not make organic cottage cheese? Maybe they do and we just don't get it here.

WH- I really feel for you, but maybe you could talk to the "greasy spoon" staff? Or start up your own healthy food coop or something. Unfortunately, sometimes it is up to us to inspire or create our own foodways. I am a shy person so I know how hard it is to step up and do this. I bet others at your work feel the same.

School is starting soon, and I am working up my courage to talk to them about healthier cafeteria food- they are getting rid of soda machines, but I think that is a long way off from what they should be doing.

We have organic cottage cheese, ricotta and hard cheeses available from under the Organic Valley brand, which is a coop of family farms. Sometimes you have to ask the dairy manager to order it for you.

Ivy, there is some good info on this site about organic food co-ops. I ran one for years.
http://www.coopdirectory.org/

Connecticut
Eastford Food Coop
P.O. Box 21
Eastford Connecticut 06242-
Phone: (860) 455-9072

Eastford Food Co-op Buying Club
119 Main Street
Hampton Connecticut 06247-

Back to Basics CT Buying Club
c/o 50 Coolidge Street
Manchester Connecticut 06040-
Phone: (860) 649-6535
kziedman@snet.net

Wholistic Food Options
231 Salem Turnpike
Norwich Connecticut 06360-
Phone: (860) 848-7199
jmacietny@aol.com

Willimantic Food Co-op
27 Meadow Street
Willimantic Connecticut 06226-
Phone: (860) 456-3611
FAX: (860) 423-7096
willifoodcoop@snet.net

Thanks so much, Darius! The closest one is Wholistic Food, in Norwich. It is 30 minutes from us.

I know the Willi-coop because it has been around since at least 1983, when I moved here. I suspect it goes back to the 60's or 70's. It has always been a fantastic place, just a little too far for us to make it worthwhile to join. We have only one car and it is difficult for me just to get to the farmer's market a few miles away.

The link that gave you that info is super! I hope it provides more info for everybody on this thread. Co-ops are a really great resource. Socialism in action!

Read more about Brix testing. Really cool!

I'm bidding on a Refractometer on ebay, but may get outbid. There's a guy in Spain that has a Zeiss one for under $50 Buy It Now and Zeiss always made good optics. I just want one soon as my grapes are ripening. The garden uses for Brix readings just make it more enticing.

I'll keep my fingers crossed taht you win it! I checked out ebay too, but don't know enough to buy one yet.

I looked up Nature's Promise foods- which seems to be a really good company, given our discussion recently. They are a Dutch company, and seem committed to making certified organic food in a humane manner.

I found a really scary article while I was googling- I probably ought not to post it, as it made me feel uncomfortable, but I want to throw it out there and see what you think:

http://www.chowhound.com/features/show/10005

Interesting article, but then some of us have known that stuff but not articulated it.

I sell jams, jellies, flavored vinegars, etc. and ALWAYS have a repeat customer list. Funny what the real stuff (and not so much sugar!) will do for the taste buds.

Boy, is that true! You don't need all the sugar or corn syrup or "natural" flavoring when the food content is good.

I just picked up our tiny local paper, and discovered a new Co-op is coming to New London, about ten minutes from here. It was the front page story. They just found a building and have already signed up 100 members. Are you guys psychic or something?

Whoooeee! Great for you!

Zeiss does make great optics. I'll have to keep my out for one. Now my DH will know what to get me for birthday or christmas. I don't care how "good" the artificial flavouring is. Give me Brix!

Maybe it's because I'm starting to eat more organic and natural foods. Maybe it's because I now have a garden and I spend a lot of time with real plants. But my patience and tolerance for what I get in the grocery stores is wearing thin. I look at the stuff sometimes and think that this isn't even food. It's a mockery of food, a pretense made up to look like food. And I have to wonder what our health would be like if we only ate real food.

Mind you, I don't want to turn back the clock or live in the Middle Ages or anything. I like technology, modern conveniences, and modern medicine. But I'm beginning to hanker for actual food. And I'm getting to the point where some of the processed stuff I eat is beginning to make me sick to my stomach.

I'm going to go eat the sushi I brought home from Whole Foods.

I agree, WH. I like having nicew things and being able to do what I want. But I wonder what my daughter's world will be like if we don't get on the ball. Seeing kids with so many health problems bothers me.

Went to the library and couldn't find any of the books I wanted. I hope that means others are reading them! Found "Allergic to the 20th Century" by Peter Radetsky, and "Good Food, Good Mood" by Gary Null. I could use a mood lifter sometimes! Also got a bunch of organic gardening books- one strikes me as being on topic- called "Gardening for Maximum Nutrition" by Jerry Minnich. Sounds very iteresting.

Got eleven (!) cucumbers from my garden yesterday, but still haven't gotten one decent tomato. All the rain and cold, with no hope till next week. Blaaah.

People are mystified because so many illnesses are becoming common, even though we supposedly have better food and better health care. Obesity, diabetes, thyroid problems, to name a few. I'd like someone to track the increase of some of these diseases and compare it to the increased use of pesticides, antibiotics, growth hormones, etc., in food.

Yeah, WH. I bet there are studies out there- I'd be very curious to see some real research. Also autism, allergies, cancer....you name it.

My father, the scientist, says because we are living longer, we have more incidence of these diseases- I agree somewhat, but that doesn't explain everything. He also thinks that genetics have a lot to do with it, but really, we are the first generation to have grown up with environmental factors such as pollution, pesticides, etc. Could it be that we are like the runoff in Rachel Carson's Silent Spring? Our bodies are storing greater and greater concentrations of these poisons, and thus we pass them down to our kids?

Ivy1

You said and I quote "...we are the first generation to have grown up with environmental factors such as pollution, pesticides, etc"

I don't know what generation you are from of course but I'd disagree to a degree with your statement.

Certainly in the UK since the beginning of the industrial revolution around 150 years ago we've been living with the effects of the factories belching out noxious fumes, increasingly less noxious as time goes on thankfully.

Farmers have been using pesticides for a long time too, 100 years ago, arsenic was regularly used as an extremely effective insecticide and who can forget DDT?

I think it's very easy to blame todays health problems on one or two factors like heavy industry and farming. They, no doubt, play a part but there are so many thing we don't do these days too, like walk miles a day to work/market etc, we don't scrub floors on our knees or wring out wet blankets, carry heavy loads etc. Many of us do semi to fully sedentary jobs. We're under a lot of stresses and pressures as were previous people but we are less and less linked to our families and friends. Medicine has improved so that yes we do live longer even with some pretty horrendous diseases and conditions, many of which can lea to further complicatons. Previously a lot of people would have died in childhood or just quickly with only the stronger and healthier surviving.

I think things are actually improving, we're far more aware of the environment than previous generations, we're certainly more concerned about our food, how it's produced and how we eat. I do feel we need to do more exercise, the human body needs it to keep in shape and healthy.

It's a multi faceted challenge.

Baa, I agree that sedentary lifestyles and stresses do contribute to ill health and that the industrial revolution of 150 years ago created polluted environments for prior generations AND I do think we have had an exponential increase in amount and types of chemical contaminants in the environment since WWII (DDT was first used in 1945) with a corresponding drop in the nutritional value of the foods available to us. Many people staying active with exercise via working out at the gym and sports in lieu of hard labour and still suffering the effects of the polluted food supply and environment.

In general though, I think you are living with a cleaner food supply (with a higher % of locally grown foods) in Europe than we are in the US. For example, the EU requires labeling of GMO ingredients in food products. We're still fighting to get that type of labeling here. I recently read an article that all long grain rice grown in the US has now been contaminated by the GMO rice from the Bayer field trials of several years ago. Some of the contamination is only 10%, but it's still there. Many other countries (like Japan) are watching the US population to see the effects of the GMO contamination since we have most of it. I know *I* have a much easier time digesting the food I eat when I'm in the EU on a business or family visit than I do in the US, even if I cook it the same way here.

There has been a huge increase in the types of chemical food additives allowed in foods and animal feeds since WWII as well. This is a worldwide problem. I have several of my grandmother's cookbooks that were published in the 1910's thru 30's. Inserted in these books are some food product wrappers and box cartons with more recipes written on the back side. If you read the ingredients on a box of cornbread or cake mix from the 1930's, you will see a simple listing. A similar product from the same companies in today's market is a paragraph of chemical ingredients many people can't even pronounce and probably wouldn't eat if they really knew what the ingredient is.

The fruits and vegetables produced by large chemical farming concerns have tested deficient in needed minerals and vitamins. There has been a steady, measured decline in the level of nutrients in foods grown since the chemical "green revolution".

Ivy, if you google around on the effects of fluoridated water you should be able to pull up several studies that show a direct correlation between fluoridated water supplies and hypothyroidism.

There are higher rates of breast cancer and childhood cancers in populations that live within 100 miles of a nuclear reactor. You may find the Tooth Fairy Project interesting:
http://www.radiation.org/

Obviously we are not going to clean up the planet, or our contaminated bodies, overnight. Consumer demand for truly organic meat, dairy and produce is a big step in the right direction. So is cultivating an awareness of products we use in our homes and gardens and their impact on our air quality and local water supplies.

Ok. I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for letting me rant! It's really inspiring to see DGers discussing these topics.

:D

Edited for spelling.



This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 2:06 PM

Baa, I do NOT live a sedentary lifestyle. Gardening, as we all know, is hard work. I also walk everywhere because I don't have a car, and I'm in training for my brown belt in kempo. I go to the dojo 3-4 times a week for classes plus working out at home. And I eat a better diet than most Americans. Yet I still have problems with weight, fatigue, low thyroid, allergies.... Even when I was on Weight Watchers (and no, I didn't cheat), I still couldn't lose the weight.

No, there's something else going on here.

Also packed somewhere in my garage is my Brita water filter, which I have to find.

I don't think Baa was accusing anyone specific of living a sedentary lifestyle, but saying that it's a chronic problem in industrialized nations around the world, and that this contributes in general to ill health.

Oh, I don't think she was accusing at all. I was just saying that a lot of people do live healthy lifestyles, and they still have problems where you'd think they wouldn't. So that's not the total explanation.

I've heard it said, and it's probably true, that children don't play the way they used to when we were kids. They're on the computer, or playing video games, instead of running around outside.

Yet when I was little, I'd spend a lot of my time in my room reading. And the "electronic babysitter" was used too frequently to keep us out of trouble.