I am sure there will be a ton of votes to say number one Nat.
Me? I guess you will have to put me in 2,I do not feel a need to apologize,and I know from my short history here,that this will be one of those 'Can't we just all get along' things.
I do not like to post like this,I have tried to be the friendly .
I was a member of all 4 groups until I was banned from BGI.
A lot of my hard feelings came from back during the time when Ludger was banned,I do not like to see anyone banned,so that is one thing about being in the group number 2 I don't like,I do like seeing the ones that only came in here to post as 'backup',volunteer to leave,I did agree with his removal,and I was one of the first to say that,he had been rude and evasive,he was banned from BGI for this,now I am not there and he is.
Israel and Palestine are at it again
Whew! I've been outta town, and I have not read to the bottom of this thread, and have no intention of doing so, but I do want to respond to Karrie's comment about people that view and post to a bunch of threads at one time...I AM VERY GUILTY OF THAT AND I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE THAT I MAY HAVE OFFENDED BY DOING IT!!! It was unintentional, and I never meant to hurt anyone's feelings. I don't have alot of time to spend here each day, and don't post to a whole lot of threads, but when I do, its a bunch at once. I will not be doing that in the future. GOD Bless You All :) Gretchen
Thats is not it at all Gretchen,please keep posting and bumping threads that you feel are worthy of veiwing.
The bumping that went on,and I was just a guilty as Tracey,had to do with tiGs thread,the thread had quietly gone to the second page and she brought it up with another picture after it was not noticed,I bumped some threads and rolled it back down.
I can't really say that I was in on the beginning of the troubles, because there were several blow ups before I became really involved with the brug forum, but I have to admit I've been right in the middle of the last two years worth. It's been about the way people treat each other, loss of friendships, feelings of betrayal, dishonesty, deceit and loss of control. There are always those who have to have the last word, those who have to be the one authority, those who have to be "boss" and some would rather argue than eat. There are some that have used the forums to make statements to others, though it wasn't always obvious to someone who had no clue as to the history on this forum and some have made outright nasty comments to others. There are some who fanned the flames from the sidelines by sending out inflamatory emails, to get the troops riled up and go in and do their dirty work so they come out looking innocent when they weren't at all.
I was thinking about this this morning and of course I kept telling myself that I have a right to be offended, to feel hurt. I mean, good grief, there have been whole threads here that were pure meanness and lots of things said on another forum that were pure nastiness. Then I thought "What if the Ultimate Authority asked me if I was innocent? I'm not talking about Dave, I'm talking about a higher power. Someone who KNOWS what I've thought, done, said.............Could I stand there and say "I had a right, don't hold it against me"? I don't think so. I've made my fair share of snide remarks and mean statements. I've said things when it would have been nicer to have left them unsaid, but I can tell you one thing, it's stopping now. From now on I will ask myself "Is it true? Is it necessary? and Is it kind?" before I post and if I can't answer those with a "yes" then I will not post. This meanness to each other has to stop and if no one else is willing, then I say "Let it begin with me".
The ultimate authority's grace and mercy is sufficent. Look to him and he problems are not all that important any more. Ted
We love you, Susie
Oh yes, we dooooooooo
When you are not near us
We are blueeeeeeeeeee
Oh Susieeeeeeeeee
We love you!
Hooray! I hope this will be a new beginning.
Thanks to all, it will be better.
I VOTE THAT THE BRUGMANSIA FORUM BE SHUT DOWN PERMANENTLY AND NEVER REOPENED!
THEN ALL OF THE IDIOTS (FROM BOTH SIDES) THAT ARE KEEPING THIS THREAD GOING WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO BUT GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY IN THE DIRT.
AT THIS POINT I REALLY DON'T GIVE A [deleted] WHO GETS MAD AT ME FOR POSTING THIS CAUSE THIS HAS GONE ON FOR WAY TOO LONG.
I PAID $15 TO BE ABLE TO COME TO THIS PLACE AND ENJOY MYSELF . THE CHANCES OF THAT EVER HAPPENING AGAIN ARE NO MORE.
IT TRULY AMAZES ME THAT A PLANT CAN HAVE SO MUCH CONTROL OVER PEOPLES LIVES,TO CAUSE THEM TO ACT THE WAY THAT ALL OF THE SUPPOSED GROWN UPS ARE ACTING ON HERE. ALL OF YOU NEED TO STOP AND REALIZE THAT THIS IS DAVES GARDEN AND DAVE AND ONLY DAVE IS IN CONTROL HERE.
Steel Datura, it is apparent to me that one, and only one person in this forum refuses to let go of the ugliness, and that individual is unquestionably you. Only you have failed to apologize or to accept any culpability for the problems that exist on this forum. It doesn't take much penetration to discover that you are unwilling to relinquish the quarrel. I do not know you, but I certainly don't like you. I can perceive from your endlessly ranting posts that you are ill natured and abusive. That is not insult, that is a demonstrable fact, for the truth of which I refer any reader to your last post following tiG's very humble and candid apology.
Without forbearance and courtesy to one another, these groups cannot exist at all. If this one ceases to exist, you will have only yourself to blame.
It is necessary to censor and suspend members who ceaselessly quarrel with and insult other forum members. This is for the good of ALL of us.
I make no secret of the fact that I am a proud member of BGI, as well as of Dave's Garden and GardenWeb. I believe most people here heartily wish that you could hold your tongue.
Vickey
Steel_datura,
I would expect nothing less from you than an attack.
I noticed your sign up date was 8/29/03. You wouldnt know how things "used to be".
I also can't quite figure out what your part in this whole thing is (mine either, for that matter). It appears that you have contributing NOTHING to the brug forum (could be mistaken, but couldnt find anything) but yet you seem to be such an authority on the different groups and individual people. Strange!!
Yes, Hesperas, I'm sure proud BGI members would like me to hold my tongue.
And yes, I can see how calling me ill-natured and abusive is not an insult to BGI members that have populated this thread. You think it takes away from the questions that all BGI members have dodged since my posts, if you continue to put in on me.
However,the questions are still hanging...waiting for rebuttal....Next time please send your next member to refute my posts if they bother BGI so much. Being insulting isn't hiding those questions but it is clarifying the overall temperment of the BGI group when it comes to aggressiveness and it's disdain for having a mirror put up to its' face.....
Credibilty......lost....
MsJen,If I remember right Steel_Datura was here during the fall of Ludger,she had good questions for the officers of BGI then,and was not answered.
Since I am not a Proud member there any longer,it is not of concern to me as to how the finances of that site are handled.
Susie, It took great courage to honestly look inside oneself and then publically admit ones own shortcomings. I applaud you and your honesty and your want to go forward in peace.
Trish
I see yet another BGI opinion about me....
I wait patiently for a BGI member who won't resort to trying me in the open Forum but to actually address anything...anything at all as far as what is considered untrue by BGI.
As long as Dave keeps this thread open, i will point out those questions. This current behavior is identical to the Ludger Thread. Ignore the facts, "kill the Messenger"....
One thing if you will, Msjen....Please forward your findings of no evidence of my involvement in the brug Forum to Hesperus and Loretta. They're mistakenly under the impression that I won't own up to culpability in this war.
I said I wasn't part of these wars and I appreciate you validating my assertion.
Credibility is a terrible thing to waste......
I just got home from work and see that the loudest and most frequent poster in any fight has been at it again.
steel_datura now has nine replies (maybe more by the time I'm done typing) to this thread.
Did anybody stop to wonder who is this steel_datura and why is this fight so important to her?
Click on her name and you will find out nothing, other than that she has been a member not quite a year and has started one thread.
Where did she come from?
Well, some time ago she joined BGI after her husband Tarkus (ebay name) had been warned by email that he was about to spend a lot of money on a fake Double Pink brug on ebay.
When she joined BGI she was very thankfull for that warning. Her screen name then was Eva, she didn't say much until some members ganged up to have Ludger banned. Eva was quick to join the fight. After that battle was won, Eva dropped out of sight and so did most of the other members that had fought so hard to have him banned.
Some time later that same fight started here, the same people ganged up to have Ludger banned from DG. Out of the blue comes steel_datura, nobody knows who she is, but she knows everybody and everything, and quickly becomes the loudest and most frequent poster on that thread. She keeps posting and ripping people apart under the cover of a new identity.
Fortunately steel_datura is not as smart as she thinks and her cover is blown, but too late to have any bearing on the outcome of that fight.
Ludger is banned, and many of us quit posting in this forum.
Some more time goes by and another fake brug is up for auction on ebay. Somebody is trying to get in on the money and tries to sell a fake Mountain Magic with a photo that had been taken off a german brug site.
A warning is posted on all the brug sites including Garden Web. That thread is quickly posted on by Tarkus (remember steel_datura/Eva's husband's ebay name) who basically defends the fraudulent seller by trying to say that MM wasn't properly named etc. etc. The discussion gets heated and is deleted off GW. After that Tarkus makes two lame attempts at posting on a couple of threads, then drops off that scene never to be back.
The only reason she posted there, was to try to ruin reputations.
Steel_datura has in approximatley one year gone from being saved from buying a fake brug, to being the self proclaimed bearer of the battle flag on one side of this fight.
Why is she doing this? I don't know, but she was never treated badly at BGI.
Maybe she just likes to fight, maybe she likes the attention. My guess is that it is a pathetic attempt to belong to a group, to be a part of the the inner circle.
I don't even think the inner circle appreciates her methods, and I don't think she is as popular as she thinks she is.
steel-datura has an agenda and it is not for the good of DG or the community as she claims.
steel_datura has the gift of gab and I have no doubt that she will come roaring back in here with her tenth post to rip me apart.So just have at it steel_datura.
I know I'm no better than some to keep this fight going, but I'm tired of steel_datura getting away with lies, acting like she is the almighty herself, thinking she can close a case just because she said so. I'm tired of steel_datura's dishonest attempts to ruin peoples reputations.
At least I fight an honest fight, everywhere I go I am Paintedlady. I don't hide under multiple personalities.
I am a member of BGI, but I'm also a member of Dave's Garden and ABADS.
I wrote this post all by myself, did not consult anybody else, so when the attack comes, attack me, not BGI.
Eva, why is it you always bring it back to questions of what we do on a site you are not a member of? that is between our members on that forum. If you say you aren't a part of it, why are you so insistent on keeping it going when many people are trying for peace?
SD, More incomprehensible rants. Nothing substantive ever. If you weren't such a determinededly small person, I could almost pity you.
But I will defend my rational friends on this forum and BGI who have done nothing to deserve such eternal rancor and have been gracious enough to admit blame and beg pardon. Would that you were big enough to do the same.
*stumbles back in*
shouts to da masses... "i gots popcorn!!' Bring yer lawnchairs, folks, cuz this show is hilarious!!!!!
oh, say you guys? could ya add a bit of bloodshed now?
i mean, come on.... if ya really really wanna kill each other, do it right, for chrissakes.
ok, back to the show now, you guys.... (i know i can count on ya not to stop, right??)
Nice rambling diversion, paintedlady...It took you a day to write that, I see...Discrediting me is BGIs solution...Hmmm, notice that the above questions haven't been answered at all??? Weave your personal campaign of distortions against me as a group, it doesn't change the facts evident on this thread.
Tig, just like in the Ludger thread, you refuse to answer the questions. And Yes, I'm no longer a part of BGI by being banned for the reason I was abusive to a Official of BGI on DG during that thread. You didn't answer those questions and took the easy way out by banning me...The question was one of credibility for lying about banning Ludger for the same type of behavior that he presented on DG...
Credibility was lost when you started a knockdown drag out fight on DG, knowing you lied.
Nobody from BGI has attempted an an olive branch or anything that resembles taking any responsibility. Stop the lies and just dispute the facts....Then peace will reign...
BGI members have populated this thread with accusations and abuse till someone had to step forward. I did and expected the attacks....
Maybe if BGI wants to try to wage this personal campaign so bad, I'll start an independant website so we can bring all accusations to fact or fiction...Get your paperwork ready....
But until then, answer the questions about your concerted behavior by your members who have not ever been abused...anywhere and the obvious intent.....
I continue to wait patiently.....
Ganging up on Eva does not solve this problem. Eva had little to do with the causes of any of this. Making her the scapegoat solves nothing. And a gang up appears to me as unfair. She had no part in the cause of this rift, and I guess as so many others on here who have given their opinion didn't either, she wanted her say. I think you all have ground her into the mud enough. Payback should be complete
Blaming her for Ludger's association with Dave's being terminated, is false. As I recall Ludger came on one night and made some very odd, rambling comments at no ones prodding and within those comments Ludger asked Dave to remove him. Dave complied. You can hardly blame Eva for that.
I think Dave wanted us to work out our differences and to act as mature adults. I do not see that happening. I know I should not even look at this thread anymore, but I am drawn to it as my eyes would be to a car wreck as I drive down the freeway. Knowing I should avert my eyes if I can't be of help but somehow I keep looking at it unfold, counting the dead bodies on the side of the road. It is like a bad reality show.
Maybe before anyone else posts, we should all step back and reflect on what the goal of this thread should be. Is it to mend fences to where at least some sort of civility can be maintained or are we going to fight to the death and let the most blood thirsty side win?
I think we should declare the purpose so those of us who want to play with knives have time to sharpen them, and those of us who do not have the stomach for blood can bow out.
So1, I am appealing to you as a rational individual who is capable of examining evidence and forming a just opinion. Yes, there is a quarrel going on here. But have you yourself never been the victim of an irrational and quarrelsome person?
I don't believe there are many of us who can claim that distinction. Do you typically run from conflict or do you face it courageously and defend yourself and your friends?
Strife is a fact of life. There will ALWAYS be contentious people who are spoiling for a fight. However, in my opinion, bullies deserve to be put down and silenced, and the truth is all important in this forum as it is anywhere else in life.
There is nothing evil about disagreement. But I have seen instances of unkindness and innuendo from SD that I can honestly say I have NEVER seen from tiG or Terry or any of the other members here who have been her constant victims.
I invite you to review the posts and form your own just conclusion about this. I have never seen tiG or Terry behave rudely or make unkind innuendoes about another person's cherished work. They have been invariably polite, and merely refuted lies and defended their own claim to honesty. None of us would do less. I respectfully declare to you that is is mere santimoniousness to asssert otherwise.
So1 has only joined Daves today hesperus.
You know Hesperus, I sure do not want to be sharpening my knife. I do not even know you. But you have it all wrong. The entire current fight is about what tig and Snow have done and orchestrated over the last 2 years and what others' response have been to them. I am glad that within their circle of friends they are well thought of, but in my circle of friends so am I.
The truth serious is, that they are just as much to blame for this as I am or anyone else. They have not been kind. They have not be free of nasty innuendoes. They have been rude! That is the problem. Do you really think that so many of us are just off our rocker and feel so unhappy with them because they are all sweetness and light? Get real. We are a substantial number here to tell you different. The fact that they did not share all that went on, does not surprise me.
The only way this is going to work if we all admit our complicity in this and agree to go on our separate ways without spewing any more rancor. And when we see each other in the corridors of Dave's, if we cannot nod in passing then we agree not to stick out our tongues either.
Too much nastiness and lies have happened for the 2 sides ever to be friendly, but there is no reason that the circle of hatred has to be enlarged to include any more people.
I was and still am a member of BGI, but will not renew my subscription. This is the lowest thing yet that I have seen them do. Everything is about one person there, and it is always, (THEY DON'T LIKE ME, THEY ARE JEALOUS OF ME, THEY, THEY, THEY THIS, THEY THAT) , so I left. It is one big pity party at that place. I thought that I had found a nice place to share and be shared with seeds, plants, etc. Sure, they don't say things to your face, they IGNORE your e-mails.
hesperus, I sincerely hope you never have to hear their crying, or the bitterness they themselves write into the BGI forums, but I am sure you have seen the crying posts there. SteelDatura is not known to me, but, SHE is and has been telling the truth from where I stand and from what I have read about Ludger and even she has seen it in the short time she has been around. One brave person here SD. Ludger ASKED TO BE REMOVED from Dave's and he was. I was a member at BGI when BIG OFFICERS banned him there. It makes me not want any of these darned plants that I have, in fact, when they had their last fight, I got rid of all the cuttings. I don't want any reminders of these people, especially in my daily life.
No-one needs to gang up on anyone, just tell the truth. If it is the financial aspect of BGI that is in question then don't change the subject, because I for one, want to know too. Well, I am a member also, and have never been told anything as far as finances go. I send in donations of Labels for the seed bank and baggies, then I was told by someone else that they have the funds to pay for these things. So, If I get banned there along with everyone else, so be it.
All of you that have businesses, probably lost most of the business you could of had because of the way you DELICATELY said you would still help people. RIGHT. Thank god I don't have a business. And this folks, is just my opinion.
Antoinette
Can't we just all give 'Peace a chance'???
Kell, I can only judge of any individual's character by what I have myself witnessed of it. I stand by my statement that I have NEVER seen a rude or nasty post penned by either of them.
I have, however, observed what I, not to put too fine a point on it, can only describe as "execrable" behavior and language from others who seek to discredit them.
I don't form my opinions on character by second hand or by hearsay. I know what I have read, and I know who has been most to blame in continuing this eternal friction.
If an apology cannot end it, then what can? Are you to forever hold a spiteful grudge? That is not my idea of fairness, and that is not the way I would want to be treated. We have all perpetrated acts about which we are ashamed and have repented. If forgivness is not forthcoming here, then what next?
You are right that I do not know you. But I reserve the right of every human being in the universe to judge by my own senses what is and is not considerate or humane behavior and form my own conclusions as to one's character based on those observations.
I have no quarrel with you, and I don't wish to have. On the contrary, I respect you and your achievements as a gardener and a hybridizer. But tiG and Terry are my friends. I know them well, and I staunchly maintain that I have known and witnessed nothing in their behavior that wasn't courteous, honest and fair. Of how many people can one make that claim? And if they have not always been perfect, I doubt that others have been, either. But for me, that apology would have been sufficient.
I very seldom post here, but I read it faithfully. I felt compelled to say something as that is what friends do! But I do not make a habit of defending behavior, even in my friends, which I know is contemptible. And I don't wish to look sanctimonious here, either. I'm just trying to say and do what I feel is fair and just and owing to those people whom I do know, love and respect. I trust that you would do the same.
dear hesperus,
first, i'll point you to a post i made under TuttiFrutti's nick in this thread. please re-read it before reading further.
now. i claim no exemption from what is currently occuring here. HOWEVER, and this is a major point, what IS currently transpiring WILL NOT be solved by allowing a continuation of this battle. why? it comes from a simple truth, actuallly.... the truth being, 'any problem, to be a problem, must contain a lie. if it were truth, it would unmock'.
now, i'll explain that one a bit.
here, we have folks that stand on two sides n shout at each other, each side claiming that they have the truth. THAT IS A LIE. lets use mathematics to bring it into focus. if one adds two numbers, there is a third number that will be a result of that action. that simple problem is the basis of understanding a lie. something about what was said or done is wrong, if one does not get the result expected. the players of this current battle have left the 'truth' far behind, or hide it, hence there can be no solution. i'm not concerned here with what they did or did not do. only in the search for the basic truths that hold this problem in place.
fact... someone transgressed.
fact... someone responded to that transgression incorrectly. why? cuz there is usually recourse to justice on any website. GOING AFTER THE PERSON IN OPEN FORUMS IS JUST AS MUCH OF A TRANSGRESSION AS THAT COMMITTED BY THE ORIGINAL TRANSGRESSOR.
successful website owners know that they must keep problem creators out. they also know that they dare not shoot too quickly, lest they shoot the wrong person.
also, i might add... good roads n fair weather could be a better response than trying to justify or explain away ones actions. if someone has damaged your reputation, then submit the post, forum topic, email, etc... to management here. if you know of other folks that have been attacked, suggest to them to do the same.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES RESPOND.
for me, if someone here were to attack me in ANY fashion, they will get put on immediate ignore for the duration. i have no shortage of friends worldwide via the net. not having them or anyone else here as a friend would not bother me in the least.
as a last comment. if you do report, leave out any comments about how your feelings or ego or pride or reputation (unless, of course, you suffer financial loss and can prove it) were damaged. that's a given as you couldn't be bothered to report if they weren't. management needs FACTS, not human emotional reactions.
hersperus, then you don't know Paintedlady, trust me
On BGI, we would not allow a discussion of this nature that trashed Daves Garden, Gardenweb or ABADS. Furthermore, none of us would presume that it was our right to understand the finances, policies, membership criteria or posting practices of another site.
When I am on BGI, I wear my BGI hat. When I am on DG, I am first and foremost a proud DGer. It is totally out of character for me to think about BGI while on Daves. But let me put on my BGI hat for just a moment, and then I will think long and hard before ever posting to the Brug Forum here again.
There is NOTHING to explain or justify to the Daves Garden membership about BGI. I am offended by the unsupported insinuations that BGI has something to hide. If some of us need to avoid posting on the Brug forum in order for things to be peaceable at Daves, FINE. What is good for Daves Garden should be enforced here - - but stop this incessant banter that somehow BGI is an issue.
Gourd1 I was just posting to you today, looking for you and missing you... I cant hardly belive what I just read :(((
Steel Datura, you are a moron... plain and simple that loves to try and post like you are some sort of saint, when actually you are as bad a sinner as I've ever seen.....you are truly a mean spirited clown...
what I just posted has nothing to do with BGI... I truly think Steel Datura is a fool...
I come here and read a lot.....no one bosses me and brugs are not my LIFE....
I just wanted to post to Steel Datura because she is such pathetic loser I cant MAKE myself shut up about her...my oh my she must be needing some clippings or seeds....
Gourd1 I still miss you and love you as my palie......the rest of you Brug Forums "Friends" .. I dont know you and Im not getting into this fight....I just cant stand Steel Datura and her stupid posts..
hugz
Lexy
OOPS!!
I shouldnt have posted to this.....Steel Datura already knew I felt this way about her/him/it....
I dont think I've EVER met ONE person, or even read a post by anyone in the 6 years I've been online that just grates my last nerve as this sanctimonious moron....always for peace and quite but full of bile and hatefulness....
anyways.....
fight if you will.....I have ice cream, cigarettes, cokes and a puppydog to mess with now......
hugz
Lexy
Well I for one was glad to see Gourd post,surprized to see her speak up,she is one of the kindest,most giving people I have met on Daves.
Yes Brugaddict,lets give peace a chance.
I have an idea.
Since I only got to use 1 month of my BGI subscription,you can take the balance and give everyone a free 3 day pass,we can carry this discussion on over there,and muddy up your garden,it has been pretty peaceful here since Luggie left.And I could have more discussions with Pardon,since he bowed out of here.
This time lets do it like here,no edit button,and this time have it so tiG does not hold posts till she previews and edits them.
I have been a member of davesgarden for a long time. I have seen this fight from the beginning. In fact, some of it started years ago when Monika sent me seeds to distribute to the people who graciously paid for her membership.
I find this fighting deplorable and I don't see any good coming from all the name calling that's going on.
I used to be a BGI member, my membership ran out, I didn't renew it as my Dad was dying, I am too busy and don't have a lot of time to post. I used to be a member at GW also but not anymore, same reason. I have never been a member of ABADS, just no time. I have kept my membership here because I enjoy reading the posts, seeing all the new brugs etc. I don't post much as I'm too busy and not around alot.
I just wish everyone would think before they write nasty comments to people. My Mom used to say " If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"
oh wow root doctor....and here I thought you were a NICE person.....I love Brugie and if she loves you, so I thought you were wonderful, without even knowing you....maybe you are.. Gourd1 is so precious to me....I cant imagine what all that terrilbe post was about.....I dont even care.....it just upset me to see her get into this mess........
I dont care about the fight here.....I just care that Steel Datura is a moron and thats upsetting to my gentle spirit HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAA
hugz
Lexy
Well now........this has certainly lost all semblance of debate with this last post.
My suggestion to Dave to save any more discomfort to the innocent members of Daves... Move this thread to one of the open forums on BGI, without the edit function.
Dave set up BGI and has access to everything there.
Maybe this mess can get moved off Daves.
I am a nice guy palie and S_D is a friend.
PS to Steel Datura.....in case you wondered, I really REALLY dont care for you.. and I MEANT to call you those names...Im not here to make peace or apologise ....I said what I meant... and it has nothing to do with the folks this fight is about....it has to do with Steel Datura being a fool.......
OK IM REALLY gone now......
how will you miss me if I dont go??
hugz
Lexy
Gee Lexy... that's a hoot. We're all glad you got that off your chest. I'm sure Steel_Datura will be gald too.
Now I see why a garden has to be weeded.
Lexy, DON'T GO, I truly miss you, you make me smile (and I know you don't mean those things you just said).
This thread really upset me because it is all about money deep down. It is covered with sweet words at times, but it is still about the businesses these people have and the money they would make or not make and they try to sound otherwise. Dave was right when he said it was about GREED, MONEY and whatever else he said. It is so sad.