IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Regarding group purchases (Co-ops)

I agree with Jamie. It sounds terribly complicated, but it really isn't. Think of it like riding a bike. Pretty easy if you know how, right? Now think of what it would look like if you were trying to write a how-to manual for new riders. (A case of "easier DONE than SAID" ;o)

A lot of the process is second-nature to those who have participated in any type of plant trade or round robin - it's just on a bigger scale. I think we sometimes try to over-explain it to make sure we don't leave out details we wish we had known ahead of time.

Yep... or trying to explain how to tie your shoes. Sounds kind of complicated, but it isn't! :)

I would just say to be honest with yourself and don't try to take on more than you can handle. I didn't think 500 daylilies sounded like a lot. Pack up 50 boxes and send 'em on. No big deal. But once those HUGE boxes of plants showed up and I had all those bags and bags of DLs in my guest room... well, it started looking a lot worse! I really thought Staci and Terrie helping me was going to be a nice bonus, but not necessary. Now I know I could NEVER have gotten that done in 1 day without their help.

Well, I know how to ride a bike and how to tie my shoes, but the bike and the shoes don't give me a hard time about it. Ya know? ;-) I'm really not a good candidate for hosting a co-op. Not enough patience for dealing with insanity. And no talent at all for diplomatic red tape. LOL.

I was only thinking of a very small, fast plant co-op. There is a particular plant that several of us are drooling over . . . anyway, before I can even find out if the vendor can do this I need to know if there is sufficient interest. I can't even put out feelers until I get approved. I feel like once I get approved, I'm committed. *sigh* The process feels backwards. I can see that many a potential host would be put off.

But it's for the best in my case. I'm better off paying full price for my plant and keeping my sanity (what little I have).

Cheri'

Well, for the record, I didn't have any "difficult" participants in my co-op and it went pretty smoothly. I know that isn't always the case though and I do understand not wanting to take on the task!

Cheri', if you really aren't going to do a co-op, once you have purchased your plant (so you won't be tempted to change your mind about hosting a co-op LOL) I would like to know what that particular plant is that you were drooling over. :^}

It's good thinking,

It really isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. Partly because it happens in managable steps. Nothing really simultaneously. Especially if you are starting with one plant. And honestly, NO ONE gives you a hard time! These are the nicest people in the world, despite what you may have thought reading some threads. And it will make you some marvelous friends.

One of the best "feelers" you could put out, would be to Terry. She sees tons of the forums, and has done coops, so she could give you a really good idea if it would fly. Why don't you send her a private email and ask? But really, if it is something that several people that you know want, or you have seen mentioned on here, it's probably something that everyone wants. 1. Is it rare, unusual or difficult to find locally? 2. Expensive to find locally, and you can get us a bargain? Then you have a viable coop possibility.

And it doesn't really take a lot of diplomacy or I'd never have made it. I'm the least diplomatic person I know. It helps if you are an organized person, but with one plant, even that isn't a requirement.

It isn't as bad as we make out, and really is rewarding and a lot of fun.

Personally, I feel it's time for co-op organizers to be somewhat compensated for their time, effort, fuel expenses, and etc. I remember when Eyes did the caladium co-op and she had approximately 12,000+ bulbs to send out and with the help of other members - some who drove a few hours to assist - she did it like a champ. Where else would anyone have gotten caladiums at such a discount? Even if she was able to add 10-20% for herself to the order, every participant would still gotten a great deal.

On the other hand, some nurseries listed in the Plant Scout are charging an arm and a leg for plants. As a nursery owner myself - I only sell locally - I realize that overhead costs are a fact of life, but why not let a co-op person get a small piece of the pie too?

Because then you need a tax ID number?

How many times is this hread going to be displayed?

I've already responded to it but it keeps coming up

It will keep coming up as long as people respond to it. You can just take it off your "Watch List" if you are not interested in seeing it again.

I think it is very important that co-op organizers do not loose money and I don't mind if they end up with a few bucks to go out for a nice dinner, but adding a 10-20% markup kind of goes against the entire idea of a co-op.

On a related note...it seems that the co-ops with the best deals are the ones where the organizer can pick up the plants from the grower/wholesaler in person. I have been surprised a couple times when after adding in dual shipping costs the total cost is no better than can be found retail on the web but people still get all excited about the co-op.

- Brent

Interesting Brent. I have yet to find a coop that wasn't a good value. Even with dual shipping, the varieties and/or the size of the items that I have purchase in any the of DG coops are far superior than local or individual mail order, as far as I'm concerned. I need to go shopping in Sterling! LOL

There have been some DLs that I have gotten cheaper locally (ie Stella), but then again, I wouldn't buy those via coop. I, and I think most shoppers do, buy stuff they wouldn't normally get locally or buy something not too expensive that they want to "experiment" with at low cost if things go wrong.

I love coops, I love coops, I love coops

An organizer can ask each participant to add a reasonable amount or percentage of the total to offset their actual expenses (namely gas/travel, boxes, packaging supplies, etc.) but if they're going to add a markup that compensates them for their time and effort, that places them in the position of retail vendor. And that means they're technically liable for reporting the income to the IRS and - more painful yet - they're holding themselves out for the customer service issues (refunds, credits, etc.) that go along with being a de facto mailorder vendor.

And actually, I enjoy the coops as they are. I get things I wouldn't normally, I have fun doing it, I make new friends, and my costs are rarely as much as if I went out to dinner. And this lasts longer than dinner, usually with less indigestion!

If it were a business, it would be a chore. One thing I don't need, is more chores.

Agree with what Terry said. I've never marked up to cover my gas, or anything else... something to think about I guess... BUT, I really want to be justthe facilitator, not customer service... there are too many people who participated in some of my co ops that think I am just that, a retailer... any refunds that I give have to come from my pocket because although I have, and have offered to take plants back when someone was disappointed, the vendor doesn't take returns...

I have to echo what Terry has said... SMALLER CO OPS and more of them.

I limited the amount and number of people in this one... and I still couldn't make everyone happy... so if I ever do another one, cut it in half of the one I just did which was 50 participants, I will also severely limit varieties. That to me sounds like quick and painless co op. :-)

Terry, curious, has anyone thought about doing another one from Great Mountain Transplants? If someone is interested in doing a smaller co op, that could be a good source.....

I need to re-read the co-op primer. I'm specifically interested in knowing if it outlays to the participants (buyers) the inherent risks associated with purchasing via a co-op. If it does, perhaps requiring that all participants read and sign (check a box or whatever) prior to signup would help to alleviate some of these issues.

I have been guilty of jumping into the ring and ordering away without reading every detail.

And I hope and pray I don't owe any one postage! If I do-please e-mail me!

I participated in a bunch of co-ops last year and the year before. I've had only one bad experience. And that was not the host's fault, it was a postal problem. I took the loss. What else can you do?

It's made me a little wary, not wanting to put too much into a single co-op order. But life has conspired to prevent that, anyway. LOL

If I owe anyone postage, I wish they would let me know it. I try very hard to keep up with that stuff, but I am a confirmed ditz.

NoH2O, someone else has decided to try to do the co-op that I chickened out of. If it comes to fruition I'll be helping keep the orders straight.

Cheri'

Cheri', has it been started on the co-op thread yet?

I placed an order with GMT this spring - it should come in any day. I just ordered 1 flat of 72. I wanted to order some 32 size plants but couldn't justify a whole flat. I would definitely be interested in a co-op with them.

Nope, not yet. It's still in the information gathering stage.

Cheri'

Jazzpunkin, I'm not required to have a federal tax id number aka EIN because I am a sole proprietor of a limited liability company and do not hire any employees. I do have an EIN, but it was a matter of personal choice.

Brent, I guess we have to agree we disagree about the idea of a percentage. I'm not aware that you have ever organized a co-op before and please feel free to correct me if I'm am wrong. Look at it this way..... when folks go out to dinner at a restaurant they tip the waitress even though she doesn't actually prepare the meal or wash the dishes. I don't feel a co-op organizer should be treated any differently. That's just my thoughts, and I have no clue about your tipping habits when you go out to eat.

Terry, I agree income should be reported. But since you mentioned the tax issue - albeit federal - let me ask you this.... Aren't member's of some states required to report/pay state sales tax on their state tax return for co-op purchases? State taxes have been known to have to be paid somewhere down the line in some states - usually the original supplier doesn't require them because they are shipping out of state. Also a co-op organizer can always deduct their personal expenses to offset the percentage they receive, and even if they don't file that way they will still come out ahead for their time and hard work reporting the income in most circumstances.

Carol, did you host a co-op where you were required to remit use tax after ordering from an out-of-state vendor? I'm racking my brain trying to think of which co-op(s) you organized...maybe you can jog my memory?

To answer the general question: in a few cases, organizers have had to pay the sales tax upfront, and it was built into the purchase price. Tennessee doesn't collect sales tax on agri-business sales, so it's a moot point for me when I buy from an in-state vendor, and I don't think it would be an issue for anyone ordering from a Tennessee vendor via mailorder. (However, I'm not a tax accountant, and I'm not up-to-date on my internet sales tax laws, some of which have probably changed.)

The bottom line is that co-ops were started with one very simple rule: no profit is to be made from them. An organizer should certainly expect to break even, but making a profit from them (even if it's chalked up to "pain and suffering") is still profit, and would require the organizer to then act as a retail seller. I can't speak for all organizers, but I for one don't want to place myself in that position.

I have to second Terry's feelings in that I do not want to be owed nor owe anyone anything. I look at it as a transaction and know upfront what I'm getting in to and so if I feel I need to recover gas or boxes or tape then it's my job to make sure I state that upfront in the rules.

I have not hosted a co-op but am kicking it around. I do however know about being a waitress. As I did make tips they were not the greatest because contrary to what some think waitresses do not make minimum wage as cooks and dish washers do.

I had so many customers tell me it was against the law for the resturant to not pay minimum wage but Federal laws says 2.25 an hr for a waitress. Then they would say oh yeah but you make tips. No because most people don't tip. The resturant is suppose to make up the difference but they would say if you wasn't making the difference in tips you were doing something wrong. I beg to differ that.
When I worked at Waffle house my son come to work as a cook starting out at 6.50 an hr. How fair is that? And the waitress is the dishwasher there.

My 2 cents about a co-op is as the organizer (me), I will get triple blessed: I will get a discounted price like the rest of the participants, I will meet and make new friends, and I will be making it possible for myself and others to enjoy plants they may not find or otherwise maybe couldn't afford.

Nothing on this earth makes me as happy as bringing a smile to someones face. There is no price tag I could put on that.

One of the greatest thing DG offers is a place to let your hair down, kick off your shoes and relax. There would be nothing more stressful to me than if this place was a job. Here I get away from all of that.

I also understand in some states you have to have a special license to sell plants? That is what I was told by someone.

No thanks, I am sick but not that sick.

Blessings,
Sandy ^8^

Terry, approximately 45 states require buyers to pay taxes on internet sales, but a few states have an exemption for the first few hundred dollars of purchases. The term "use tax" was probabably coined because one state cannot collect "sales tax" from another one and may be a matter of linguistics. Also, the seller isn't liable, but the buyer still is in certain states.

As to answer your question about if I organized a co-op - it could have been easily found with a quick search on this site, unless I am unaware I am a "secret squirrel", so why ask me a question I honestly feel you already had an answer to? Now if you asked about the ones I participated in it would be a different story because I've participated in the best of ones since bubble-gum, as well as the ones that have gone terribly bad since I've been a member here.

I have more tax info to post as well as comments, but I have to travel out of town the next couple of days and I'll catch up with this thread when I return. Carol

Carol, since your comment to Brent implied you were speaking from personal experience in regards to organizing a co-op, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Plus, I lack the time to ferret out the proverbial needles in the haystack, especially when I can just ask for clarification.

State "use tax" has been around longer than the internet, but it's become more of an issue for individuals since the internet has driven online purchases to the point where states are feeling the effect of lost sales tax revenue.

Whether or not each organizer is required to remit use tax requires a working knowledge of the applicable state tax laws. Hopefully you're not suggesting that we begin requiring all organizers to demonstrate they have fully complied with all applicable state tax laws - that would most likely be the final nail in the coffin of all future co-ops.

I think Dave's point in this thread was to make everyone aware that all co-ops need to be pre-approved by us. If anyone has specific questions about a co-op they're interested in organizing, you're welcome to ask them here or email us. Winding our way through a myriad of "what-if" hypotheticals is likely to result in us all losing sight of the reason for this thread.

Carol: It seems like the big difference between your waitress and co-op organizer analogy is that the waitress relies on tips as a significant portion of her income where this is not the case with the co-op organizer. Or at least it is not supposed to be the case. And no, I have never organized a co-op.

- Brent

I think it's generally accepted that it is the responsibility of consumers to be familiar with and follow their own state's laws on Use Tax. None of the out-of-state mail order companies I do business with tell me/remind me to pay Use Tax in Kansas. It's just not the place of the seller to insure consumers pay their taxes. To bring it up in this discussion is a moot point IMHO.

As for earning income by being a coop organizer, I don't think that's a thing any coop organizer wishes to do. That's why folks that have been organizers continue to do it because they enjoy doing it and getting a good deal (like all the participants). Throw out the idea of compensating them in any way and thereby requiring that they report any "income" they receive on federal or state tax returns will likely result in few to no coops in the future. It simply isn't a headache (filing income returns) that most of us would want to take on for the amount of money that has been suggested.

The process works as is and there are ocassionally problems in coops. Those problems as yet haven't stopped most people from participating in future coops (although I'm sure there are a few folks that do not/won't be in a coop because of a past bad experience). Organizers are still continuing to offer coops and will likely do so. I think the idea of compensating organizers is not needed because I think the real deterrent to more people not organizing coops is the sheer time and work that is involved and not the fact that they don't get compensated. So the best thing that participants can do for organizers is: 1) follow the instructions given by the host to minimize their workload, 2) understand that questions/emails/posts may not be answered immediately because hosts have other primary roles in their life (not just being a DG coop host), and 3) give thanks and praise when you feel it's deserved. Personally I just get my kicks of doing a coop by seeing the beautiful photos people post of the product they purchased.

The worst coops are those that go completely sour and people are out money and no plants. That's pretty obvious. However, other coops are deemed "poorly run" because an organizer stops posting for some subjective period of time or fails to ship plants in a "timely manner" (again a subjective thing). So in my estimation the things a coop host can do to insure a "good" coop is to keep posting and ship as quickly as possible. If life/health/family/job prevents a host from doing that then the host should ask for help from the Administrators (Dave/Terry). I think Dave & Terry should not hold such a request against an organizer by way of hesitating on approving that host's future coop requests, but rather see it as a very conscientious host that has the best interest of the participants as their primary concern. I think that the Administrators can/should ask previous experienced coop hosts, by way of private email, if they would be willing to lend a hand to the over-committed host. I think you'd find a number of prior hosts willing to help out in any way they could (I know I would in a heartbeat). We've seen in a few coops where participants or onlookers have offered to help when they see a host struggling (a couple come to mind). So I think it's reasonable to assume that there are more than a few people that would willingly give aid.

I also think it would be a good idea if Terry and/or Dave would contact the organizer very early when warning signs are present in a coop thread of a possible problem. A simple "Do you need help?" would go a long way towards preventing some of the bashing that has occured recently in coops. It's probably appropriate at this point to remind everyone of the Coop Primer's "When Things Go Wrong" page.......

http://davesgarden.com/coop_primer/4/

I think if we all, organizers and participants, remember that one page of the Primer (which is very well written I think) then a lot of the wavering coops might get back on track quicker and without all the angry words being exchanged.

(sorry Terry....I think I must have stolen your soapbox! LOL)

Hear hear, Brenda. If anything illustrates the need for the coops to remain as they are, it is this thread, and the varied opinions expressed. Some people will argue with anything, and I don't want to even imagine the controversy once people tried to decide what would be appropriate
"compensation" for a host, and what "services" that entitled them to!

And the tax ID number I think Jazzpunkin meant, isn't an EIN, but a state sales tax number. The two are totally different. In any state I have done business in, (which actually is quite a few), a sales tax number is required if you are selling retail. I frequently buy and sell auto parts, but since I am selling them at no markup, so no sales tax reporting is required. I make profit on the installation of the items, which is a service, and in most states, not taxable.

I agree with Brenda 100%. But as to the "help" part I would like to add something here. I think it is important for the co-op organizer to arrange any needed LOCAL help before starting. I for one made sure my husband knew what I was up to and that I may need his help. This did end up entailing him shredding newspaper for about 3 hours straight. The other thing was I had help from 2 local DGers on packing day. They offered, I did not ask, but now that I know what I know I would ask (BEG) them for their help if I do another
co-op. I think a contengency plan is wise- what if you get hurt and physcially can't pack a bunch of boxes? What if you or a family member became very ill and you could not run the co-op alone? Life happens, but I think a reasonable back up plan for things like that is a good thing. No Chicken Little the sky is falling routines or anything, but I think y'all get my drift. If needed, I could have had my sisters, mother and husband pull together and get this dealt with if anything had happened to me.

Bottom line is you do need to plan ahead, ask experience co-op organizers for advice and suggestions, and COMMUNICATE! This does not mean you have to be on DG 15 times a day and answer all emails and posts within a certain time frame. But if you will be out of town on vacation, or for work, just a quick "I will be unable to be online for the next week, please email me any questions and I will get back with you as soon as I can." Or if you aren't inclined to be on DG all the time (but I would argue most of us who would host a co-op ARE on here all the time) just say so up front. Manage expectations is all. I didn't do anything spectacular on my co-op but everyone thought I was "all over it" because I communicate and communicate often. No one had to wonder where I was. Again, I CHOOSE to respond within 24 hours to any post or co-op related email. That is by no means a requirment. But I think making the participants feel comfortable that you are keeping up, and letting them know what's up with you does help. And personal details aren't necessary either. Just a "I'm around, I'm keeping up, I am just really busy so I can't get back to everyone immediately" is fine!

Ok, enough of that. Too many of us on the soapbox!

But Brenda, I disagree with you about the profit. I expected to make a KILLING off this! Ha! Just kidding. :)