Cats in my Garden

Every day I shoo cats out of my garden, They hide under the plants waiting for the birds who are feasting on the seeds plus catching them while the birds are bathing. I see piles of feathers of all kinds of birds, Mourning Doves, Cat Birds, Cardinals etc. What can I do to get rid of these killers short of being one myself.
Maria

I read that cats don't like the smell of coffee ground. Coffee ground gets rid of slugs and snails as well.

Thank you, Drop, I 'll be out there every morning with my coffee grounds!
Maria

If you want to get rid of the cats AND have some top-notch entertainment, perhaps you could install one of these motion-activated sprinklers. http://www.biconet.com/critter/sprinkler.html (that site's worth a look if for nothing else than the HORRIBLE re-touched photos, LOL).

They emit a quick spray of water and don't use much water. Can't you just see the spectacle? Spritz! Mrrrrow!!!!

Water spritz LOL except for our kitty. Here is what we did: after we had no cat for 2 years, the neighbor's abandoned garage had become home to at least 7 ferals. We finally decided to get traps and "remove" (we took them wayyyy out into the country) 6 of them and kept one female who appeared the most frightened rather than aggressive when caught. She appeared grown but not adult (we guess 9 months). Anyway, Bootsie is now the queen of the garden. No ferals allowed in her territory, and the birds have to watch out for only one killer. Bootsie still kills even though she is fed well, but probably less than 7 ferals would. I can't think of another solution. By the way: Bootsie loves water and gladly goes outside even in the middle of pouring rain.

Tell me you don't mean you trapped them and just dumped them in the country, Knees. I am mis-interpreting what you wrote, right?

Gardenwife. I am afraid you are reading right. Yes. The other option would have been to take them to the pound. And you know what happens there. There were feral cats, born feral, and would never be tame to be adopted. They have never known canned food and feeding time. They will or will not survive where they "moved" to. At the pound we were told that they would find certain extermination at drop off. Did you know of a better solution? I may find myself in a similar situation again. I just couldn't make myself have them all killed.

The killer cat next door has a necklace of bells. She does manage to get one or two birds on occasion, but nothing like she once did. You can only do this with your own cat, unless you give some as presents to your neighbors.

I struggle with an answer to that, knees. On the one hand, I'd hate to see them not survive and die a death of starvation, exposure or predation -- but on the other, I'd not want them dying at the pound, either. At least at the pound, they'd have a chance at adoption and their death would be (relatively) swift and painless were they to be euthanized. Again, I say I struggle with an answer - there are seldom any easy ones.

Thanks for your compassionate response to my answer. Yes, quick euthanision seems "human." But a wild animal's life is a struggle, and maybe it is just as human to let them life that wild life. Neither of these cats was adotable via the pound. We took the adoption chance with Bootsie ourselves. The idea with the bells is a good one. However not doable with Bootsie. She is very, very smoochie, but only at her terms. She will now (after more than a year) sit on my lap, but still not let me pick her up. We just talked about how to manage to get her to the vet for shots. PS: if I knew how to post a pix here, I'd send one of a cat at total relaxation and appreciation of her new life. :>))

Try adding elements to your garden to attract birds naturally, and stop feeding them seed. Bird feeders attract many birds to one specific area which makes them easy prey for cats.

I suggest putting dried blackberry brambles in you garden. It keeps those alley buzzards out of mine. Make sure you wear thick gloves and that the plants are dried. I break them down to about 1 foot long and mulch around my plant and seedlings with them. Also the herb Ruta graveolens (Rutaceae).It's nickname is "Kitty Scat plant".Apparently they can't stand the smell. I've never noticed it myself.

Great idead bagpypr...my parents have a major cat problem and these ideas are wonderful!

I've never heard that Ruta is a cat-repellant, but here is one reference that bears out bagpypr's comments: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yyk_Eqgyn3AJ:archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2001/03/25/story303730.asp+ruta+scat+plant&hl=en

However, you do need to be careful if you plant it where you'll brush against it. It contains oils that can cause major skin photosensitivity. (think big-time sunburn): http://davesgarden.com/pdb/go/312/index.html

Here's another plant with alleged cat-repellant properties: http://davesgarden.com/pdb/go/76035/index.html

I hate to say this but cats are not wild life here in the US. They eat North American wildlife. I can certainly appreciate not wanting the pound to pick them up yet on the other hand, I feel horrible for the cats that were released as I am relatively confident that at least one or two will ultimately meet a gruesome demise. There are many ways these animals may meet their demise and several were mentioned by Gardenwife. Others not mentioned by her would be ending up as road pancakes, torn apart by farm equipment such as conveyor belts, and being poisoned by barbaric people who don't appreciate inheriting the problems of another. Another barbaric tool used by some people is jaw traps, I have no words. I have heard of people who sic their dogs on cats and encourage them to savagely rip apart cats that get into their yards- sick. Some humans can be incredibly intolerant and unwilling to separate the cat from the behavior regardless of whether it is a feral or a stray. Bottom line is that cats are hardwired to kill. On their continent of origin which is Africa, there were checks and balances that kept their numbers in balance. We don't seem to have those here in numbers high enough to reduce the toll cats take on the environment.

Oher issues often not included in the mix when these issues arise do exist. There are many species of actual North American wildlife capable of contracting feline viruses. Those feral cats were most assuredly not vaccinated for anything so their release into a new area will now expose local wildlife inhabitants to new strains of viruses and diseases. It is also doubtful they were spayed or neutered so an entire colony of ferals could conceivably manifest itself.

Sadly; I also feel for the birds, chipmunks, squirrels, moles, raccoons, skunks, frogs, opossums, and countless other critters that will die senseless and very brutal deaths because of repeated releases of feral cats into their habitats.

I use a HavAHart trap and I do call animal control to pick up the cats I trap that are ferals. I am well aware that these animals will be euthanized as people aren't exactly standing in line to adopt the millions that are already socialized being warehoued waiting for homes. Strays that I trap are taken by me to a local animal shelter and I pay the fee personally to get them in. From there they are spayed/neutered, de-loused, vetted, and held for 10 days before they are placed on the floor where they will hopefully be adopted to families. One time my heart strings were so torn that I actually went back and paid to adopt one that I had paid to get in. It's a sad plight we are in and there is no easy answer.

Above anything else, I am a proponent of spay neuter because it reduces the sheer numbers of cats out there being exposed to atrocities. I suspect 99%+ of the subscribers at DG who have cats have them spayed and neutered.

For those who may be lurking and reading here who poison cats because it is cheaper than investing in a trap, please consider the horrible death the cats will die and also please consider that any animal coming across the dead cat that eats it will also die. That could be a Vulture or a coyote or any number of species. All I ask is that you try to separate the cats from the behavior.

http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/A27861.htm
Added benefits to using a trap would be that one could release native species.

knees and anyone who has a problem with feral cats......

Please do the right thing, the humane thing when you see feral cats in your neighborhood. Call a rescue group, a vet, or a shelter to get information as to whom you can contact for helping the cats if you are unable to be a feral caretaker. Many communities have an individual or group who manages one or more feral colonies. Organizations and vets know, or know of these people because of the community service they provide. Some shelters and rescue groups give out free or low-cost spay/neuter coupons to feral workers. Some vets provide low cost services for feral cats. Don't let these cats suffer from illnesses, wounds and deadly diseases, slowly dying of hunger, and continuous breeding. Seek assistance for them. Susie Bachman, President


The rescue group near you knees is Paw Prints and Purrs, located in Washington DC. Call them and tell them where you dropped off the cats, they will take care of them by T-N-V-R.
Here is their link....... http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/ferals.html

I had cats that liked to sit in my garden. I solved the problem when I planted plastic silverware where they liked to lay. That's right, stick forks or knives, handle down about 6 inches apart into the soil. You'll not only discourage cats and dogs but your friends will want to know why you planted silverware! After the plants can grow tall the silverware is not noticeable.

With my luck, I'd impale my hand or foot on a fork! LOL

Great idea barbur!

I HAVE TO CLEAR MY KITTY'S REPUTATION. We had sadly accepted that cats do hunt and kill birds and just didn't know what to do next. By the way, I will do the knive an fork thing! Great Idea. BUT, the piles of feathers we were finding every 3 or so days are NOT from our kitten's efforts. We noticed that a hawk is making himself at home in our neighborhood. We live 2 miles from downtown DC; straight city living with some garden space and YES, a hawk. We see him on top of the now bare trees, we saw him hit and we now often see him sit and and enjoy his meal. We do not enjoy watching him. He will claw his meal and move if we distrub him by opening our deck door. And yesterday I had a hawk land on the sidwalk, in a busy suburban street (Wheaton, MD). He flew right in front of me and landed about 10 feet to the right on a low hedge next to the sidewalk. I thought it was a pidgeon until I saw him only 10 feet clearly sitting there. It's our fault for encroachig on his corn fields and meadows.

Our Red Shouldered Hawks are quite adept at snatching pigeons and mourning doves mid air. One in particular is also quite good at grabbing squirrels and we once saw him grab a small cat that we thought might have been an older kitten. We have watched them all fly up a few hundred yards to release furry prey which then falls to its death on the ground. They then fly down to a tree to land and from there they drop to the ground to retrieve their meal which will be devoured rapidly if they aren't disturbed. If startled, they lift off with their catch to eat elsewhere. Birds of Prey are truly magnificent animals although I must admit I do not particularly enjoy watching them eat excepting Turkey Vultures which we routinely feed when they migrate back to our area in the spring. Turkey Vultures are our favorite although the Great Horned Owl we had hanging around here for a while was a close second. He was repeatedly chased off by crows for some reason and finally must have moved on to a more peaceful area... with less crows to annoy him.

I was driving in town yesterday and saw quite the arial display as a hawk persued a pigeon in mid-air. They were only 8' or so above the sidewalk, and each was doing its darnedest to outmaneuver the other. It really was fascinating. I have my favorite songbirds, but am also thrilled to see hawks. I don't mind seeing wild birds doing what is natural for them to do...I think it's pretty awesome. The presence of such birds of prey is one more reason outdoor cats are at risk. Ours are happy to bask in the sunlight streaming through the window and have their every need catered too, LOL.

Turkey vultures really are cool birds. Man, they're BIG!

I'm not being argumentative, but I read on the Alley Cat Allies website that a study was done about the decline in bird population. They found that the cause of this decline is loss of habitat. In other words, cats have long been blamed for something that we caused ourselves. Just something to think about.

Aria, when I mulched my garden, the cats no longer wanted to dig, so they stayed out of it. They walk across it now and then, but they don't linger. Maybe that could also work for you. Please, don't harm the cat if there's any other way. The fork idea sound reasonable, and also the sprinkler. They may not come around if they are afraid they might get sprayed. Also, you might try spreading out your feeders so that a large group of birds isn't always available to the cats. I'm so sorry you are faced with such a hard dilemma. Not wanting the birds to die, but not wanting to harm the cats.

To a greater extent then most will care to agree, you are correct. We are blaming cats for something that we ourselves have done.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats.html

http://www.ctaudubon.org/nature/cats.htm

http://www.dnr.state.co.us/cdnr_news/wildlife/1998615123232.html

http://www.lcshelter.com/cat%20predation%20on%20birds.htm

http://www.njaudubon.org/conservation/yesyou.html

The Alley Cat study failed to include scientific data from a multitude of sources. One thing to keep in mind is that habitat is critical mass. When an exotic invasive species is introduced and little or no substantive efforts are made to control, manage, and eradicate the species; the habitat is truly compromised.

Hello to everyone. After I'd written my post, I worried about how it might be taken by others. I've worried all day that I might have hurt aria's or someone elses feelings. If I did, I'm so sorry. My intention is never to hurt people. I just love cats so much, and I wanted to address some of the popular misundertandings about cats and birds. I'm sorry if I hurt any feelings. I know that aria is not going to hurt the cats, so I shouldn't have said that.

Please, aria, accept my apology if I offended you. I'm very sorry.
Jennifer

Hi Jennifer, pretty much everyone from animal shelters, wildlife societies, and conservation circles has seen their web site. The animal shelter I work with cringes when they get people calling them about some of the information contained at that site. I love cats too. I have 8 indoor only cats that were all former strays. I also have dogs that were former strays. I love the wildlfife that frequents my property too.

If you don't mind my asking, what do you believe to be some of the popular misunderstandings?

The one that saddens me most is that people think trapping them and killing them is the way to contol the population. Also, some people think that it's ok to abandon them, because cats are independant, and can take care of themselves. Also that what cats do is for meanness, when they're simply being cats.
I haven't read these, by the way, I live in a town that has a very archaic attitude toward animals. They don't spay or neuter, then they cast them out after the cuteness of kittenhood has worn off. These cats become wild, and feral colonies are started. Then out animal has the nerve to blame the people who have a caring heart and feed them, instead of the person who cast them aside. I'm in the process of spaying/neutering my colony. Lucky for me, all my neighbors feed and love them, so I don't have to worry about someone calling the pound.

I also want to add that I've had 16 of my feral cats spay/neutered, and would not have been able to do this if it wasn't for the valuable information, and list of organizations on the Alley Cat Site.

I'm not trying to make aria feel bad, and I'm afraid I have. Please, aria, say something. I'm really sorry.

She's in California visiting her son and his family -- she may not get to catch up on all her threads while gone, Jenn.

Oh thank you for letting me know, GW. I was afraid I'd hurt her feelings, and she didn't want to talk to me. (whew!)

Jennifer- you are so sweet! I was in your shoes about 9 years ago I guess. I had just started doing TNR with all the cats abandoned in my apartment complex when tenants would move. And there were LOTS of them. I just didn't know there was a name for what I was doing or even about Alley Cat Allies. Oddly enough, I even had the vet at the low cost spay neuter place nip their ears so I could tell them apart (spayed vs not spayed). Then when I finally heard about ACA and read that, I laughed out loud.

Now, all these years later, I guess you can say I'm jaded a bit. I went from that to volunteering with a rescue group, fostering animals, and it just snowballed. Because of the things I have witnessed, I am just not apologetic anymore. I sincerely do not care if something makes someone mad or hurts their feelings, IF I know that what I said is the truth and what they are doing is contributing to the problem. I mean, read that rescue thread I started under this forum a couple of months ago and you will see what I mean! That's not to say I like to offend people or go out of my way to do so. And I do try my best to be tactful, but it just isn't top priority to me. The animals are. But I am aware that being too abrasive solves nothing and just alienates the person. And I know you did not mean to hurt or offend Maria and I don't think she took it that way!

One thing not mentioned here is that shooting or poisoning cats and dogs in most communities is not even legal. Also, there is no need to "invest" in a trap in most instances. Shelters and even animal control will normally let you borrow a trap if you put down a small deposit. You bring the trap back and get your money back. I do love how we call it "nature" when a tiger kills a zebra, or predator birds kill smaller birds, or even when a dog attacks a cat. But boy let a cat kill a bird and we all freak out on them. I agree, Maria's problem goes back to the people who dumped the cats to begin with. The cats suffered, and Maria suffered, but the irresponsible person did NOT suffer. Honestly, I have found that most people aren't cruel. Just ignorant. And sometimes they are ignorant AND stubborn which is a bad combination! :)

Maria- in the future, if this happens again, would you consider doing a TNR thing? Meaning you just trap the cat(s), have them "fixed" and get their shots, then release them back to where you found them. If you can't keep them on your property for some reason, if you contact a rescue group who does TNR, they are often willing to relocate the cats on your property to one of their own managed colonies. Oh, and to clarify I did not mean to imply you were in either the cruel OR ignorant category!!! LOL!

Jamie

Sadly, many Spay & Release programs have been too successful. It would appear they do not reduce the feral cat populations as was once believed. I am no longer a proponent of S&R/TNR practices as I deem them to be cruel and inhumane as the sheer number of feral cats exposed to atrocities is increasing NOT decreasing.

http://www.indianriveraudubon.org/limpkin/040501Limpkin/TrapNeuterRelease.html

I believe in the years to come we will see TNR practices falling from grace as it becomes increasingly more pc to protect species indigenous to North America-

www.law.ufl.edu/conservation/projects/projects_u_feralcats.shtml

Interesting articles Equ. I don't know the right answer, and don't want to be argumentative, but to me, bottom line is exterminating cats like one would do rodents and bugs is not acceptable. TNR may not be perfect, and there may well be a legit concern from wildlife preservationist that needs to be addressed. Complete closed mindedness from the pro-TNR community is also not acceptable, IMO, and I agree that a common ground needs to be met.

In my experience with TNR, one thing I do agree with is it seems a good deal of the time, the TNR people "managing" these colonies seem to forget one HUGE aspect of a true TNR program. And that is the part where TAME cats are not to be released back. They should be put up for adoption. What I like about one of those articles is they did seem to distinguish between a shelter and a sanctuary. In a perfect scenario, every community would have a sanctuary like Best Friends to use as the "R" location in a TNR program. The other thing I have always had questions about is where they claim a TNR managed colony will prevent other ferals from coming in to the territory. Not true in my experience. If there is a food source, and more stray cats are introduced to the area, your colony will grow. But at least it isn't by new births.

In my urban neighborhood 5 miles from downtown, we had a huge stray and feral cat problem (recognizing that stray and feral are not the same). I bought my house in June 2002 and was stunned by the sheer number of cats roaming around. My neighbor 2 doors down had at least 40 or 50 that she fed and did not "fix." On the corner it was the same situation. I know those cats were all related b/c there were about 20 black and white cats in the side yard at any given time. Our neighborhood president contacted Kittyco and they started a TNR program. My neighbor now has about 5 ferals she feeds- all "fixed." She watches them for signs of illness, feeds them, and they have a nice shelter in her backyard. The tame cats she was feeding were all taken by Kittyco and placed for adoption. Same thing with the black and white brigade on the corner- there are only 3 of them now. Kittyco only released the truly feral ones back to our neighborhood and did not euthanize a single one that was considered adoptable. So I have to disagree that TNR is a bad idea in general. I do think it should be done a bit more responsibly. But rounding them up and killing them isn't the answer either. As for the birds and other squirrels- my figs are still stolen and my bulbs dug up at record pace, so I don't what the impact there was, if any. Ha!

Here is my overall issue. The problem needs to be stopped at the source. Even feral cats didn't get there magically. Each and every one was the product of HUMAN irresponsibly in the area of pet ownership. We need laws and they need to be enforced. A good for instance here- when I lived in Georgia, it clearly stated that it was a crime (misdemeanor) to abandon a domestic pet. I am not sure but I think it was a city ordinance of some kind. But I do know it was illegal and "on the books" as such. So we are doing our adoptions at Petsmart and a woman brings in a cat. She said her neighbors moved out and left the cat, in its carrier, right there on the front porch. And they were GONE. U-Haul pulled away and the house was empty. That ship set sail and the cat wasn't in it. This woman had their name and knew where they had moved to- same town even. We gave this info to animal control and the police who all agreed the law was broken. All they had to do was issue the citation. They had a name and address- no need to use police man hours to find them. But guess what? They did NOTHING. And I know this kind of thing happens all the time. Until we as a society hold people accountable and send a loud and clear message that such behavior is not acceptable, it won't stop. Every stray and feral cat came about from a human's failure to spay and neuter and/or take responsibility for the life of the pet they acquired- for the life of the pet. Until our society stops acquiring pets with the same amount of thought as we put into acquiring a pair of shoes, we will have strays, ferals, dead birds, animals being slaughtered in shelters, etc.

So that's my two cents! Sorry I get so fired up about it! :)

Jamie

You should have had them spayed or taken them to a no kill shelter.Cats aren't wild they have been domesticated by man.It would have been better to shoot them.Animal lover here sorry my feelings.

Jody,

Any domestic cat not handled by humans by the time they are about 7 weeks old will be feral, or "wild" even though they are still considered domestic cats. Have you ever trapped one? Let me tell you, those cages bounce around like crazy and the noises coming out of those cats don't sound earthly. You cannot simply adopt them into homes like normal cats. I have been with a no-kill for a while, and we do not take in ferals any longer. We do have a few from when the shelter first opened, but we can't have a bunch more like Honda and Sunshine who love each other, but won't come down from the rafters for us to pet them. Honda has been there since 1994. We have an open cat room so she isn't caged. Ten years and tons of humans (nice humans) later, she is still no more domestic than a tiger. Shelters are there to TEMORARILY house animals and then place them in homes. What ferals need is a sanctuary. But I do agree that dumping them off in the middle of nowhere and not making sure someone is at least leaving food for them isn't good. The whole situation is just sad. I'm an animal lover too and I understand about the intense feelings! Don't feel compelled to apologize- just my opinion. :)

Jamie

It comes down to personal choice and that can be highly volatile when discussed as emotions are involved which supercharges and tends to polarize issues. For me the choice became easier over time- I take the strays to a shelter and personally pay the fee to get them in while calling animal control to "exterminate" all ferals that I trap as to me, allowing cats to exterminate wildlife is just not acceptable any longer. It's either facilitate having the ferals that are dumped and reproducing over here humanely destroyed or watch the ferals systematically and methodically "exterminate" the wildlife. Feral cats are hardwired to kill, it truly is not their fault. I might have stuck with the Spay and Release program were it not for the fact that I can not find one such program around here that makes any attempt to re-trap feral cats to provide routine veterinary care or emergency vet care for an injury let alone annual vaccinations. Heck, they don't even test them before they spay and neuter them for FIP, FeLuke, or FIA as they don’t have enough funds. ALL ferals that are spayed or neutered around here have notched ears to insure that if they should by chance end up in a trap again that they are released immediately. Oh, I have a mistake over in my house with a notched ear. He definitely wasn't a feral that was tossed back out on the street. An obese older siamese no less that was front declawed. I still scratch my head over that one being neutered and released into an alley of Chicago. And last but not least, the people who "committed" to feeding the ferals were not always as reliable as they would have others believe. I distinctly recall one woman who claimed she had to pay her car insurance and couldn't afford to buy food for her colony until her next pay check. I heard other stories of why food wasn't purchased and Christmas time seemed to be particularly hard on many feral cats as toy buying took precedence. There were those who took vacations who flippantly asked how long ferals could make it scavenging to better judge how long they could be gone- I even remember one such woman’s name- it was Sharon. I also recall people who moved into new homes and never took their colony from the old neighborhood with them. Sad reality is that even people with their hearts in the right place can be incredibly irresponsible. Committing to provide care for a companion pet or a feral is an extremely long term commitment of both time and expense. We had several elderly people who had provided food to colonies who passed on with no one standing in line to take the torch. My own personal friend and his husband fed ferals and had a colony of at least 20. When my personal friend's boyfriend died, he continued to feed their colony. When he died… I inherited the colony AND their indoor only cats as well as a chipmunk. Oh joy. All too frequently one’s best intentions can fall by the way side through no fault of their own. This being said, there were many people who would have gone without food themselves before they would have even considered not buying food for their colonies and there were quite a few who did at least try to re-trap their ferals to provide vet care and annual vaccines.

I lost an indoor only cat last year to an airborn mutated feline virus. My cat was current on all of his vaccines. He died on Christmas Eve morning. Not a dry eye in our house. Another indoor only cat contracted the same feline virus. He lived but has never been the same since and is permanently neurologically damaged. He can't jump up or off of anything without wiping out and splatting. My vet bills were in excess of $1,000 all because I had the audacity to think I could open my windows to allow the fresh air in to my own home that fall. My comment would be that nobody wants to support stem cell research UNTIL... it happens to them. Probably a bad analogy but please consider this before you judge me too harshly, my personal pets are part of my family and they have rights too. All of my personal pets are former shelter animals and all were adopted as adults and most were even older adults that sat around waiting and waiting for somebody to take them home. Who takes home a 15 year old cat let alone an 18 year old cat? Who adopts a cat with the pads of its feet burned off from having stepped in battery acid? Who adopts a cat needing insulin 2x a day? How about a 3 legged cat with no tail because a firecracker was stuck in her rectum and set off by kids? How about a cat with mal absorption syndrome from having had untreated intestinal parasites for so long that the intestines were perforated? A deaf cat? I have and I am not alone as there are many more out there who conscientiously choose a differently abled adult cat over a kitten from shelters that warehouse people's former pets.

If someone showed me land and blueprints for a private enclosed sanctuary for ferals I would donote cash in a heartbeat as that would be a win win situation for all concerned parties. Until then, I’ll do my best to continue to financially support my local no kill shelter and the low cost spay/neuter/vet programs for low income private citizens taking in strays.

What I have read in these threads is absolutely incredible. Many enormously big hearted people with many different ways of showing it. We’re never all going to agree and that’s ok as the sanctuaries on private land may just be the ticket to locating that middle ground. Perhaps it is best for us all to focus on what unites which would be our love of animals regardless of whether they are introduced or indigenous rather than getting all hung up on our differences. Here’s wishing you all a Happy and Health New Year!


This message was edited Dec 16, 2008 6:46 PM

Ok. I've not posted anymore on this thread, because my intention was never to be part of an argument. I've apologised to Maria, for taking her thread away. She asked a very valid question, and all I saw was cats potentially being hurt. I should have never posted what I did on her thread, and for that I'm sorry.

Now as for the feral issues...
I had decided to not post on this thread anymore, because no matter what I say, I'm going to be slapped down, but it seems that it has been implied that I'm a hypocrit because of my spay/neuter efforts. I'll have you know that what I do to help ferals has nothing to do with being "politically correct." I have a genuine love for these creatures, and I want to help them in anyway that I can. I also want you to know that I've done without things that I wanted so I can afford to feed and care for these cats. I'm a full time homemaker, and I have no children, so I have plenty of time to devote to them. I sit outside on my porch, talking softly to them, and pettin g the ones who will let me. I love each and every one of them. I've named them, and I've learned all of thier little personality quirks. When I read someone's ideas that all ferals should be disposed of, my heart breaks, because if you had your way, these beautiful, sweet animals, that I call mine would be killed. I can hardly control my tears as I write.
I also didn't like the implication that I'm just repeating what I've read, and I don't have any real knowledge. Not only did I research it on the web extensively, but I'm also going by what I've seen with my own eyes. I have 20 cats outside, 16 of them s/n. Guess what...I still have birds, squirrels, and I still have my garden. Some of the birds even go up to the the cat food bowls and eat out of them.

Now I know you'll come back with many reasons why I'm all wrong in my way of thinking, but I just want you to know that I'm not going to write anything else on this thread. I'm through arguing. I'm through apologizing because I find the slaughter of cats who's only crime is being disgarded by irresposible caregivers heartbreaking. Animal control has been killing millions of unwanted cats for years and years. If killing is the answer, then why hasn't it worked? I disagree with you when you say that TNR adds to the problem, for how can a cat that cannot reproduce be responsible for overpopulation? We haven't gotten them all yet, so how can you say that it won't work?
I'm so angry at myself, because I was going to write an intelligent reply, calmly stating my views, without so much emotion, but I can't. I'm very passionate about what I believe, and my emotions are involved. I can't help it. I wasn't going to write this, because I know you'll never see my view, so I didn't see the point of arguing, but when my motives were questioned I had to speak out.

This may be my last post, because I'm sure I'll be asked to leave the garden. So be it.

Maria, I hope you know that nothing I said on this whole thread was directed at you in anyway. You asked a valid question, and you deserve to get the advice you asked for. I'm so sorry for changing the subject and turning your thread into what it has become. I hope you'll forgive me.

I can get very emotional about cats, I have 6, all rescued. They show up, they are fed, they get neutred, they move in. I also feed the birds, raise your feeder way higher than cats can jump. There are some fairly tall poles available at bird feeding stores. Even my most agile cat can't jump that high. Occassionally they catch a bird feeding on the ground. I'm not happy about it, but in the animal kingdom, (hey, we're animals with souls), it's a predatory society. Most animals live by killing other more vulnerable critters. Unless someone is a vegan, they are eating food that was probably killed by someone else for them, so they don't personally have to participate in the process. It's not comfortable to think about. I'm not a vegetarian but if I had to do all the killing with my own hands for the meat I eat, I wouldn't be eating any.

I always say I won't say anymore, but I always do! :)

Jennifer- I am pretty sure you weren't directing anything towards me, but just in case I was unclear, I want to clarify that I DO promote TNR and think you are doing the right thing. I have followed your story in other threads and I think you are doing a good thing and helping to contribute to solving the problem of pet overpopulation. I think, though I don't want to speak for her, Equilibrium was not addressing YOU as a feral cat colony caretaker. But I have been involved in animal rescue in general for a while now, and I do get her point. Please understand that not everyone who manages colonies does it how you do. There are people who do what Equ said- they take on responsibility for these cats, and then move away without them. They feed them when it's convenient. They may or may not take them to the vet if they get sick. And I am afraid that the majority of caretakers do not think long term. Like what happens to the cats if something happens to the caretaker? These are often elderly folks so it's a valid question. We had a neighbor when I was a kid and she took in all sorts of strays. She had a niece, but no kids herself. When she was put in a nursing home, the niece called animal control and had them all taken in. They were all PTS. Even her indoor house cats b/c at that time animal control didn't do adoptions. The ferals they couldn't catch were left to fend for themselves.

I agree with roseone33 100%. It's the circle of life. Humans have caused a situation where there is no balance by destroying habitats, as mentioned earlier in this thread. Where I disagree with Equ is that we cannot pick and choose which predators we take out. Because cats kill birds is not an acceptable reason to exterminate them, IMO. However, if I understand her correctly, she is also seeing that as a better alternative for the cat who will likely suffer a gruesome fate itself. I disagree with that for other reasons. To quote Craig Brestrup, as I have done on DG before, “when we put ending suffering over saving lives, we put first things second and second things first.” Frankly, our overall common ground here is that we all agree that responsibility on the part of humans is key.

Jennifer, please don't think you get kicked out of the Garden for expressing your views and defending your choices if you feel they are being attacked. You were not abusive, disrespectful, political, etc. You did not attack anyone or use vulgar language, or get "political" so you have not violated any rules. Expressing our opinions is not against the rules, and we don't have to agree with each other. Furthermore, those differing opinions can be argued as long as everyone is an adult about it and treats each other with respect. I for one have not seen anyone being disrespected here or anywhere else for that matter, so I say we can debate it all we want!

Ironically, it is the fact that a bunch of people with a commonality of having a great love of animals yet a differing of opinion on how to help them that has caused such a division in the animal welfare community. IMO that is why we have not reduced the overpopulation to zero by now. In theory, it is very simple and a very easy problem to correct. There is no reason we should still be slaughtering cats and dogs by the millions in this country. It is because we don't work together. The head of a certain shelter in Ft. Worth reamed me good telling me how inhumane no-kill shelters are. I volunteer at the largest no-kill shelter in the DFW area. His shelter takes in all animals brought in, no questions asked. And they do place a lot of them, but their kill rate is still about 60%. And he was livid that I kept using the word "kill." So I told him that if he wasn't comfortable calling his actions by name, perhaps he shouldn't be doing it. So there we go, arguing round and round. Is it more humane to kill them or "warehouse" them indefinitely? I look at the Chow, Howie, who we have had since he was a puppy and is now 3 years old, and I wonder. Best case scenario he is out of that dog run 3 or 4 hours a day. Sometimes it's just his 4 walks a day. Is that humane? I don't know. But I can tell you this. For me personally, I came to this conclusion. We have to acknowledge the INTRINSIC value of an animal's life. Obviously those of us in animal welfare think it's there or we wouldn't help them. So that means you have to agree that a cat's life has value just because it exists. A feral cat's life is no less valuable than my fat housecat's life. Same with humans- it is just as illegal to murder a homeless person as it is you or me. The process of being arrested, going to jail, a trial, the sentence, etc. are no different. I apply that to animals as well. Being unwanted, unloved, or in the case of these cats, untamed, does not make it okay to kill them. You could argue that a child in foster care with horrible parents is going to be miserable and have a bad life. They don't have the same shot at life as my child or yours would have. But we don't "euthanize" the less fortunate child to end it's suffering or because the alternative of letting him/her live might be unpleasant. Why? Because it’s a human being and we don’t “euthanize” people to end or prevent them from suffering. Or, in that example, to prevent them from becoming future criminals and hurting others. I use that as an analogy of the cats hurting birds.

That brings me to my final point as to the bird killing. The way you stop that is by imposing leash laws for cats. If they want to get rid of TNR, that’s what you do. You can’t do TNR with dogs because in most communities dogs cannot run free. But a dog can attack a person and cats don’t, so that is the main reason you don’t see cat leash laws all that often. Otherwise, you can’t just pin the bird killing on un-owned cats. Your neighbor’s indoor/outdoor cat kills birds and stuff just as easily. In fact, a healthy well fed cat is more likely to hunt than a sick, starving feral. I have had tons and tons of cats over the years- house cats, barn cats, indoor/outdoor cats, etc. Our best hunters were always our healthy females that got to come and go into the house as they pleased. A hungry feral is much more likely to raid your garbage can. To me, getting rid of TNR is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.