Garden Critters Database

Baa, I meant negative about the task at hand to create the PDB not about the PDB itself.
Why is my photo unfair? Because I only show part of a plant but not the whole plant? The picture of the beetle also only shows part of it. Where is the underside shown, where is the under wing shown, details of the head,...? Where was the bug found? There is alot of important info missing!
The idea of critters database wasn't meant to be a complete list of bugs in the world but meant as help for the Gardner to ID the commonly found ones in the garden and on plants with the ability to link plants in PDB to the critters that use them a food plants.
A simple idea is just being blown out of proportion here.

Thanks Smilin :)

PanamonCreel

"Why is my photo unfair?" because your photo is a leaf shape that is common over many genera and families and without a little more of the plant form we simply cannot pinpoint it to a family let alone a species.

"The idea of critters database wasn't meant to be a complete list of bugs in the world but meant as help for the Gardner to ID the commonly found ones in the garden and on plants with the ability to link plants in PDB to the critters that use them a food plants"

And if we were all in one region of the world, it's definitely do-able but we have a lot of non-North American members here too. Any database created by DG that allows all members to contribute will be an international work, this also means these DBs will never be very simple and certainly not an ordinary garden database.

I still think that a bug forum where people can just post a photo or description of what they found in their garden and ask if anyone knows whether it's harmful (to plants or humans) or not would be a whole lot easier. I know that it's great having the PDB there to access even when a human isn't around to ID your plant for you, but like Baa and others have said, having a complete DB for insects etc seems pretty unrealistic to me.

Maybe there could be subcategories like: aphids, worms/caterpillers (since lots of people can't tell the difference between the two), moths/butterflies (ditto), spiders, beetles/bugs (what the common man thinks of as a "bug" ....sorry to offend any entymolologists here ;-), and others (crickets, roaches, etc). And perhaps there could be a link between the forum and the DB. What I mean is, if someone posts a question on the bug forum about a certain bug and gets an ID, then it could be added by a moderator of the forum to the DB. Or better yet, the person who asked for and got the ID could be asked to add it to the DB. I dunno.

I just think that so may people just want to know "Does this thing do damage to my mint or not"...not whether or not it's related to the other moth at my neighbors. And although I have no problem with the moths in my garden, I do havea problem with their larvae eating so many of my plants. So perhaps I do need to know that the cute moths flitting about my garden are the root cause of my root problems ;-), what I really need to know is what to do to get rid of them without poisoning my entire family. ;-)

Am I being too pessimistic about the DB? I dunno. I just think it's a monumental task that very very few of us can help with.

I am SUCH an amateur gardener. My entire family has about 10 green thumbs each...except for me. But even I have been able to add 7 new plants, about 45 photos and nearly 60 details to the PDB. I wouldn't be able to add a single thing about a single insect, bug, spider....whatever the heck you call all of them. Most people know the difference between a tree and a shrub and a "regular plant". But there are a whole heck of a lot of us who haven't a clue when we are supposed to call something a bug or an insect or exactly what qualifies something as a spider (that one I know at least ;-).

So again, it's going to likely end up being a really huge task left up to a very small handful of people to do all the work. I would be willing to work on data input, but indentification is something I wouldn't even touch.

Sorry if I sound so "anti". This is really just my two cents worth.

-Julie

I also think that Baa has a point (not to gang up on you, PanamonCreel ;) ). It would be a ridiculously huge task to try to get all the entries down to the level of species, but what if we could somehow make the entries go only to the level of genus or even family?

I think the best way would be if we could come up with a way to make it so that the entry only goes to the level that the creator wants. Take the Fire Ant – it is a genus, there are several species, but you don’t need an entry for each one. Or the aphid – there are dozens of genera in the superfamily of Aphidoidea (and probably hundreds of species) that are all aphids, but you don’t need more than one entry, Whereas the Honeybee is only one species, and you would want a separate entry for it.

I really don’t know if there would be a practical way to make the entries like that, but it might be worth thinking about.

-Paul-

Just a thought. I tend to agree we're not going to reach the level of expertise on bugs that the PDB does with plants. (And even the PDB "knows its limits" - we don't claim to be the leading authorities on all aspects of horticulture, taxonomy or botany.)

Truth be told, most of us are not entomologists, don't want to be entomologists, and we didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night only to awaken thinking we could be an entomologist this morning. (For those outside the U.S., that last one is a take off on a silly televison ad campaign running in the U.S.)

So......what if we use Garden Terms (which needs a new name by the way) to create a repository of insects and examples of the type of damage they wreak, or the good they do? I may not know much, but I know a rolly-polly from a june bug from a love bug from a cinch bug from a flea beetle ;o) I can also find out the scientific names of each with a tiny bit of internet searching. Isn't that really what we want to know and share? Questions like...

What does an arachnid wasp look like, compared to a dirt dauber? So I know which one to swat at, and which one to cheer on.

What does a red ant hill look like, compared to common garden ants that are a pest, but not something to be alarmed about?

What does an orchard bee's ground nest look like, so I know they're harmless and I should leave them alone?

What does a parasitized hornworm look like so I know to not kill it, since it's "Dead Bug Walking"?

I might be off-base, but I propose that we don't create a structure that forces us to delve much deeper than species-and-basic-info level (. If we can do THAT well, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the typical gardener in terms of knowledge.

The nice thing about Garden Terms is that if someone does have indepth information, they can add it as a comment. The biggest downside is that it's not easily cross-referenced among related species or characteristics.

Terry, one downside I see to posting in Garden Terms is your example:
What does an orchard bee's ground nest look like, so I know they're harmless and I should leave them alone?

How would I look that up in Garden Terms, just enter "bees" ? I'd be more likely to pose the question in a forum. I didn't even know there was a beneficial bee that nests in the ground. I'd probably assume all ground nests were yellow jackets.

Personally, I believe Garden Terms is SO under-utilized. I often copy and paste some information in a thread, stating where it came from, and pointing the user to it. 'Course, some of those same people will not know (or bother) to use our Search Box for information already posted in many, many threads, or even Google, if they can simply ask and someone else will do the work.

[Note: I am not criticizing Newbies. How can they know we have been here for years and already explored and posted many common questions and answers? Even FAQ is so wide in range that it's hard to find a specific item unless one uses Search.]

Terry -

That's certainly more realistic, but my main questions still stand:
Who will administer it? &
Will it be exclusively N. American?

BTW -
"June bugs" (Melolonthinae) 24 genera, ca. 500 species in North America.
"Rolly-pollies" (Phylum, Arthropoda; Class, Malacostraca; Order, Isopoda - in other words, not insects) ca. 100 species in North America.
"Flea beetles" (Aticinae) ca. 370 species in North America.
"Arachnid (Spider) Wasps" (Sphecidae) ca. 1200 species in North America.
"(Dirt) Mud daubers" (also Sphecidae)
"Red ants" (Do you mean "Fire ant"?)
"Garden ants" (Do you mean "Black garden ant"?
"Orchard bees" (Do you mean "Blue orchard bee" or Orchard Mason Bee"?)

So what you mean is that you know those species known by those common names in your area, right?
"I can also find out the scientific names of each with a tiny bit of internet searching." Are you willing to bet money on that? :-D

And finally: where can I catch one of those "love bugs"???? ;)


PanamonCreel -

Apologies if I sounded negative - 'twas not my intent. In fact, I think it is a wonderful idea, and as such should be approached realistically and pragmatically. Actually, I would be tickled pink to have a functional international insect database, as roughly a quarter of my Central/South American & SE Asian coleoptera have proved impossible to identify with my limited references. I've based my questions on that experience.

Also, I admit that I should have provided a locality with the picture: Bolivian Andes, Amazon side, 2700m cloud forest. However, it is only customary to provide verso for lepidoptera, so that's all you get. Good luck!

(OK - one hint: Lamiinae)

;)


This message was edited Aug 28, 2004 3:02 AM

Heck I didn't even know ANY bees/wasps/hornets/whatever had nests in the ground! At least now I won't freak out if I see one exiting the ground. ;-) The only thing I knew were in the ground like that were ants. sheesh, I feel really dumb ;-)

-Julie

Touche. However, we never said insects only - just garden critters. And rolly-pollies are indeed critters ;o) (As are possum, deer, field mice, etc.)

I do realize it's a thorny issue, and I see your point. However, as long as we don't take ourselves too seriously, I think it would be possible to assemble a collection of common (in my neck of the woods OR yours) garden critters, along with basic information about them - much of it would be anecdotal. This would be with full knowledge that our identification of each said species carries a risk of being wrong. (And if some bug guys with extra time on their hands want to come correct us, I'd welcome them with open arms.)

Don't gang up on me otherwise I'll have to bring out the fire ant throwing bazooka LOL.

Baa, the point I was trying to make about the picture is that the picture alone is not sufficient information. From all I know that beetle could have come from another galaxy with a space ship and so could have been the leaf. Both pictures have important information missing.
"And if we were all in one region of the world, it's definitely do-able but we have a lot of non-North American members here too. "
No difference to PDB, the entries are done by individuals so international members can enter the critters they see and know about in their local gardens. I doubt we need to have the insects living in the tree canopy of tropical rainforest trees in that DB :).

I agree that the species name may often be an unknown and should be labeled as such. Maybe an Entomolgist specializing in that Family passes by later on and can then add the true species name.


Added: Cheeeeez, you guys post way too fast for my slow writing :)




This message was edited Aug 27, 2004 1:10 PM

I'm intrigued with the idea of a DB strictly for "garden critters." Reading through these posts I've come to believe that there are many here who are more than amply qualified to administer the DB.

I will add my name to those who've already said they'd be willing to help out with input data.

TC...

LOL Lophohora, Cerambycidae Lamiinae of the Bolivian Andes now that narrows it down to a few hundred species most likely :). Well at least I guessed the Cerambycidae family.
Like I said it's not supposed to be a complete/every species DB (insects, the most difficult one first, other critters later on, but lets leave mammals and birds out ).
The idea with Garden Terms is good but the cross referencing issue deminishes the usefullness.

Terry, right on with not taking it too overly serious.

Milan

I agree with all you say Terry, and would welcome all critters - not just insects, or even just invertebrates. If someone has seen a living creature in their garden - particularly with photo - it would be great to be able to include it.

I still feel that making a judgement as to 'beneficial' or 'garden foe' is a mistake Milan
As I said earlier:

"I'm just very keen for this not to become a "pointing the finger, here are all the bad guys, let's squashem" list
;oD

It's a good opportunity to cover the critter kingdom in a far more tolerant and objective way than that."

As with most subjects 'one man's meat is another man's poison'. It's all a matter of perspective

BTW salvia_lover, we have the Widlife and ID Forums where we can already post those pics :) they're great

Good discussion. Much to digest.

Philomel, true with the person to person opinion in regards to Garden foes, beneficial,.....
Just as an example a black mosquito would be called a pest by most, but there are some fish species that specialize in eating their larvae and will not breed without them being present thus they may not be called a pest by aquarium enthusiasts :)
I guess the issue can be addressed with the wording, e.g. "severe infestation may kill or stunt host plant(s)", "May contribute to the transmittal secondary diseases to host", "Is parasitic to other insect larva/adult",... What do you think?
How about this controversy (I want that option in the DB): "Larvae and/or adults are considered edible to (some?) humans"

Food for thought LOL

Milan

Ewwwwwwwww! I know, I know, I know. Scorpions are closely related to certain expensive and highly edible Lobster, but still. Ick. Yuck. Blahhhhhhhhhh......shudder

Terry, actually scorpions are more closely related to spiders according to the taxon, go figure.

Class: Chelicerata (Arachnida), "spiders, scorpions and harvestmen"

Another one for thought

Order: Dictyoptera "Cockroaches and Praying Mantids" (though some entomologists divide them into seperate classes)

Philomel, I do like the ID forum a lot and I post there more than anywhere else here at DG, but I've only seen 1 or two questions about "critters" there since I joined. The vast VAST majority of questions are about botanicals. And the wildlife forum seems much more for deer, birds, rabbits, etc than for aphids and spiders. It just seems that a "Bugs and Friends" ;-) forum would be a better place for these. my humble opinion only :-)

-Julie

Cockroaches and Praying Mantis? How can it BE?!?!?!?! Now that one will sit in my brain everytime I think how cool a praying mantis looks while he's perched up on one of my plants. Well, every family has a bad apple. I bet that Praying Mantis has a strange family reunion every year having to deal with the black sheep cockroach cousin of his ;-).

-Julie

this does NOT look like hummingbirds to me. but they sure like what is in there.

kareoke, I think you need to ask for a refund from where you bought that thing. It's obviously defective ROTFLMAO! I've been trying to figure out a way to get a humminbird feeder here in Israel (don't exist here) and now i think that would be my luck....I'd go to the trouble of having one shipped from across the pond only to have bees and wasps converge on my little plot of green. Too funny! :-D

-Julie

Those are Yellow-Jackets, also known as Wasps. There are lots of different looking kinds of those around, but what does that matter?
You see, a very basic, non-technical Bug Database could be quite informative and educational to a lot of folks. Bugs have a lot more to do with gardening than a whole bunch of other forums we have and we do not mind them at all.

Yes, salvia_lover, a new forum as you suggest would be good :)

Yes, I agree PanamonCreel - if we could have wording only on the friend/foe issue, so that different views can be expressed and not fields which merely go to one viewpoint or the other, without a chance to qualify.
I'd certainly be fine with an 'edible' field ;) we don't have to try them ourselves after all - but it would certainly add interest and another perspective
I quite fancy crispy locusts (or chocolate covered ants) in theory LOL
Anyone for baked hedgehog?

BTW have you a thread introducing your friend Blacky, who features on your member page? I'd like to meet him/her..... (not with a view to lunch I hasten to add)

salvia_lover, I can tell you from experience that the bees get far more of this food than the hummers do, in fact they keep the hummers away,I have a bee catcher right close to it but they are smart they never go there

So, dead in the water? DDT or Melathion got the thread? Cat got everyones tongue?
Where are the decision makers?
Huh?

Hey, I'm still very much for it! C'mon folks let's sort out just what it is we want to do with a critter thang.

I'm still watching this thread which means I'm still interested in a "critter thang" data base.

TC...

Snap TC ;oD

Just a suggestion. Dave has made it possible for anyone to start their very own forum site. If someone with basic bug knowledge were to set it up couldn't this work as a viable option?

Basic forums Beetles, Flies, Spiders, Ants, Bees, Aphids, Mites.... and also forums for what did this type pictures.
People could post their pictures for identification by showing a picture of the insect/bug and what it does on the plant such as yellowed leaves, jagged or smooth holes, brown spots etc.

Then as the information accumulates and things are identified the information could be edited and copied to a database for easier searching.
People like myself, with limited (ok almost none) knowledge would not be intimidated by such a format and those who have more knowledge could then take it from there.

Now, don't throw thingsat me! It is just a thought.

I like Zanymuse's thinking as to having someone with advanced training and/or knowledge monitoring a "criter thang" forum and/or database. I 'm sure we have folks here that can help. We could perhaps enlist someone from a university or jr. college, too.

I am very interested in this also. I'm always trying to identify a bug or snake or something!!

Just deleted this message...am slowly learning the system here and found my answer through "search". Whew! Better late than never ~:-)

This message was edited Sep 7, 2004 2:44 PM

This message was edited Sep 7, 2004 2:45 PM

I would also LOVE to have an insect/bug database as a reference here. Especially to identify beneficial bugs and insects. Fore example, a lot of lady bug larvae(?) are destroyed because they don't look at all like the adults.

More complex and advanced information about each one would be interesting to know, but basic information would be utilized by most average gardeners on a daily basis.

When I see an insect in the garden, the first thing I want to know is what it is by common name, then is it a beneficial bug that should be left alone, or a pest that will damage my plants.

(I know that is a tough one because some people consider caterpillars a pest when they eat the leaves of plants!)

Then what can I use, either organic or otherwise, to eradicate it as soon as possible before it cause too much damage.

When to be on the look out for them seasonally would be helpful too...

~ Example ~ "What's Bugging You?"
Common name:
Scientific name:
Food:
Habitat:
Impact: positive or negative/beneficial or pest....
Controls: organic or chemical
Higher Classification: (optional and/or if available)

"Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord." -- T. Eisner

This message was edited Sep 8, 2004 9:09 AM

I like that quote!!!