Is this weird or what????

Being a newbie at Dave's Garden, I decided to go back and read some of the older threads. I came across something that really made me ask the question "Are all seed company's seeds created equal?" Under the topic of "How did you get started in heirlooms?", there's a post by Byron that I found quite interesting. Byron said:

" For an experiment, I grew some habanero peppers, seeds from Johnnys, Stokes, Shepherds, Ferry Morse and Totally Tomatoes. The plants from Totally Tomates did poor, poor pod production and no heat. Ferry Morse were Medium, Johnny's was 60 to 80 pods per plant, and so hot you could "feel" the heat on your face when you picked them. Shepherds and Stokes were almost as good as Johnny's, Not quite as many pods per plant. Same season same garden about 1/2 dz plants of each. Soil is 30 years of organic material. Ave 16 in deep."

Byron's test results were nothing short of amazing! Does the geographic location of harvested seeds play any role in the success or failure of a crop? Byron lives in New Hampshire. Here's the location of the seed companies Byron ordered from and a rating of the his pepper crop from A+ to F:

Johnny's-----------Maine---------------A+
Stokes-------------New York/Ontario----A
Shepherd's---------Connecticut---------A
Ferry Morse--------Kentucky------------C
Totally Tomatoes---Georgia-------------F

The pepper seeds that came from a climate much like Byron's New Hampshire grew and performed very well. The pepper seeds that came from Georgia which is far, far from New Hampshire grew and performed very badly. Is this a fluke? As you all know, seed companies are scattered all over the USA. Should we be ordering our seeds from a company who is located in a climate much like our own? What do all of you think? Does any of this matter at all? To tell you the truth, I'd never even thought about any of this until I read Byron's test results and now I'm wondering if I should order seeds from a company that's closer to me rather than far away.

Pete2

Pete,

If you review that thread you'll see that I touched on this very subject.

Plants---especially OPs---do, indeed, adapt to the local growing conditions. Thus, whenever possible, it's best to buy/trade seeds from plants that were grown under similar conditions.

You can get too carried away with this, though. Many varieties are universal in nature. That is, they give acceptible results across the board. Most mainstream seed companies, in fact, try and stock varieities like that.

Some are very susceptible to localization. Corn is, perhaps, the most noteworthy of this. Take, for instance, Cherokee White. It was grown only by the Cherokee. Even their immediate neighbors grew other varieties. As a result, it was so adapted to those conditions (BTW, something like this is called a "landrace") that it isn't happy any other way.

However, if you save seed from a variety that, overall, does poorly by you, you can get it to adapt. Save seed only from the best example of the plant/fruit, and plant that the following year. Then do it again.

However, there is also the problem that not every seed company is reliable. It's quite possible to get seed that is adapted to your conditions, but which still has a poor germination and performance record.

There's one company I know of, for instance, that I am convinced repackages old seed. It has too big a history of poor germination, from growers all over the country.

At least one supplier on Byron's list has a similar reputation.

So, the answer to your question is, maybe. If the varieties you want are available from a reputable supplier close to home, then that's the best way to proceed. However, do not avoid a variety that sounds interesting just because the supplier is far from home.

Thanks, Brook. I did notice that you explained about this kind of phenomenon. Once I looked closely at Byron's results, I was floored! I never imagined that it would really make that big of a difference. I've always ordered my seeds (all OP) from a number of places and will continue to do so.

BTW, today I read (online) an article you wrote in Mother about heirlooms. You had mentioned it in another thread to someone and I looked it up. I just wanted to tell you that you're really a terrific writer. I really liked the way you explained everything about heirlooms so thoroughly. I'm one of those gardeners that saves every good gardening article they read in a HUGE notebook. Actually, I've got quite a few 3 inch binders now. I thought your heirloom article looked familiar and so I checked my "file". Yup, there it was. I had already saved it for future reference.

Pete2,
That is really interesting. But it raises one really big question. Who supplies the seeds to each of the companies and where are those suppliers located at?
I would be really like to know if southern gardeners have the same or different success rates with these companies.

Well, Pete, that's at least two people who read it---you and my Momma. :-)

Seriously, thanks for the kind words.

Sari: Depends on the company, and the kinds of seeds it sells.

Most of the big, general seed houses (i.e., Burpee, Shumways, etc.) grow very little of their seed directly. Instead they have farmers growing it on contract. And those farmers may or may not be local. Mainstream seed companies usually use their own land to trial new varieites.

The small, speciality houses (such as Baker Creek, Pine Tree, etc.) usually grow most of their own seed. But they do have some of it grown on contract, usually by local farmers. And some of them buy a small percentage of their seed from other companies. How dependible that seed is depends on the reliability of the buying company.

If you're ever concerned about a particular variety, ask the seed house where it was grown. Most of them will answer honestly.

Frankly, localization is more a problem with heirlooms and OPs then it is with hybrids. One of the selection criteria used for hybrids, especially those destined for the home garden market, is that they be universal in nature. Thus, they will grow well anywhere within the zone range given for that seed. The down side, of course, is that you can't save seed from those varieties, and have to re-purchase it every year.

Sari

90% of the worlds seeds are controled by about 18 companies.

Semines, Novartis and Monsanto is over 60%.

The common types are purchased by the lb, and these seed companies package them up.

In the front of Stokes seed catalog you will find an ASTRA listing of seed companies. These are your world wholesalers

Some of the smaller companies are now advertising "locally grown"

Another area to watch is "Exclusive" these seeds are most often grown by that company.


As Brook pointed out some plants are widely adapted some are not. I am into hot peppers, I grow a chocolate habanero, seeds exculsive from FLA, After 3 years of saving seeds, these plants are doing about 20 to 30% better than the first year, ~ More, larger pods and bigger plants.

I have grown a Sweet Orange Cherry from Stokes, back of package was stamped "Country of origin Japan" some of my Cole crop seeds came from Holland.


Totally Tomatoes in my book is a total looser, I had 4 different seed borne diseases from them, About 6 pkg of seeds with almost no germination what so ever.

Cost me about $1,000 for that order..

Byron

so if i have a rotten heirloom tomatoe ( i mean rotten now not when it was good for eating) Can I take those seeds,dry them and possibly develop a better tomatoe for my area? it was called "Long Keeper"

The best seeds usually come from slightly overripe tomatoes.

Chances are you can salvage the seed from the Long Keeper.

Squeeze the pulp and gel mass into a suitable container. Add an equal volume of water. Then put it in a warm place, out of direct sunlight. Stir once a day.

After about 3 days the fermentation process will start. The viable seeds will fall to the bottom. Bad seeds, gel, and other debris, along with a white mold, will float on the surface. When all the good seed has dropped (which can take 5-7 days), pour off the crud, then rinse the seed well. Put it on screens or paper plates to dry---which will take about three weeks.

To test germination levels, take ten dry seeds. Lay them out on a damp paper towel and roll it up in a plastic bag. Put in a warm place. After three days, start checking to see if the seed has germinated. All the viable seed will have sprouted in no more than ten days. Then figure your germination rate. If, say, eight seeds sprout, you have an 80% rate.

Sari, you're so right. That does raise an interesting question. I read online at the Stokes site that their seed farms are located in Ontario. I'm not sure if they harvest all of the seeds they offer.

Pete2

Pete,

You don't want to get too carried away with this. While it's true that some varieties are highly adapted, the fact is that most seeds will do okay wherever you are. If you ever get a crop failure, chances are there was a different cause than where you got the seed.

Let's not forget the thousands of seeds that were brought here by immigrants from Europe, Asia, and South America. They didn't always find the same conditions, but their veggies grew and thrived. Indeed, I'll be growing an Italian heirloom tomato this year that came to America just that way only 25 years ago. So far, that seed has done well in Long Island, in Maine, and in Colorado---three pretty diverse ecosystems.

Pure landrace seeds that are so adapted they won't grow anywhere else are not available from commercial sources. So there's no need to worry about that unless you trade with some real specialists. And in that case, they will tell you about the special conditions you need to meet.

Here is a couple samples of not widely adapted.

In Stokes, Johnnys and Vessey's you can find some Siberian and sub artics. These guys like it cool, Odds are they
they wouldn't do very well in Howes By-u or tumble weed territory.

Pete2

Look on the bottom of left of pg 1 of Stokes Catalog.
There are 33 other seed suppliers noted..

Byron

Byron

Brook:Thank you for the seed info. Now out to the compost pile. Have to bring a flashlight but those Long Keepers were nice.

Pete2

Page 1, Stokes Seed Catalog, Bottom left hand corner.

List 33 companies that they get seeds from


Byron

Byron, I have misplaced my Stokes catalog. We're in the process of painting the interior of the house and there's no telling where it is. Are any of the 33 companies that Stokes buys seeds from southern companies? I'm just curious. Thanks.

Pete2

From Japan, Holland, Swiss, I guess most of the world.

I think you will find their Exculsive varieties are home grown..


Not positive..

Byron

Well, I sure never expected that they imported seeds from all over the world. Interesting for sure. Thanks for looking it up for me.

Pete2