Norm Deno's "Outdoor Treatment" - anyone try it?

I have just sowed daylily seeds in plastic bags & coffee filters. I will remove them to warmth in about three weeks, I think.

Now what about the very tiny seeds like foxgloves?
Do they work on a coffee filter? A lot of other seeds are tiny like that too. What do you suggest.

I do have 30 something bags of seeds in wet filters in the cold shop where they will get plenty of fluxuations.

Now I am looking a big seeds, especially lupine and hardy hibiscus. Will they germinate in the shop too?

Last winter I winter sowed on my back patio facing north. I am near the bottom of a hill and the wind seems to sweep down the hill and form a little frigid zone there. Some cups were icy way into May. I had germination coming on much later than I expected. I do have plenty of light set up places and can add more. What should I do?
And why can I not stop myself from planting more and more seeds? I guess I am just greedy, but not about money, etc.- just about seeds and plants.

Hi All:
This should settle any argument. I just found this site and though I would pass it along.

http://theseedsite.co.uk/index.html

By the way, I understand that wintersowing is mainly for perennials that need stratification--refrigerator or outdoors. Mot annuals are always sown in Febraury or March, depending where you live, to bloom the same season. They do not need stratification.

I have read that with tiny seeds, mix them with sand or very fine peatmoss in a baggie to stratify. Makes it easier to plant after.

I am using the kitchen paper towel method to get seeds to sprout before planting. I don't like coffee filters because they are harder to squeeze water from. I cut a towel in 1/2, then fold one end over. Place the seeds in one corner, fold the end over, then over again to get a square. I use a black permanent marker to code each little package. Stick in a ziplock baggie, close but leave a space to blow and fill it like a balloon. The air will stay if you sealed it right. This way the plastic isn't laying directly on the precious packages of seeds. I either place the baggie where it's warm, or in the frig, depending on the variety.

When you see tiny roots emerging, use a tweezer to carefully transfer the seed to a flat filled with a sowing mix and plant as usual. Make sure the root is pointed downwards. The seeds need to develop a certain amount roots before their upwards growth. At this point, place the flat in average room temperature with or without light. They only need light once they break through the soil.

I used this method for the first time this year and it is great. My main reason was to test some old seeds I have had for a few years. As seeds sprouted in the paper towel, it dawned on me that this was a great way to just get the number of plants you want, instead of oversowing and wasting seeds. We have all done that.

Now I have had sowed and germinated Scabiosa, Datura, Swamp Weed, Silver Sage, garden Geranium 'Vision' and Centaurea macrocephala. The Heliopsis are ready today to sow.

To date, I have 21 different varieties of seeds in paper towels. Tonight will do Hibiscus.

Caption: The old seeds of Centaurea macrocephala after 7 days in kitchen towel method at 70F degrees. I planted 10 and 7 germinated.

For some reason, seeds sprout quicker in paper towels, than in soil.

Here is a 3" foam pot with 2 seedlings of the Centaurea macrocephala. I usually plant each in a smaller pot but was unprepared for such quick germination. i

I'll have to try that:) I have tons of seeds that I've hoarded over the years and from the various swaps here at DG. I don't need huge amounts of plants so this would be the best option for me to try. Thanks for all the interesting reading everyone:)

Blomma is right--you don't need to cold stratify foxglove seeds. They will sprout easily and quickly just by sprinkling them on top of moist planting medium and gently firming them in. They should germinate in 1-2 weeks at cool room temperature. I have grown a lot of foxgloves of different species and have never cold stratified the seeds.

I have noticed that people doing wintersowing try cold stratifying seeds that don't need it. Cold stratification really helps with perennials, but with annuals, it is pointless.

"Wintersowing" is one type of cold stratification, which can be done in many ways.

Actually, not all perennials require stratification---species of Datura, Delosperma (iceplants), Hibiscus, Buddleia, Gaillardia, and many others. Some require cool temperatures for germination. Still others require warmth, then stratification. Add to that, some seeds have a double dormancy so the fluctuation of temperature have to be done more than once.

demac085 Try my kitchen paper towel method on your old seeds. You may get a surprise like I did. If cold is needed, stick in refrig, if not, place the baggie in a warm place, like top of refrigerator.

demac085
Look what I found when I opened this kitchen paper towel full of seeds after only 2 days. This should get you going with your old seeds. These are Hibiscus moscheutos that I nicked, soaked, and planted on 3/1/09. The seeds are 3 years old and were stored in my garden shed during that time. I just took the photo tonight before transplanting them into a seed flat.

I tried germinating a few seeds from this variety and seed package 3 years ago. Only one germinated over a period of 2 weeks. These germinated in 2 days!!!

And here is my flat of Helianthus maximillian. They were stratified with the moist paper towel method, enclosed in a baggie for a week in the refrigerator. They germinated shortly after. A few haven't broken the soil yet. These are new seeds I just purchased from Parks.

I have read that sometimes an older seed will germinate more easily than a younger seed. Do you think that's what was going on with the hibiscus?

Thanks so much Blooma:) Those look great!

peracelsus
No, I don't think that is why. I know that some seeds have double dormancy, but those are mainly tree seeds.

I'm on a roll and had to put up my plant lights over my shelves since many germinated using the Deno method. Not all were placed in the frig. All but 3 were old seeds. Now need to put up a second light since more have germinated.

Here are some of them already planted and spaced nicely from germinating using Deno method.

Dianthus--upper left.Very tiny seedlings
Hibiscus
Hardy Geraniums
Helianthus maximillianii
Datura
Heliopsis

Okay, I'm wondering if there's many plants that would do better with the baggie/ Deno way than sitting on heat mats - I guess only those that need to be cold stratified? I just don't want to have to transplant seedlings at that stage unless necessary.

I have put seeds in damp paper towels and in baggies and then on heat mats. This is usually the way I propagate datura, for instance. But I would only do this with a tender perennial, and even then, with some like tomatoes, peppers and eggplants (or tobacco), I would start them in peat pellets over a propagation mat instead. These germinate pretty reliably after all. The Norm Deno Outdoor Treatment method is for perennial seeds that require cold stratification. I have NOT found just planting them outside in fall to be equivalent to it. Too much attrition.

I have used the Deno method for all my perennials. Those that needed stratification I put in the frig for 2 weeks. They germinated after I took them out and left them on a shelf in room temperature. Some I returned to the frig for longer stratification and eventually those germinated also. I had to do that with Callirhoe seeds (Winecups) and also Clematis seeds.

I have more luck with Deno method, than sowing straight into seeding mix in flats. Germintion is quicker. It's not hard to put the seeds in soil once they sprout with tiny roots. Just make sure the roots are facing downwards. I use a tweezer and hold on to the emptly seed shell. I can space them nicely and no oversowing.

Yeah, I like the no oversowing aspect. Another way to plant without using tweezers is just tear the paper towel apart and gently press into the soil. The roots will grow right through it. I have done this many times with both large and tiny seeds. It works well and saves time.

Well, I must be trying to do the wrong seeds - admittedly, they're both known to be hard.... Phlomis and Lily of the Valley.

I think the more we buy seeds from other areas of the world, that we're going to run into having to used different methods in germination. I was reading about collections in places like China and Tibet in the Mastergardener Magazine. Kelly Dobson of Far Reaches Nursery. said it can take several years to germinate some species. and one was 11 years. I don't think I'll try that one. so if you don't get germination right away, don't throw them out. Jim

"...don't throw them out...."

Send them to you?