Garden Critters Database

First off, Dave I like what you've done with DG V2.0, the tab system finally shows the broad spectrum of DG at one glance and it should have an positive impact on subscriptions (provide us with the statistics :).
I think there is room for a few more tabs so one of my ideas was to add a Garden Critters DB that's kinda in the same format as PDB with Family/Genus/Species/Common Name, where you can add pictures, have choices like Beneficial, Garden Foe,...

Just throwing more work your way :)

BTW opinions on this and possible other additions would be nice.

Milan

It might take awhile for Dave to find time to do it, but I think it would be great!

-Paul-

There is always scope for people to volunteer to do these projects, Dave, Terry and Trish don't have to have all the fun ;)

I wasn't entirely pro this project when it's been discussed since I believe we could become quickly stuck, now if we've got some budding or expert entomologists among us who want to have the input, I don't see a problem.

Great idea, I'm a bug person, love seeing different kinds, except I'm not exactly crazy about spiders.

Since not too many members come across that many bugs nor might they be expert digital photographers, it would probably be a very slim forum. But, if we combined it with Diseases you might have something there.
(Then I can send pictures of variegated leaves and call it Mildew, Mold Fungus, etc. he he).

Edited for spelling.

This message was edited Aug 14, 2004 5:29 PM

If diseases are included in the same format i.e. scientific names, the smaller fungal diseases will be extrordinarily difficult to identify correctly and photograph

I think Milan is talking about a completely new part of DG, or even a new website with a new domain name. That would be like the PDB, only with bugs, birds, and bunnies, instead of bulbs, broccoli, and bromeliads.

-Paul-

Yes, an added "module" to DG, but no, not a new domain.
I wouldn't go as far as to include birds, mammals, rodents and reptiles. These are more subjects for a Photo gallery. For now I would limit it to insects because a gardner often asks is this bug Friend or Foe. Fungal, Bacterial, Viral disease DB would be nice too but may requrie seperate table set-up.
The DB table for individual species can be kept simple but I have a little twist in mind (OMG here he goes) and that is a reporting section where a. - Gardners can report sightings by location (simple enough) b. - foes can be interlinked with host plants in the PDB ( two way link) they've been seen munching on (e.g Black Swallowtail Parsley) c. - beneficial insects linked with their main stable, ...
A Database is just a collection of data, the power lies in how this data is queried and used.
Wouldn't it be nice to browse a plant in PDB and see a list of possible insect foes for this plant with one click. :)

ah one can dream right?

BTW always willing to volunteer but I'm no expert entomologist.


Milan

Along these same lines... http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/253988/ and http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/367853/

And it seems like at one time we even had the makings for a corollary database of pests and diseases...unless I'm imagining things - maybe justmelisa was involved? Memory is definitely one of the first things to go!

It's about the same direction. Seems like that one got stuck in the sand. I guess I'll have to do some homework and try to present some proposals.
Questions to big Dave though (more to come I'm sure) :
-Is it possible to Categorize Pictures when posted in the Database and listed accordingly? Example with the subject: egg(s), larvae, adult, damage. That would have been nice with PDB too (foliage, flower, seeds) but it's always difficult to change it afterwards.
-How difficult to you see the "interlinkability" between host plant and foe?

Milan

Categorizing pictures should be a simple matter.

Linking plant and foe should also not be a terribly difficult undertaking. This kind of application is exactly that an RDBMS is for (which, of course, DG uses)

dave

You guys are making this way to hard ! We have a pets column. I saw a solid greenleaf hopper today. I see dragonflies and demenswhataever flies in colors. People take close ups of everything else in the garden. We don't need experts we need input. It's like when people say is the glass half empty or half full ? No one ever asks why isn't full? We have a butterflies and hummers forum, there are more bugs and cool insects. It's just another avenue for expression. Make it they will come!These pics are as close as the back door. This I took this afternoon.

Monterey

It's not a case of the amount of full or empty, it's a case of saying the glass contains 50% liquid and 50% air, in other words we need to begin accurate to entice those in the know to come.

Do we know the taxonomical details of many insects in our gardens, general impact on the garden environment, what identifies them from other insects, lifecycle, hosts, food etc? Can those who would administer the proposed DB identify from a photo or description which species the insect is?

Dave and Terry

How many entries would we need to start the DB off?

Dave can answer it more definitively but the PDB began with one entry ;o)

I would say there would need to be 50 or 100 entries (minimum) to have something to build on.

My one concern is how to focus this database. How does one define garden-related pests? Once we enter the wonderful world of insects, where do we draw the line? Do they have to pose a threat to a plant (which would rule out beneficial insects, so I would say the answer is "no"...)

50 to 100 entries is more than enough to start it off. But, defining all the details about it is the trickier part. How it'll be created, what details entries need, what kind of field we want (genus, species, cultivar, etc) and so forth.

The programming of said system will take about a week.

dave

There are many insects/animals that are seen as harmful by some people, but in fact may do good in other ways. Such classification would be very subjective so, if you really need to put in a "good or bad" field, perhaps this subjectivity could be highlighted in the wording?
.....and possible for varying views to be expressed

IMHO it would be good to be descriptive rather than judgemental - if you get my drift :)

Baa, I think that the ID issue of insects is similar to plants. There always will be a suspect list where one cannot be certain of the true ID by the photos only. Difference is that plants remain at the same location so one can go back and see what the flower may look like, now with insects that may not work so well :).

Terry, I agree that it shouldn't be limited to "Plant foes" only and I don't think there is a need to draw a line outright.

Dave, yep the devil is in the details and starting a DB with good/complete details is important since it's always difficult to change/add more later on when many entries already exist.
In the insect world we may have to start with entries by Order (fixed selection of 31 I think) and finish up with Subspecies. Eeeek I do hope no culivars with Bugs :)

hehehehe, cultivated bug varieties. Would involve "interesting" techniques to develop them, I'm sure!

Next up, patented bugs: NO UNAUTHORIZED BREEDING!

Panamoncreel

I've said many times, it is near on impossible to ID the majority of plants from a photo, there is a lot of luck involved. If we think of dark coloured weevils then we're looking at something akin to IDing wheat cultivars from photos!

As for drawing lines, there is a point to where you will have to say no, this subject, if dealt with as the PDB is, would be far bigger. I agree with Philomel, bad and good can be subjective too.

The photos for the smaller species are going to need to be tightly moderated, one of my level of photography would give very little detail for instance :) A close eye will be needed on the comments too ... just imagine the kind of comment you get when slugs have devastated a prized and difficult to grow plant *G*

How about forget it and just have a critters in the garden forum. This is what I saw that's it.

I've been lurking here and getting a feel for everyone's opinoins.

I like the idea of a place we can go to see insect images. I can also see where it could be difficult and tricky to impliment something of the quality that DG has come to stand for.

There have been some fantastic images of insects posted here throughout the years and they deserve to have their own spot, but most folks don't have a clue as to what they are photographing....I've been guilty myself. Got some awsome images...but no ID. I would love to be able to have all of the images in one convienient spot...it may help me with identification.

The image quality is very important, as most would require at the minimum a macro setting on a camera. Insects are normally so small that your average digicam falls far short of the requirements to photograph it properly.

I've cruised around the web looking for insect images, and there's a wide range of quality between sites...but very few have that 'National Geographic' look. Most are simply decent close-ups...and less.

It's an idea worth considering...and I think it would add to the attraction of DG to folks hunting for information.

By the way...I've got a little metallic green bug over in the ID forum looking for a name...can one of you bug folks help???

Make it a fun thing. This is a fun place. Here is a Carpenter Bee with a face like a buffalo!

Well, IF y'all decide to do it, I hope you will bring in Floridian to help.

As I understand it, which is oft incorrect, the question is about a permanent repository for things like bugs, diseases and the like with the attendant technical data for one and all to search for answers to their individual problems.Hope I got that right! Whereas, Photos; Identification; Garden Foes and Butterflies & Hummers would be appropriate for input of a more general and 'current event' nature. It sounds like something which would have a benefit to DG'ers, but isn't the information already available on the internet? I certainly defer to those who know more about this stuff than me, and hope whatever the decision is it doesn't cause anyone undue hardship. (that's just my opinion)

balvenie, you kinda got it right. The initial idea is to have a plant bug ID help and also have food plants of critters in PDB linked to the critter in the critter DB for quick reference. Diseases may follow later who knows. Oh yes there is alot of info available on the net about insects, there's also alot of info on plants on the net (who needs PDB? :), but haven't found any that combine the two in an easy to understand matter.
Once you build it they'll come (or so I hope).
If it happens then it ain't gonna happen tomorrow.

PanamonCreel, we asked ourselves that very question before we started pumping a lot of time and energy into the PDB. The reason we decided to proceed was because we found a few sites with a LOT of entries (but not a lot of details), and many sites that had few entries (but nicely-completed data and images.) Very few of them allow users to add even images, let alone details or new entries.

We decided there was a place on the internet for a plants database that was all-encompassing AND had lots of details and images. And the only practical way to do it was to give people the ability to add information and images themselves (with some supervision of course.) The supervision has become more important as the PDB has grown larger and attracts ever more users ;o)

Well, I don't know about other extension offices, but when I go to my first MG classnext month, I will be given a book that is strictly about insects. Perhaps other offices have books like this. I'm sure there are plenty at the library. Maybe all it would take is a few people who are willing to devote some time and effort into building the database and it could be a very useful resource for a lot of folks.

I'll gladly contribute what I find in that book, although it's specific to OK. It's about an inch and a half thick, too.

There are countless people who walk into extension offices across the country with bug-eaten leaves (or worse) and they are seeking answers. What kind of critter did this and how can I make it go away? Photos of the critters, the damage they might do and possible treatments would be of great benefit - not only to Dave's Gardeners, but to the folks who work in the extension offices everywhere.

What do they extend at your office?
Is MG morning glories, or machine guns, or what?

LOL! The Machine Gun Extension Office! I love it!

seriously, I think the MG is for Master Gardener, here.

Cheri'

Yes, Master Gardener. (My husband is the military man, so machine gun would be fine for him.) I will be taking classes through the Cleveland County Extension Office.

A few thoughts
In order to get a balanced view it would be good to not just include critters that are vegetarian, which seems to be the general assumption above, but also those that eat their fellow critters and not forgetting the detrivores who do a really good job cleaning up after everyone else lol.
Perhaps too the narrowing to 'garden' critters may be a difficult one to define.....

philo- you are just asking to have a job here, aren't you! LOL You better than me! Yikes! Different English you are speaking there.

LOL daisy
I'm just very keen for this not to become a "pointing the finger, here are all the bad guys, let's squashem" list
;oD

It's a good opportunity to cover the critter kingdom in a far more tolerant and objective way than that

Too right!!!

: ) And you are gonna get a job nonetheless!! And I will appreciate it and promote it.

Okay, so after I posted my other thread, I saw this one. Oops. I agree with what I think Monterey is saying in that regardless of whether or not we end up creating a database for these guys, having a forum where we can go and say "look I shot a photo of this little spider on my Ornigothalum this morning. Isnt he cute...by the way, does anyone know what kind he is and if I should steer clera of him?" No pointing fingers or asking for permission to squish at will. Just curiosity about what we've got in our gardens. If no one can anser, fine. If they can, fine. And if they think the photo is cool, that's fine too LOL. I'm far from an entymologist, but I definitely like seeing pics of what's out there even if I have no clue what the little guy or gal in the pic is LOL

Speaking of which, here's the little guy I found on my Ornithogalum....(although here he had already jumped down to the Dichondra LOL)....

Just my 2 cents worth...

-Julie

I could see where a database of this kind would be very useful. I'm willing to contribute if it goes forward.

British biochemist J.B.S. Haldane was once asked by a theologian what inferences could be drawn about the nature of God from the study of His Creation. Haldane answered, "He has an inordinate fondness for beetles". By the most conservative estimate, approximately 350,000 species of beetles have been described since 1758 - or an average of slightly more than four per day.

And Beetles are only one of several Orders in Insecta. Try this on for size: (The Apterygota) Protura, Collembola, Thysanura, Diplura; (The Exopterygota) Ephemeroptera, Odonata, Plecoptera, Grylloblatodea, Orthoptera, Phasmida, Dermaptera, Embioptera, Dictyoptera, Isoptera, Zoraptera, Psocoptera, Mallophaga, Siphunculata, Hemiptera, Thysanoptera; (The Endopterygota) Neuropter, Coleoptera, Strepsiptera, Mecoptera, Siphonaptera, Diptera, Lepidoptera, Trichoptera, & Hymenoptera. (There are also Microsoft Bugs, but they're in a whole different class...)

There are well over 1 million different known species of insects in the world, and some experts estimate that there might be as many as 10 million. And a good percentage of those look completely different during the various stages of their lives...

Oops! And I forgot to mention Phlylum Arthropoda...

So how about a reality check: if somebody here can give me a Latin name for the beetle in the picture below then I'll admit we might have the expertise to attempt an Entomology Database - assuming that person agrees to administer it. Otherwise, I fear to tread - and I'm no angel...

Oh! You were talking about a "Common-Garden-Pests-of-North-America-That-You-Can-Find-in-a-Peterson-Field-Guide Database". That's a different story. Go for it!


;)

This message was edited Aug 27, 2004 6:23 AM

Good thing that the good folks at DG didn't feel so negative when starting the PDB otherwise it would never had been started.
Nice picture but even an Emtomologist would laugh at the wealth of information you provided with it.
Most likely of the Cerambycidae family which narrows it down to about 27,000 species ;)
Lophophora give me the latin name for the plant where the leaf in the picture came from ;)

I'm not sure you can compare the PDB with an insect database. Why would gardeners be negative about a plant database? We have a close relationship with the plants in our gardens, we plant seeds, take cuttings, seek out special plants we want to add for a particular look or to help complete a collection etc. We nurture and grow these plants for a long time, a gardener can no more reject a plant database as a monkey could reject a banana plantation.

With insects, we don't grow them on, culture the eggs and larval stages, in fact with many insects we merely just want to see the back of them in whatever growth stage. Botanists, Horticulturalists and Gardeners are legion, Entomologists and Amateur Entomologists are not.

I think your photo is rather more unfair and illustrates a little of the points I've made above, he didn't tear off the leg and say what genus is this from, he gave you a whole insect. If you put in a good portion of the plant the leaf is from, I'm sure a few people here would know what it was! That's the reason the PDB is successful because the people here and their collective knowledge of the plants they grow. I know around 98% of the plants in my garden, I only know there are at least 6 species of bees that visit every year and I only know them at adult stage, Aphids are innumerable and without a microscope I couldn't even begin to know if the green coloured Aphids are all the same species or several different kinds, that's not counting all the other insects that appear from time to time.

In my view, we still have a lot more work to do in the PDB, the amount of plant species in the world, like insects is unknown, however it's estimated at around 270,000 to 500,000, the PDB is running at about 72,000 at present and many of those are cultivars rather than species, not counting those entries that don't have the information filled in. ;)

Baa,

You bring up a very good point. If we would all just focus our attention on one area, such as the PDB, we could make it an amazing resource (even beyond what it already is). There are a number of folks who regularly contribute information and photos to the Plants Database, but it would be so much better if more people made an effort to contribute.

Some people might say, "Well, I just don't know a lot about many plants". Well, neither did I at first. It's not hard to search the web for data and compare it to what is in the PDB. It takes time, but it's not necessarily difficult.

I didn't realize that there were so many critters out there. Ick. :)