Advice on planning a border?

I'm starting almost from scratch in this border in front of my house. I'd planted a bunch of things, but some of them died (a gaura, an anemone sylvestris, and one hardy geranium)--I chalk that up to my inexperience. The malva, phlox, and achillea survived but were leggy and not terribly inclined to bloom (despite every single nursery, magazine, and gardener saying the malva was a whopper all season). Some trusted sources told me it's probably because there's not enough sun. Too bad, because I just planted some (expensive) roses in each corner...I hope they make it. There's a euphorbia and a dianthus that are doing okay (I think).

So, I'm trying a different tactic, choosing plants that can stand some shade. The idea is to stay in the range of pinks and white, and here are some things I'm thinking of:

--for the back, for some height: lily 'Pink Perfection,' foxgloves, phytostegia virginiana 'Variegata,' and anemone 'Honorine Jobert' or 'Andrea Atkinson'
--to fill in, aquilegia Nora Barlow, Asiatic lilies in a variety of pinks and white, hardy geranium, maybe pink coreopsis or potentilla if they can handle some shade?
--along the front: aquilegia flabellata, hardy cyclamen, pink and white balloonflower, maybe pink lavender in the sunniest spots?

The big question is also what to put in the middle, between the two windows. I'm leaning towards a trellis with a climbing rose (maybe zephirine drouin, eden, or new dawn) and a clematis (probably clair de lune), if they don't mind a bit of filtered light. But how about 'Blushing knockout' rose? It's supposed to be virtually indestructible. Or a mountain laurel, but don't those have different soil requirements? I want some kind of height and structure in the middle.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and advice--I'm new at this, and don't want to keep having to re-plan every year!

I have a few oak-leaf hydrangeas in a place that gets some sun, but not too much, and I really love them. The leaves are great, but so are the flowers! The shrubs get to be big, and I've seen the leaves turn beautiful burgundy when the weather cools down in the fall. They also have exfoliating bark that gives them some interest in the winter.

Mountain Laurels are wonderful, but they seem to be slow growers, and some of mine are kinda leggy and not so beautiful. But they can take the low light. Another idea is to put in some Winterberry Hollies (Ilex verticillata). They're native to our part of the world, can take less-than-full sunlight and they look great (though not exciting) during the summer. The excitement comes whey they drop their leaves in the fall, and the stems are covered with bright red, beautiful berries on the female plants. Mine are still covered in berries! I bought the 'Winterberry Grove' from the White Flower Farm catalog about 4 years ago, and I consider it to be one of my more wise purchases! (Just remember that you'll need a male pollinator somewhere in your yard to ensure berries on the females - that's why I suggested the White option because you get a male and I think 3 females).

Those knockout roses are really great, but I don't know how they would do in part sun. I've seen some that just bloom all summer, but that was in full sun. New Dawn would swallow any but the most substantial trellis, I think. That's a crazy rose!

I envy you your blank-ish canvas! Have fun with the brainstorming! Your house is a wonderful background for most anything!

Jamie

Have you looked at other Shade type plants? Hosta, fern, helleborus, astilbe, bergenia, bleeding heart, plumbago, toad lily...

Hi Meg,

Your selections sound gorgeous. Just remember that roses need 4 hours of sunlight to survive and 6-8 to thrive, although Jackson and Perkins says 6 hours a day is enough to thrive and they should know IMHO. I was also thinking of Hosta, as Anitabryk2 mentioned above. It looks like you're going to have a ball!! Here's J&P's link directly to maintenance:
http://www.jacksonandperkins.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/base.d2w/report?html=how2rose.html

One other thing, I was watching Rebecca's Gardens this morning and they showed 4 easy to grow roses that bloom Spring to Fall (do look them up if you can because they were stunning and I may have to get one myself). One is a climber but, they were all so different and so pretty. Here is the link:
http://rg.console.net/articles/In_the_Garden/Plants___Flowers/267.html

Have fun!!

Megan

Meg, I'm with Megan. Roses need good sun to do well, Clematis too.
Mountain Laurel are slow growers with shalow roots that may not like frequent cultivation up close.
Here is a pic of my one and only Mountain Laurel taken last June. It's 30 years old.
Andy P

Duhhhh, I forgot the pic.

she's a beaut Andy

Thanks Anita.
Meg this is the East side of the house, with maybe 3 hours of sun.
What side is pictured above?
Andy P

It's basically South, though a little West. It gets a lot of sun (don't remember exactly how many hours), but there are two small trees planted in the yard, and a big tree out by the curb that casts some shadows onto the bed.

Meg, When I got started, the best thing I did was record the hours of sun, dappled shade and shade in each part of my yard. I mapped my yard (roughly to scale) and marked every few hours where the sun was. I did this every month through the growing season. It took some time, but then you have it forever (or until you move).
I think doing that, recognizing how much extra water plants need in their first year, and paying attention to my soil made the difference between throwing a lot of money into plants that die and a growing garden.
Hope that helps.
Dave

If you go with a climbing rose, Zepherine Druin would do okay in that light situation - or Gruss en Achen if you wanted white. How about a climbing hydrangea?

I read in one of the forums that they had problems with their Hydrangea vine.. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/565459/

stbgardener,
Zephirine Drouin is a great idea.
I grew up in West Hartford! Go, Morley Mustangs!!

Meg, if you're looking to plant a climbing rose, you can't beat 'Constance Spry'. We saw one of the gardening shows a few years back and they listed Constance as their all-time favorite. We started one in our gardens the next year and although it suffered the first year from the moles tunneling through the area and 'suspending' the plant in the soil - it has survived in an area with morning sun only and has absolutely gorgeous. Its arching habit is beautiful, but now we need to concentrate on encouraging it to grow up the tree it's planted in front of!

a close up of the flower

lovely blooms...it doesn't hurt the tree?

What is your soil like? It looks like the bed is right up against the house. Is this right? Have you lived there long? Are you a new gardener or have you been working at it for some time? I don't mean to ask so many questions, I just want to know more!

We found asphalt shingles buried in our yard, making life awful for plants. It was very hard to get them out of the soil and I still occasionally find some. I think they sort of poisoned our soil a bit. I also found out the hard way that sometimes the area right under the gutters or roofline is a difficult spot to plant in. Could be either too dry and compacted, or too wet, depending on how well the gutters work. The plants might have gotten leggy to avoid those conditions. I find that my plants don't like to be right up next to my house. I give them about an 18 inch to 2 foot leeway. Then you also have a little room to squeeze in behind the plants if you need to prune or get to your windows....

Good observation, Ivy1. You're right of course.
Against my foundation is dessert conditions, hot & dry. Near the gutter is wet.
Any tall thing you try to grow against a wall will lean out toward the light. When heavy weather comes along, they droop or fall over.
Andy P

rcn48,
"Constance Spry" is lovely! I actually started looking for it right after I read your post. I read somewhere that it's very heavy, and only the strongest of trellises, architectural supports, etc can hold it up. I'll have to find a strong enough thingy to let it grow on.

Ivy1,
Very astute questions. As you may have figured, I am pretty new at this. This will be my 3rd season gardening, all at this house (this is my first own house--actually, it was my husband's first--I just married him so I'd have somewhere to garden--just kidding). This particular bed was pretty well prepared before I lived here--the previous owner had gotten it all ready (or so it seems--the rest of the yard was grass, and this had edging around it and good soil and stuff), and planted a couple miniature shrub roses. That's a good point about under gutters and rooflines--I'll be sure not to plant anything right up against the house. I might have planted the other ones too far back.

I did want to put some tall plants in the back of the planting--if I put them slightly away from the house, as you suggest, do you think they'll do okay? They might need staking (lilies, foxglove, anemone...), but that's easy enough.

Dave,
That's a great idea about the light charts. I know I paid attention last year, but not methodically, and not on paper. I thought I'd remember. I was wrong. I wish now I'd written it down...I'll do it this year (and try not to lose the papers!). Did you draw a different map for every hour, or did you just overlap?
And why do people refer to you as "not Dave"?

Anita, hasn't hurt the tree yet - since we never got around to "forcing" it up the tree! LOL We were waiting for it to become established first, but it's looking so pretty just arching naturally in front of it we may just leave it to grow as "she" likes!

Meg, that's why we chose 'Constance Spry', because she is a vigorous grower - you're right she wouldn't take kindly to being grown over a spindly wooden trellis, would definitely need something more substantial - some of the heavier iron trellises that are available would probably work fine.

I found another picture taken a week later in June.

Meg, in looking at your photo more closely, it really looks like your bed isn't wide enough - do you have another photo taken a little farther back that you could show us? I couldn't tell if there might be a drip line there from the roof - are there gutters? For some of the plants you're considering, specifically the Anemones, they will get quite large and you'd have to give them plenty of room, planting them at least 2' feet away from the house, even better if they were given 3' from the foundation and it doesn't appear that you have that much room?

Dave's suggestions about "mapping" the hours of sun is invaluable information! We've found by watching ours that we can plant some shade plants in an area that gets almost full sun in the spring when it's cooler, but once the trees leaf out, the shade is provided to get them through the hot summers.

Meg, I draw a crude map of different areas of my yard (I have an acre), then make copies. I use 1 map each 1 &1/2 hours or so. Then, when done for the day, I make a consolidated map that shows how many hours of sun, dappled shade on each area. RCN is right. April is very different from June. Plus I've been surprised. I now put Bonica roses west of a line of white pines that I would have never guessed would get enough sun.(they do)
Dave

Meg, Because I'm just Dave, not THE DAVE as in the name of this website.
D (ND)

Meg, I think your choices of plants are great! They sound like they would do perfectly well if planted far enough out from the house. 2 feet away from the house seems like a huge space, but you'll find that it will disappear after the plants have grown for a couple of years.

And you might want to add windowboxes sometime and I can tell you, it's impossible to keep windowboxes nice if you can't reach them! I wish I had listened to my own advice in my front bed, because now I have to climb through my garden every time I pluck a petunia! I find I've been making my living room a mess by reaching out through the windows to plant or dig.

I think your garden will be beautiful, and the foxglove/lily/anemone backing will be gorgeous! You might get a little more planting area too, if you bring it forward. Or you could add a curved edge, if you like that. Do what appeals to you, and use your instincts. You will know what's right for your garden, you can do anything you want!

Meg, It sounds like you are going with a lot of perennials. The first year may look a bit sparse, think about filling in the 'blank' areas with low spreading annuals like the "Wave" petunia or something. Next season things will have filled in and the annuals will be gone.
Personally, I don't want to see the soil. I cover everything with life.
I know that most folks like to mulch and have nice individual plant clusters.
I'm cheap and see that empty space as wasted, and 'have' to stuff something un-invasive in there.
Here is a 3 year old flower bed. There are over 2 dozen types of plants in there. Mixed perennials, annuals, bulbs and tubers. Not counting the Spring bulbs. The basic 'structure' stays the same but I make changes every year. It's 7 feet deep and 25 feet wide.
Andy P

That's true, Andy is right. I especially like the brown dog-flower in front!

Meg, you may think your plants aren't doing well, but give them 3 years to really get going. The first year, they sleep. Second, they creep. Third year, they leap!

Ivy, That 'dog flower' pops up everywhere. LOL
I have to set up a new flower garden this spring, too.
There is a new house being built on the lot next to mine. During the surveying I gained a few feet of street frontage. That spot also got dug up for a sewer connection.
It had been a floundering "Death Valley" where nothing grew well. With junk trees and brush next door drawing all the moisture and shading things out. Now that has been cleaned up.
I have plenty of yearling perennials plus a nice 3 year old Crimson Barberry bush ready to go in. There is an old white Lilac and a Rose of Sharon there that will stay as anchors.
I can't do much until the new house is finished and somewhat landscaped, so I wait.
Here is a pic of the shack ready for demolition. I waited almost 20 years for that day. My house is in the background.
Andy P

Oh, Andy! You must be so excited!

I know how you feel. We had one corner of our backyard that was shaded out by a "woodland" no mans land a neighbor had kept unmaintained. I didn't realize until new neighbors thinned it out how dark and overgrown it had been back there. All the plants that had been struggling in our yard suddenly sprung to life. Now we enjoy a partly sunny area with a real woodland feel, thanks to these lovely neighbors. They did just enough clearing, and kept the good stuff.

You guys are so helpful! This is great.

rcn48: the bed is currently 3' wide, 14' long. I suppose there's no reason I couldn't extend it...except that I don't really know how. But that is find-out-able. How wide does it need to be?
I don't think there's a drip line in front. There are indeed gutters, and there's a seriously visible drip line on the east side of the house, so I have something to compare it to.
Here's another picture--does this help? I could move the bed out somewhat, but there are those 2 trees, and I don't think I can move them!! I want to put a very simple stone path in there somewhere (or maybe a rock path? No shortage of materials there!).

Ivy1: good point about leaving room. I am just not very patient, I guess!

Andy: I also like the overflowing look. Your border is gorgeous! And I have one of those brown dog-flowers too, just the dwarf version! (he's actually a french bulldog--here he is inspecting the front yard)
I'll have to try filling things in this year. But this will be the 3rd year I've had those other plants, and they haven't filled in anything like your garden. Maybe Ivy1 is right and this is the year they'll "leap"...but I still think they'd thank me for a bit more sun.

Meg, did you till this garden area before planting anything. I mean really dig in. At least 8 inches deep, add compost or manure and stuff.
You said you aren't sure how to expand a garden so maybe you only made small holes for each plant. I don't want to offend, but preparation is vital to a healthy garden.
That big garden pictured above took me a month to prepare. Remember, my lot used to be a gravel pit. A month of digging, screening and amending before the first plant went in. Everything took off because there was no competition from outside roots, the soil was fluffy and loaded with goodies. Being in full sun helps too, LOL.
You should also post a better pic of the brown 'Dog Flower'. Frenchies are so cute.
Andy P

He's sooo cute!

Andy, GREAT flower bed! I like the full look too.

And that house next to yours is quite the fixer upper!

Good point, Andy. I think the foundation bed was prepared by my predecessor--there are no external roots, the soil seems good, etc. But I should probably do the same thing in the whole yard if I'm going to plant a lot of stuff there. I think that's my problem with another bed in the back--I prepared it, but not well enough. Is that fix-able? I mean, can I continue digging compost etc into it in the spring and fall, even though there are plants there--sort of scratch in around the plants?

Oh, and here's another picture of our resident Frenchie, looking oh-so-elegant...

Meg, You sure that's not a Yale bulldog with a tan?

Yes you can keep adding mulch or compost on top of your garden. Worms will pull it down. Scratching it in would be a little quicker but not necessary. I know because I impatiently started planting in all my beds before they were prepared.
Dave

Meg, to heck with planting a "border" - rip out that edging and plant the whole area! Andy, gorgeous picture by the way and I love how Sarah always "poses" for you :) And great suggestion for planting the annuals while Meg's waiting for the perennials to mature.

Best advice you've been given here - amend that soil! You wouldn't believe how many bags of peat moss and composted manure I ripped open and added to my beds. Then of course, mulching every year, I'd stir the previous year's mulch into the topsoil each spring and then top it off again! It's amazing how much work the earthworms will do for you under the layer of mulch.

Looking at the other two pictures you posted Meg, I'm looking at that back corner, right where Frenchie is standing, and thinking it's just begging for a nice Oakleaf Hydrangea - would be the perfect height to cover up your neighbor's electrical box and would really fill that corner nicely - of course you'd have to dig up the rose and plant it someplace else.

I played with your photo this morning - placement of the Hydrangea and a climber between the windows - the gray is suggested placement for a few stones. If you plant the entire area, you'll need someplace to step to get in there to weed! Consider planting a silver leaved perennial at the base of the rose to hide its "feet" - a nice combination with a pink blooming rose is Nepeta x faassenii http://davesgarden.com/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=nepeta&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=x+faassenii&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=rating&images_prefs=both&Search=Search. If there's enough sun closer to your steps, any of the creeping Thymes are great fillers planted around the stones http://davesgarden.com/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=Thyme&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=rating&images_prefs=both&Search=Search&searcher[genus]=Thymus.

Just a couple of ideas for you :)

We dump shredded maple leaves from our yard on our winter garden every year. Our soil is better than it's ever been.

Dave: I keep trying to convince the French department that Bertie should be their mascot (get it? French Bulldog??)--no takers yet.

rcn48: that is a GREAT idea! why not? Thank you so much for all the work you did--I still can't believe there are people willing to devote so much time and energy to planning someone else's garden! Maybe it's fun to have a blank slate to think about without, and also I think gardeners are nice people in general.
How hard is it to move a rose? I hope it won't be mad at me :)

Ivy1: Do you rake the leaves up in the spring? Or mix them in? That would be cheap, and my husband would be thrilled if we didn't have to rake! Do you just use the mower to shred them?

I think I have to go to the composting forum--my very expensive compost tumbler (wedding present--nobody chose it off the registry, so it was my wedding present to ourselves) is nowhere near as speedy as it advertised, and I don't have a lot of room for a huge 3-bin system or anything.

So, if I'm going to just plant the whole thing...what should I plant? (besides an oakleaf hydrangea--I'll take you up on that suggestion!) I'm open to ideas...

My husband is a crazy guy who loves to rake- so we do rake a lot. We have a lot of leaves, so a quarter go back into the lawn, and another gets shredded by mower and dumped in the garden. A third quarter goes into the composter, and the last gets bagged and sent to the dump. We usually put them on over the winter, cause they break down more.

If it's not too shady, don't forget a couple of evergreen plants for winter interest....

Hey Ivy, Did that frozen bag of soil come loose from the driveway today?
It is nice and warm, I even washed the car.
Andy P