IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Regarding group purchases (Co-ops)

This morning we updated the Acceptable Use Policy of Dave's Garden at add a paragraph 8:

Dave - I was pondering the coop situation the other night after the latest round of problems. I was trying to remember if the coop application that is submitted has anything about confirming that as the coop host you have NO AFFILIATION with the plant supplier. I think it would be a good idea to add that to the application. Maybe it doesn't prevent someone from being deceptive, but at least if it is determined later that they are the "owner" or "representative" of the plant supplier then there is grounds for banning them from DG.

Maybe that's overkill but thought I might post it as a suggestion.

So Dave, what you're saying is that no one should even put out "feelers" on another forum to see if there is any interest in a particular co-op? If so, that's fine, but I just wanted to make sure.

Even "feelers" should be run past us first (use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page of the site.) That way, there's no chance that an innocent "feeler" suddenly snowballs into firm commitments to participants and a vendor, which leaves us in the untenable position of choosing between being compelled to approve a co-op after-the-fact or leaving the organizer holding the bag for a huge order.

Personally, I would love to see MORE co-ops, especially smaller (limited varieties and/or limited to just a few participants.) The financial risk and pressure is MUCH lower for everyone, and they tend to go fast and smoothly. More co-ops would also spread out the demand - if people knew that another co-op was likely to come along soon, they wouldn't necessarily try to all crowd onto one purchase.

I hope everyone takes Dave's message very seriously, but I also hope it doesn't scare people away from trying their hand at a co-op. Just run it past us first ;o)

good idea - if they don't like it they can keep it within their own personal (not Dave's) emails. I've seen so many problems with this - and most not intentional, but things happen. It is also "at your own risk." I've not been burned, just know and saw it happened. Good job Dave.

Dave & Terry, Thanx, have not at this point been involved in, much less tried too start a "co-op" project, however can see it's economic values/deficenies, and it is nice to know that you are trying to do everything possible to both look out for your members and avoid strife within the community.

Again - Thank You.

I did a small co-op last year and it worked out. We all ordered the same thing and there was only 6 of us. But I like the structure of the co-op application because I was floundering around a bit not knowing how to do a co-op.
Is it taboo to buy from a member that has an affiliation/ownership of a nursery or garden center?

This message was edited Apr 16, 2005 4:31 AM

woodspirit, we have many DG subscribers and members here who also own nurseries/mailorder businesses. As an individual, you can spend your money with whoever you wish.

It is not permitted for a business owner to use our forums or email to try to rustle up sales; it is also not permitted for a business owner/DG member to organize a co-op (there are a few exceptions, but they are rare and we review the circumstances very thoroughly before giving the nod.) It's also not okay for a vendor (whether or not they subscribe to DG) to approach a DG member and ask them to organize a co-op and use them as the supplier. Ideally co-op vendors are chosen by the organizer because the organizer thinks they're the best fit, not the other way around, with a vendor looking for someone to "shill" for them.

OIC, thanks.

Thanks Dave and Terry! I have participated in a couple of co-ops so far and LOVE the deals. Thanks for taking steps to protect all of us!

Great job Dave-I wasnt in the co-op that went sour but I did follow it. what a shame-I hope all the plants grow for everyone!

I also would like to add that we should keep the chit chat down on the co-op threads, there are plenty of forums to use for yaking! ;) Also plenty of instant messages we can use! :)

I like to follow the co-op's that Im in for in updated NEWS and to say thanks when the plants arrive!

More co-ops spread out-oh my oh my.

Hey. Is that a shot at my co-op? :-)

I really did try to keep the chit chat to a minimum, but it usually won't work that way, especially if MSJen and JanetOS are in it. You just can't stop 'em. That's why I had to fire them.

Seriously though, I do understand some not wanting to wade through all of that, but these are hard work, and seeing the banter take a fun little side street, sure adds to the co-op experience for me. Especially the ones that I'm hosting. Maybe we could make chit chat up to the host, and then people know going into it, that it may be a long and windy.

Either way, I'll still host the occaisional co-op when time and cicrcumstances allow, but would miss the banter of those involved.

Chris

Hey Chris- I do see your point and I do agree... however, I bet that, like me, you have a fast connection at home and/or work. :) A pretty large number of DGers have dial-up so it makes it very difficult for them to follow the thread of a co-op they have ordered from and just keep up on the status of things when a 500 post thread is trying to download. Especially if people start adding pictures!

On my daylily co-op I just added a post that gave the link to a new thread in the daylily forum that showed pictures from the packing party and allowed for the banter we all agree is so much fun. But it also makes it easy for my participants to stay up to date on co-op relevant issues in my actual co-op thread.

FYI- I also took it upon myself to start a thread for Brenda's dahlia co-op since folks are apparently getting sprouts now and will naturally want to chit chat and share pictures. And I for one really want to see pictures of all those blooms! :)

Anyway, maybe you could start a thread in the bulbs co-op where we could shoot the breeze about our caladiums... or even to raz you about this whirl wind romance you're having!!! :) :):)

Jamie

Jamie,

That's a fabulous idea. Do you mind if I take credit for it?

I'm going to go do that right now.

Chris

Can you even have trademark or copyright infringement on such an idea? :)

lol - unfortunately you can't trademark (or make money off of) ideas - see the copyright info they have on the internet for that. But hey - wish we could! I have come up with some myself, but they weren't useable. I am thinking, however, about making a video to go on info-mercials soon, for exercise (toning and for reducing back and neck pain). Getting it started is the problem - I spend too much time mothering my plants than get on the horn and do it.

I have not made any comments since 4/12....please keep me out of this. If its not directly related to my order, please keep me out of it.

Must admit that we are now such a big family, there are a lot of long threads that would be enjoyable to read but are just too long.

The Co-op Host could have a clean thread that no one can post on except him/her. Take orders and shoot the breeze on one thread - first post on the clean thread would have a link to the chatty ~ ordering thread. It is simple to copy orders from one thread and paste them to the other one.

When Eyes had a lot of unclaimed cannas, I didn't catch it because I thought it was over. If she had a clean thread she could have posted the update there and I might have seen it.

It's not even fun to scroll back up through months of posts to see if she marked you Paid and you are assured she received the money.

And it would be too much work for her to have to email receipt of the money. Some of those emails bounce for various reasons.

It has even been difficult to wade through the thread to determine if she had shipped mine yet.

IMHO

Dave,
I was just wondering if you might add by participating in a co-op, you are entering into a contract to purchase? I know things happen but it is hard for me to believe it happens to the tune of 960 cannas. And maybe their membership depends on completeing their purchase from the co-op good.

Would it be possible for the members reason for not following thru go thru you or Terry to decide if it is a feasible reason?

Just my 2 cents.
Sandy ^8^

I think Sandy ^8^ has a great idea. To me, there are very few reasons for not following thru with a purchase once you have said you will do so. Perhaps a notice to that effect should be automatically posted to each new co-op.

Good thinking Sandy^8^. Dotti

Just adding my 2 cents in support of Sandy's idea and Dotti's agreement with the idea. There probably are one or two good reasons for not following through, but that's all. People always get so upset at the idea of an irresponsible co-op organizer or supplier, but the members also have to act responsibly.

I think it's helpful when the organizer of a co-op keeps the first post in the thread updated with the vitals such as who's ordered, who's paid, whether someone's had to drop out, quantity shipped, etc. That way, the organizer (who presumably has to keep up on stuff, anyway) can have the pertinant info ready in one easily-read post.

I like having the first post as the rules, price, etc. the second post as a 'Notices' block and the third as the 'Paid' and here's why...

There's always going to be at least oneperson that will say, 'but it said such and such before' after you've changed something in the rules. If you're adding 'Notices' or 'Paid' info to the 'Rules' block there's no way to say, "The rules have always been like this". But add your infor in other blocks and leave the rules alone and there's no question about it.

Also, I hate having to dig around in posts to extract needed info. If the 'Notices' are in one block and the 'Paid' in another then all I have to do is give a quick look at the 'Edited' date of the 'Notices' block to see if anythings changed. Have them in with the 'Paid' and you'd have to re-read the better part of the post to make sure you're up to date on any important info you might need.

Personally, I'm thrilled the new rule of only orders being posted has been implemented! It can be an absolute nightmare searching through posts trying to find orders!!

Thanks, Dave & Terry!

Sometimes the organizer is not the first to post. The initial thread starter in a coop is automatically generated when the application is approved and is taken from info on the application. If the coop starts at 12:01am on a given date then often someone other than the organizer is the first poster.

I *do* agree that having all the info in the top post is nice. Or at least the 2nd post.


Edited to change "thread" to "post"

This message was edited May 3, 2005 8:41 AM

Donna was the organizer of the only co-op in which I have participated, and she did a fabulous job, in my opinion, so I think her advice and suggestions are valuable. It was very easy to find the pertinent information in her thread until some people started using the thread to complain about this and that. I also noticed that a lot of people kept changing their orders or pulling out altogether, and there really do need to be some stricter rules against this. Otherwise, the organizers could get completely discouraged (or go mad) and choose never to perform this service again.

I know I am not capable of doing a Co-op, so you never have to worry about me. I know my limitations, and most of it is "time" - the rest is "physical". As much as I'd love to do one, I know I would be in big trouble once the plants arrived.

I think that is something people should think about before they try to start one.

They get BIG and they do it FAST, and then it is your responsibility to make sure everyone get's what they have within a reasonable amount of time so that they live. (who wants to send dead plants?)

I honour the people who have done it successfully. I know by looking at the threads it is alot of hard work.

I also think the less the chitter chatter on the main thread, the better - perhaps start a new one for the recipients.

"-)

Karrie (like my eyelashes?)

We have some pretty clear guidelines for co-op participants and organizers regarding money - who's responsible, and the ramifications for not holding up your end of the bargain.

The bottom line is that DG is simply the meeting place for people who agree to pool their resources and cooperate on a group purchase. We can only do so much to ensure that everyone is financially protected. IMO, more rules will serve only to punish the rule-followers who have to jump through more hoops.

Those who choose to shirk their responsibility (whether organizer or participant) will do it regardless of the consequences.

I've done several co-ops, and one thing I learned early on is - whenever possible - schedule the co-op so that ALL monies are in hand before you place the order. That way, there are no orphan plants waiting on someone to pay for them. (I've had people come back MONTHS after the orders shipped, wanting to know if they could still arrange to get their unpaid-for plants. You know the saying - fool me once...)

Since there is also a fiduciary responsibility assumed by the organizer, I also encourage hosts to hold off on cashing the checks and money orders until it's time to pay for the order (and most of the time, that's immediately prior to the plants being shipped.) That way, if anything goes wrong (plants can't be shipped, organizer has something major come up and has to back out) it's MUCH easier to issue reimbursements, since most of them are as simple as shredding the uncashed checks with the participant's approval.

I still maintain that smaller co-ops (and more of them) is the way to go. That way, if one co-op DOES go bad, the participants risk about as much as they might on a plant trade with another member. It also puts a lot less pressure on an organizer if they can limit a co-op to a handful of people and a limited number of choices, rather than allowing too many participants and choices to avoid disappointing anyone.

Terry, I totally understand everything you've said, but I have one question about cashing the checks right before paying for the order. What if the check bounces? With my bank, I get charged with a fee, as well as the check writer. Has that ever happened to you as a coop organizer?

knock on wood, I've never had a check bounce. (I know I'm probably jinxing my good fortune by saying that... ;o) I don't know if anyone else has experienced that problem.

You can get around that by using PayPal if you want to. (I don't because I just don't want to fool with the additional fees, etc.)

I never send a personal check, a Money Order can be had for .39 cents, and they never bounce. Also a stranger doesn't have my personal account # etc. Just my quirk.
sidney

Yes, if someone writes you a back check, your bank charges YOU around $15. Crazy, but that's the way it works.

dave

*raising hand*

I can speak to the bounced checks, I've had 2, in one case the person was very kind, and had been having problems with switching to a new bank or something, but that person immediately sent the funds to cover the check and the fees my bank charged. In the other case, luckily I had deposited the checks with enough time to cancel their order. FWIW my bank charges MORE for a check written to me that is no good than they would if I wrote a check that is no good.

I always liked depositing the checks a couple of weeks a head of time. This time I didn't do that, and deposited them a few days before the order was paid for.... mainly because of everything I'd read here and in other spots. But, I prefer to have a few weeks to know that everything is ok with the checks.

I've had one vendor that required me to put 20% down in order to "hold" orders as they came in.

I also agree (because of experience) that the co ops should be limited in the amount of participants and or quantity , and I've given that advice to countless people who have endeavored to take on a co op....

I've mentioned a volunteer "mentor" before... and any time someone I'm accquainted with has mentioned doing a co op, I've given them as much advice as I could... sometimes unsolicited... but little tips, about labeling, postage labels, markers that don't fade, etc. can be useful information that you don't always think about unless you've done a co op. I've shared my spreadsheet, address labels, website-- anything that I thought would help a co op newbie....

Something I think folks need to remember---that when some plant vendors cut their prices dramatically for a co op purchase you're not always going to get the biggest and the brightest plant.... in many cases you might be getting end of season leftovers, or plants that for whatever reason, the vendor didn't want to sell to the general public, and you need to bear that in mind when you order.


I'm getting really long I know... but I agree with whoever said above that sometimes the organizer isn't online when the co op is released. If everyone would WAIT to post until after the organizer has posted that would be helpful. As Donna commented above, the first post should remain un- altered... that way no one can say "you changed the rules" But leave the first 2 or 3 threads AFTER the initial post for the organizer to up date, post paid statuses, etc. that way if the threads do get really long, you won't mind so much because all the pertinent information is in the top 3 or 4 threads. The chatter on the co op threads doesn't bother me. I prefer to have everything in one spot, but I know it does bother some.

My only other comment, is that it seems like the most problems have come when there are really long periods of time between co op beginning to the delivery... if a company is willing to do a co op, but only do spring delivery... do we really need the co op to start in the fall? I don't know... that is why I'm asking.


My quarter's worth on the subject.

I agree with what everyone has said so far- just one comment/question/suggestion about the 2nd and 3rd blocks after the opening co-op post. Would it be possible for DG admin to simulaneously post THREE threads when starting the co-op? For instance, the first post that comes from the application would be released as usual, but two more posts would be directly under it as if it is from the organizer (just like the opening thread comes up as if the organizer started the thread). If there has to be text in them it could just say "reserved for so and so." Of course with "so and so" being the organizer. :) Just a thought. Maybe too much of a hassle but it would stop the problem that I had. Which was my thread started at 12:01am I guess, and at 9am I logged on to see how things were going and I had like 15 orders already! :)

It would be a programming issue for Dave. When a thread is launched on a schedule, there's a pretty good chance neither Dave or I are around when it goes live. (At least I'm not usually on at midnight ;o)

Secondly, if it happened to be launched during daylight hours and I immediately started three empty posts to "reserve" the space, the co-op organizer couldn't access those posts as they would be "mine."

Oooooh. I thought the organizer would be able to access it just like they can access that "launch" post you use to start the thread. If it could be programmed to do that automatically- start 2 extras we CAN access that is- that would be cool. Maybe to much work for Dave though... anyway, just a thought!

Back to the original topic...I see the co-ops as one of the biggest attractions to DG. I joined last year and it seemed like there was always a co-op or two in swing. Maybe it is just a spring versus fall thing, but when I stop by the co-op forum now about all I see are a bunch of "closed" signs. The few that pop up seem to attract a feeding frenzy.

It just seems hard for me to believe that people will be able to organize co-ops without sending out feeler questions. Maybe experienced co-op managers know of suppliers and know how to come up with a list of plants for the co-op, but will new organizers be able to do this? It just seems that if nobody talks about co-ops then they will never happen.

I do understand that this is a tricky subject.

- Brent

Feelers are fine - just let us know first. (almost an alliteration there....) In all seriousness, we've had some "feelers" that snowballed into a co-op without us knowing anything about them until the train had left the station. Fortunately, they seem to have gone off without any major problems, but if we had felt it would be in the best interests of everyone to not approve a particular co-op organizer, it would leave us with a huge mess to mop up, and a lot of hard feelings all around.

We've had several people email us about whether a particular co-op would be a good idea...most of the time we encourage it, a few times we haven't. I'm hopeful those we've encouraged will proceed with initiating their co-op.

I think coops are terrific, in spite of being in the middle of one at the moment. I agree, we need more! I did my own research each time, first in the coop thread, to see who has used what supplier before, and second, through google for a plant that interested me. Like with the heuchera, it certainly pays to eliminate the middle man, because I contacted a wholesalers "authorized distributor" and the plants I've gotten through the wholesaler for $2-3, they would have given me at a 'discount' of $8-10.

But a smaller coop isn't that hard to do. It requires a decent tracking system. A good excel spreadsheet works beautifully. I know several people on DG have offered to share the ones they created. And it requires the time to sort, package and mail. And it requires communication.

I like paypal, it's fast, doesn't require that I have access to someone's checking account info, and doesn't get lost in the mail. Fortunately, I've not had a check bounce, but I've had several that were 'sent' and never arrived here. I've also received postdated checks, which are NOT cool.

I didn't do great at my first coop, but I learned from it, and everyone who participated was patient and kind, so I'll do better at this one. And better yet at future ones. This is a great feature of DG. We need more!

Here is a thought..... I *don't* want to ask for a new forum... but it might be the easiest way...
a sticky at the top of the co op forum, or a separate forum for pre co op discussion/questions/requests/feelers?

That way, if someone in iris is thinking about a co op, they can go there and post (after approval of course) and everyone will know to look in that specific spot and chime in on the discussion if they wish.... someone who normally hangs out in Tropicals might like iris, but rarely look at the iris forum.....

I'd love for someone to do a co op with Great Mountain again.... I personally don't want to mess with pots o plants, if it's not a dry root or bulb, I want no part of it personally.... but if we had such a place... there might be enough people who are also interested in a similar co op, that someone who is wanting to try a co op could get ideas from that, or a veteran might decide that enough interest warrants checking it out and doing one.... it might help to spark more co ops

Just a thought.

"if a company is willing to do a co op, but only do spring delivery... do we really need the co op to start in the fall?"

I started the hibiscus co-op late last year because it shipments started almost on the heels of Christmas. I don't know about anyone else, but when I want to make a large purchase I like to have a month or so to gather the money so it's not such a hit to my wallet.(Some of the orders were well over $100, mine included.) Coming that close after Christmas, I felt a bit of time was necessary to make choices and then to get the funds together.

It also gave me time to receive funds, run checks through the bank in plenty of time to see if they were good, post the 'Final' orders and tally them up, then get a check to her before the first shipping date.

For me 3 months, with several holidays added in, was a perfect amount to time. Without holidays I still would have asked for a 2 month head start on the first shipping date.

And I would have never done the March and April shipments in the hibiscus co-op had I not been able to do them all together. Trying to co-ordinate 3 co-op threads simultaneously would have driven me straight over the edge!

One thing I wish participants understood completely - we as co-op coordinators get nothing from doing a co-op except the opportunity to take part and the cudos that come along the way. We get no pay, no free plants, etc. And sometimes it even winds up costing us. (I had to pay the shipping on someone's plants because I let them piggy back their order after the fact. The provider didn't catch the adjustment in the order and I had to pay for the additional shipping charges.)

But I've had people talk ugly to me and about me because I'm not online every single day, throughout the day, transcribing orders. (A practice that caused the above named problem in the first place.) I was treated like this was my job and I needed to be catering to all 'my' customers.

I'd like to think that if everyone understood the true ins-and-outs of being a co-op 'leader' opinions and remarks might be a bit more charitable.