Norm Deno's "Outdoor Treatment" - anyone try it?

pagancat Hard seeds needs to be nicked and soaked in hand hot water overnight before planting to allow moisture into the seed. That is what I did with the Hibiscus seeds that germinted in 2 days.

I think Lily of the Valley also needs stratification.

I thought about tearing the paper apart and planting, but I found it easier to use a tweezer for more control. I plant the sprouting as soon as I see it has a bit of root.

Well, my Lily of the Valley has been stratifying for months now, lol. And the Phlomis.... well..... I just don't know what to do about those puppies. They aren't hard, heat hasn't helped, cold hasn't helped, peroxide hasn't helped .... grrrr.... and I'm about out of seeds.

I had no idea they could germinate so quickly!! Tomorrow first thing I have to go to the workshop and look at the 40+ bags of seeds in coffee filters.
What if a lot have germinated? I have a lot of lights to set up for them right away. I hadn't counted on them germinating so early.

Pagancat
I hope this helps you from Tom's seed data base. I copied and pasted the info.

Phlomis cashmeriana, fruticosa, russeliana, and samia , Sow at Max. 5ºC (41ºF), germination irregular, often several months

Phlomis tuberosa , Sow at 20ºC (68ºF), if no germ. in 3-4 wks, move to -4 to +4ºC (24-39ºF) for 2-4 wks

I didn't know which variety of Phlomis you have seeds of. Here is the info on all. I will post the link after I send this

Here is the link to all kinds of seeds, including trees. If the link don't work, copy and paste it into your browser.

http://tomclothier.hort.net/

blomma, thanks for the link. I just checked my baggies and I have about 5 with at least one germinated seed. I will take them out and put them in containers and under lights.

QUESTION: Some are damp, but they seem to be drying out a little.
should I spray them with a little water then next time I look? How often should I look?

This is exciting. two special lupins are germinating.

Thanks, Blomma - it's the P. russeliana.

Don't let them dry out!

blomma, thanks for the link, I'll look it over, Jim

gloriag
Congratulations on the 2 sprouting Lupins. I know it's exiting to see seeds sprout. More should come up since some just take their time.

If the filter in the baggie seems somewhat dry, yes spray a bit. I find kitchen paper towel better than filter to keep moisture. Also softer and easier to squeeze excess water from. If they haven't sprouted yet, you can move them to a moist kitchen towel. It won't bother unsprouted seeds.

I check my seeds every day since the roots can begin to grow overnight. I plant them in sowing mix, spacing 1" apart, as soon as I see root activity. Makes it easier to direct into a hole in the mix.

Hi All:
I haven't been here for awhile. Too busy working full time and potting up all my Deno sown seeds that have sprouted, now growing in 6-packs. Deno to me is cold treatment in kitchen paper towel, then placed in the fridge for a certain amount of time. Sometimes twice for those that have double dormancy.

My testing of old seeds turned out to be quite a venture. I hadn't intended to sow seeds to grow, just to test. What a surprise! Then, ofcourse, I couldn't toss those babies out. The problem now is: I sowed too early for my zone 4. Do the seedlings care? No, they just keep growing. Our night temp is still below the freezing point. Today it was 60F degrees. Coming weekend---snow. Crazy!! The seeds in my coldframe should love that flunctuating temperatures. Those were sown Oct '08.

I tried something new with tiny seeds, such as Aubrieta, and Arabis. I filled two small clear plastic containers with lmoistened peat moss. Placed the seeds in the peat mix and gently mixed it in. Covered the container with lids and placed in the fridge to stratify for 1 week. They were sown 3/4/09 and sprouted 3/16/09 after placed in room temperature. I spread the peat/seed mix on the surface of the seeding flat and tamped the mix down. Stuck the flat in a plastic bag. Sure enough they began to grow.

Caption: Photo show 1/2 of what I sowed. All responded with "my" Deno method. Nice day yesterday so gave them an outing in a plastic bin, since I was off work. Back in the house for the night.

And after a mont in the fridge, my Aquilegia seeds are finally starting to sprout in a kitchen paper towel.

blomma, that is so neat! I still have bunches which have not germinated, but I will be looking at them each day. I do have some ornamental rhubarb, cardoon, lots of hollyhock varieties, a few daylily seeds, annual phlox, ruby chard (for ornamental purposes,) globe artichoke (for ornamental purposes,) malva braveheart, a few more lupines, and lots of seeds in cups under lights upstairs which are beginning to germinate quickly like Camelot foxglove and others. This is the most exciting part of the year for me! I still need to plant more seeds too.

I love your peatmoss/seeds in small containers- great idea.

Unfortunately, I had to leave for dental work in Richmond (200+miles away) for three days, and I did lose some seedlings. The same thing will happen next week probably. I am just sick about it, but I can use the fridge for stratifying, even if it gets too warm outside. I keep telling myself that I can do this all through summer if I clean my fridge out really well so that there's plenty of room! So there is time left.

gloriag

I'm sorry you lost some seedlings. I know how that feels. If you have seedlings growing and you need to be away a few day, get one of Walmarts clear plastic bins with lid, the size needed. You can put your precious seedlings, even seeds in there and place the bin outside with shade. Use the lid for protection. You can even trim out air holes for ventilation. This way the plants or seeds won't dry out. Just make sure that the bin receives no direct sunlight or they would cook. Bright light is ok for awhile. If you still have frost, I would put the bin where it gets just light, or mount the plant light over.

Here are mine in the bin on nice days.

The problem is not losing the already germinated ones which are in little cups and plastic bins, but losing the ones which germinate and the roots die before transplanting. But the idea of shade is very good. Thanks!

"Deno to me is cold treatment in kitchen paper towel, then placed in the fridge for a certain amount of time."

Hi, Blomma,

That's the method he made the most popular. But there is another method that is mentioned in the thread title, "Outdoor Treatment." This involves putting the seeds in the towels and all that, but instead of putting them in the fridge, you put them in a sheltered location outside, usually a shed or unheated garage. The idea is to take advantage of the fluctuating tempteratures without exposing them to the pure blast of winter. It works fabulously. I have found it works much better than using just the fridge. He describes what he calls "Outdoor Treatment" in one of his books. Can't remember which one. This year, though, I did not get around to cold stratifying any seeds at all. Heck, I am just now starting my annuals.

When you take the germinated seedlings out of the paper towel, do you plant them in potting mix like MG or a seed starter mix? Thanks for all of your inspiring info.

Hi paracelsus
Yes, I know about putting the baggies outside for fluctuating temperature. I can get the same by taking the baggie out of the fridge for awhile, then putting them back in. I did that with the Clematis seeds and so far one sprouted. Also Penstemon and all have sprouted. These have what is called double dormancy, the reason they need flunctuating temps. Both varieties have tiny seeds. Not all perennials need flunctuating temps.

For larger seeds, I plant in my coldframe without protection and leave them in Mother Nature's hand. I sowed them in Oct 2008 before I knew of the Deno method.
In the coldframe are seeds of:

Daylilies, Irises from my own plants and just for fun since they don't come true from seeds.
Dianthus deltoides
Oenothera (Evening Primrose)
Callirhoe (Winecup)
Echenacea, 3 varieties
Salvia argentea (Silver Sage)
Rhus typhina (Sumac tree)

And guess what! I already have every one germinating and growing with the Deno method, except Callirhoe. That one has double dormancy and difficult to germinate and can take months to do so.

Here is another reason why I don't put baggies or jugs outside to worry about. This photo was taken on 3/23/09. You can see my coldframe is covered with 1 ft of heavy snow. It won't bother seeds in the coldframe, but may have in baggies.

And here are Aubrieta and Arabis after I spread the peat/seed mixture in flats to continue growing.

"When you take the germinated seedlings out of the paper towel, do you plant them in potting mix like MG or a seed starter mix?"

Lynn, I plant them in peat pellets that have been watered with liquid kelp solution. Then they go either under lights or in a little mini-greenhouse outside.

Blomma, I have tried the putting them in and out of the fridge too, but I would sometimes forget, so that wasn't good. For me, the Outdoor Method was easiest and most successful. I have used it with a large number of perennial seeds and had much higher germination than any other method. I originally started this thread three years ago because I wasn't sure if it would work. It works fabulously. I don't know if you could put the baggies in a cold frame. Probably. He describes using an unheated space. I have used an unheated garage and then a metal cabinet that was on a patio with a roof. It is quite nice because it is very compact and there is no digging through snow and all that. The towels actually freeze solid but no harm comes to the seeds.

LynnWiedman
Hi, see my post above on 3/20. All those seedlings were sown by the Deno method, then transferred to seeding mix in 6-packs. Others I tranferred into flats, spacing 1" apart.

The beauty of the Deno method is that there is no oversowing, thus no wasted seeds. If you want 12 plants of one variety, sow a few more for fresh seeds. I have sown seeds I have had since 2004 that germinated. I just used a bit more seeds. This was for testing those seeds, then I got on a roll when I saw how easy "my" Deno method was. So far I have 26 different varieties sown. I'm redoing my borders this season so needed more plants.

Here is a flat of seedlings transferred to a flat and spaced 1" apart in rows. They will go into 6-pack when ready. I'm the seed sower in the family so will share with my kids

paracelsus
See my post above. They are transferred to seed starting mix because that mix is finer grained for tiny roots. I don't like peat pellets for they dry out too fast and roots grow alongside the pellets before they are ready to be planted out. I use a mini fork (pickle fork) to lift seedling out of the flat when replanting to 6-packs. I have 2, 4ft shelves with grow lights full of seedling. I would not have that had I put the baggies outside.

I got carried away with sowing this year. Usually, I split the varieties and sow twice. First in the spring, second in July through August. Then I don't have as many seedlings to handle at the same time. They then go in the coldframe till large enough. Those sown later in the season, I also transplant to my coldframe to overwinter there. By spring the following year, they are husky plants and ready for permanent location. Some will even bloom that following year. This year my coldframe is full of seeds waiting to sprout with warmer weather so have to figure something else out.

Actually, there is no right way, or wrong way to germinate seeds. It is whatever works for YOU.

I know some people have problems with the peat pellets, but I haven't had any. I tend to overwater, though. I haven't had problems with the roots not growing through. Last year I had stuff that I kind of neglected (kind of???) and by the time I took the flat of peat pellets out to transplant, there were huge roots running all through beneath the peat pellets. Everything was all intertwined. I can't remember which plant that was--oh yeah, the artichokes. Those things have some tough roots.

paracelsus, Blomma, I had the same trouble with the peat pellets, of them drying out and the roots growing out of the peat. but I might use them on some species that hate to have their roots messed with. I usually germinate in plastic clam shell boxes. but for longer germinating seeds, like Cardiocrinum. I use the peat in ziploc bags. it would be nice if every species germinated the same, but that isn't going to happen. Jim

You guys are so encouraging. I am going to try germinating some Datura, Hibiscus, and Miribilis seeds using this method today.

Does anyone have homemade coldframes? How do you make them--or is there a thread for that? Thanks!

KyWoods
I do. I couldn't garden without a coldframe. All a coldframe is, are 4, 12" wide boards butted together with L-shaped screw plates on the corners to form a box. Mine is 3 ft x 6 ft made to fit an old window frame. The box is placed on the ground at an angle so that the front is lower than the back. I filled the box with good soil. You need at least 6" of soil to plant in. My coldframe is dug in about 2" deep, deeper in the front to slant. The window frame has a shade cloth attached and is hinged in the back. If need be, I can put plastic on it also. The coldframe is situated by my back link fence so that a chain will hold the cover open

To protect plants from animals, I lay a wire frame, the kind that is used for cement for strenght. Don't know what it is called. It is stiff so can bend the sides around the sides to hold it down. It looks like a rough chicken wire.

Years ago, I made a coldframe out of old discarded railroad ties that were free for the taking. The cover had a lath screen for shade.

Here is the one from railroad ties.

LynnWeidman

Soak the Datura in hand hot water overnight before germinating them. Nick and soak Hibiscus seeds in hand hot water overnight also. My old Hibiscus seeds sprouted in 2 days with the Deno method.

Datura can take up to 30 days and sprout erratically. I have 24 Datura plants in 2, 6-packs.

Speakeing about forgetting. I had a ziplock baggie full of 2 packages of different Clematis. I could not find them. That was 1 week ago. I had just taken them out of the fridge after 1 week, for the second time. Lord behold, I had stuck them on my window sill. NOW, I remember. Found them this morning. One is Clematis "Radar Love' from Parks, the other are seeds I snitched from a plant growing in Home Depot 2 years ago. Three more 'Radar Love' had sprouted. So now I have 4 altoghether. You better believe I'm going to baby them. Already planted in with the first one that sprouted in a seeding flat. I started them on 2/18. Others in the napkin has swelled so ready to sprout also.

Radar Love is a neat little flower - you're going to love it.

Nice job, Blomma! There are old plexiglass windows we have from my son's old treehouse, just lying on the ground in the woods. I was thinking of using those. I think we have some of that screen, too.

KyWoods
That should work. If you can, face the broad side of the coldframe to the south. That way when the sun moves, it will hit both sides of plants. I couldn't do that since my yard is small and where it is, is the only place to put it so its out of the way and not against a neighbor's fence. Have to put larger seedlings on the right side so they don't overshadow those in front on the left side.

Pagancat What can you tell me about 'Radar Love'. I bought the seeds from Parks Seeds but not much information was given. How tall does it climb? According to Park it will bloom the first season. That I doubt. Does it take the same care as regular Clemitis? I wanted that one because it is suppose to be smaller than others.

Thanks, Blomma, I'm anxious to get them started now. Kinda late in the season, but that's okay, and I'll have them for next year.

I have my Miribilis, Datura, Morning Glories, Orange Lantana, Coral Vine, Hyacinth Bean, Castor Bean, Sweet Peas, Canna and Banana Musa all soaking.

Put in wet paper towels and then in baggies: Hollyhock, Mexican Sunflower, Popsickle Lupine, Pink Wave Petunia, Salvia Black & Blue, Rudbeckia Green Wizard, and several Echinaceas. Now I need to look and see which ones need the cold stratification and which ones need heat.
After they germinate and are planted in 6 packs, then do they go outside in a clear plastic container? Or do they go in the GH?
This is exciting. I love to try new techniques (for me). Thanks for the help.
I have over 270 wintersown containers outside on my deck. This is my first year, and I kinda went overboard, ya think? I want to see what works best for me, Deno or my plastic container ghetto.

Lynn
Just a quick note before going to work. Try this seed data base. Will tell you which ones need cold treatment. IF the link don't work copy and paste it into your browser.

We have another snow storm---again. Yuck!

http://tomclothier.hort.net/

Hey Blomma - I got my 'Radar Love' from another grower - he had a whole mess (and I do mean mess) of them that had overgrown their pots and everything around them. Still, even at that rate, the longest one was maybe 4' long (he hadn't trellised or anything) and fairly well branched. I don't know how long he had them - I'd be willing to guess they had been propagated (that's how he does most of his stuff) the spring before (this was August or later). But I wouldn't be surprised if it were to bloom in the first season, if you are able to get them going early enough.

Unfortunately, mine was left on a shelf to overwinter and didn't get any moisture, so.... I'll have to get another one from him!

OMG, Lynn - you are going to be one busy gal!!!!

Unknown seedlings germinated by cold stratification outside. (the sun bleached the ink off the tag)