Israel and Palestine are at it again

Dave,
I don't think that by associating ABADS/Allegra/BGI as groups that "hate" each other is fair to those individuals that belong to several of these groups or is a fair representation to those members who could care less what one group is doing. These are individuals who have created this tension, not groups.

Patricia H. Reynolds
ABADS - Vice President

I have been holding myself back from posting to this thread
And seeing the sentence below is the thing that gets me most

"The troubles here will only cease when everyone who posts here is made to feel welcome."

Who is here that is not made to feel welcome?
My Lord,if you have ever seen a more helpful,generous and kind group of people I'd like to know where they are...

How many of you have been given seeds,cuttings or whole rooted plants
Without having to buy it outright?
Or bid on it on ebay?
Yes, there are some plants that are coveted,and its very hard to get them when they first come out,and growers have been know to be stingy with them
But wait a year or so and you can get it for postage
and in the middle of summer not too many want to cut on their blooming brugs...so ,wait till fall

And if someone here has been made to feel unwelcome ,ask yourselves WHY

Are you kind and helpful to the people you post to?
Or do you take an holier than thou attitude
Or Make people feel they are not as good as yourself because YOU feel you are the most knowledgeable,and you couldn't possibly be wrong
And attack people verbally when they make a statement that YOU do not agree with,even when you have no idea what is going on?
Or falsely accuse people of something?
Or have temper tantrums when people don't fall into line with your beliefs
Do you only post when you have something you want a pat on the back for?
Do you jump in and take sides in old arguments that don't involve you?
If so,gee,I guess you wouldn't be made to feel welcome

This old war is getting OLD

But there are always people who thrive on getting old wounds ripped back open,and only show up when there is trouble

Those are the people that are probably made not to feel welcome

This is our home,and yet we are only guests in Dave's garden.
We are a family and families bicker.....
But we will rally around our family when we feel attacked,or threatened
and protect our family,garden and home
And thats what Dave's is to us
Our Family
Our Garden
Our Home

So if you have been made to feel unwelcome ,ask yourselves why,and think before you post
Its fine to have loyalty,but ask yourself
Is it right to say hurtful things?
Is it right to belittle someone?
Is it right to take sides and only hear one side of the story?

Some people will never be friends but ,that too happens in a family

Don't judge people by a few actions
Look at the long run......leapords never change their spots

Thank you Dave, Trish, and CC all very well points made. First I want to apoligize for my major part in burying threads, I wasn't doing it to be mean, I was simply seprating what was going to be a fight, always is and always will be. This thread died a very natural death twice but yet kept getting brought back up, with the players not saying anything to anyone else, just showing off, there were new people asking questions who were getting ignored, very sad.

For 2 mths this forum has been very peaceful. It is not a ABADS / BGI fight, it is indeed two groups of people that can't and will never get along. One group seperated themselves from here and created their own garden. Those of us that stayed here love it here, most of the people here are new and had no idea of the depth of old wounds, because for a while they had not been seen in this garden.

So you have to ask yourself, if you think a forum is so much better than here, the people are more friendly, and you chose to post more over there, why are you coming over here? To cause a problem? We don't go to your garden to sow weeds, please refrain from dropping your seeds here.

There are people who belong to more than one site, and they come to these sites to post to everyone, not just display for the "pats" on the back and run away. The new growers deserve so much more than that.

CC, you ramble on in such an honest and insightful way.Thank you.As a newcomer to brugs and this forum I can't say I feel "welcome" in one sense of the word.welcome is,to me, a term close to respect. Both of which are not 'rights',but something to be earned.In time, if I am fortunate enough to have learned from the Kell's, Brugie's Monkia's,Root's, and others so well versed in brugs & things, enough to be considered 'knowledgable', then perhaps a welcome will be in line. Till then I'll feel just fine if everyone will accept my questions, photos and random outbursts with a grain of salt.After all, thanks to Dave, isn't this the home of the largest collection of the worlds best authorities on Brugmansias ? Whiskers X L'Amour

Here's Enchanted X ? I cry, I spy no Y, why? sigh!

"The troubles here will only cease when everyone who posts here is made to feel welcome."

Certainly not an ultimatum. But some posters, if not pointedly ignored, are not treated respectfully, that is, made to feel that their presence and postings are welcome. An example would be having one's photo posting bumped to the back pages, or having suggestions made as to one's veracity.

Anyone who is a subscribed member here has access to all the forums, including this one, which should be a common ground between members of any or all other brug sites.

And the love of this genus should be another common meeting ground that transcends other differences.

I also have to agree that a brug "group" cannot "hate" another "group", but a very few individuals can harbor hatreds.

Why would someone continue to come here? Because there are a large number of members who are not involved in the ugliness, and because they are worth getting to know.

And because everyone has their experiences growing and hybridizing brugs, and their stories are all worth knowing.

I don't understand! Since it has been said that it is only a few people who don't care for each other why don't they refrain from posting on each others threads. It seems to me that there are plenty of threads here for people to socialize on. I am mostly a lurker on Dave's but I do enjoy seeing what people are growing. I am a member at BGI but like and respect people from both Dave's and BGI. If it was'nt so sad it would be amusing. The participants play each other like a fine violin. True respect demands that one puts aside their own personal feelings and do what is best for the community. IMO Thank you.

Edited for typo>

This message was edited Aug 1, 2004 7:01 PM

I for one was not made to feel very welcome here several months back. I'm sure most of you who belonged to Dg at the time know what i'm talking about.

I did something that I promised i'd do which was to share brug cuttings with any and all newbies who wanted them,after my first year of growing them.

I took the time to cut,bag and tag over over 500 cuttings and mailed them all out only to be verbaly attacked and humiliated on this forum because someone found that they had a problem with a possible disease in a brug that may not even have been one that I sent out, and I was honest enough to take responsability for the problem though no one new for sure how or where it originated.

I was made to feel very unwelcome by people that I thought of as friends,but just let one thing go wrong with a plant that you sent someone and you'll soon find out who your true friends really are. Boy it didn't take me long to find out.

This is why you do not see me posting on this forum but once in a blue moon anymore. I have a close group of friends that I stay in contact with via telephone and that keeps the problems to a minimum and I don't have to worry if every word that comes out of my mouth is going to offend someone.

I know this is slightly off topic here but, CC wanted to know who was made to feel unwelcome on this forum and I for one was. So I just grow my plants now and keep to myself in my own little world and mind my own business.

Though I do visit daily I just try and remain behind the curtain out of sight and out of mind. Not my mind of course!

This whole recent thing started with me and tiG posting a couple of photos, and since I feel like some comments made in this thread are directed at me I have something to say about that.

CC said,
"Do you only post when you have something you want a pat on the back for?"

No, if I needed a pat on the back I would be calling my BF.
I post here when I feel like I have something to say, or show, that a normal brug loving person would appreciate.

CC said,
"Is it right to say hurtful things?"

No it's not right, yet this is what was said about tiG in a thread just the other day.

"You keep joking like that and you'll give poor tiG high blood pressure... :)~
Or a heart attack, lol."
http://davesgarden.com/t/446541/

TLynn said,
"First I want to apoligize for my major part in burying threads, I wasn't doing it to be mean, I was simply seprating what was going to be a fight, always is and always will be."

The posting of two different brugs would never have turned into a fight if the resident experts on this forum hadn't chosen to turn it in to a fight.
If those posts had been left alone they would have ended up on page two soon enough.

TLynn said,
"why are you coming over here? To cause a problem?"

I'm coming over here because I'm a member of Dave's Garden. I can post once a year or everyday, it's my choice.
I have never said anything bad about anybody and I never will. I'm not causing problems. I just posted a photo.

TLynn said,
"We don't go to your garden to sow weeds, please refrain from dropping your seeds here."

That last sentence pretty much sums it up to me. Some people think that this is their garden, and if I'm not liked becase of the people I know, or the organization I belong to, I should stay out of the garden.
It might come as a shock to some here, but this is Dave's Garden. No matter what organization we belong to, we are all guests here.

TLynn also said,
"Those of us that stayed here love it here,"

Could that be because the people that weren't wanted where successfully chased off?
I felt uncomfortable enough that I chose to stay away.

I think it's time for everybody to see Dave's Garden as the neutral zone. If you want to dwell on old garbage do it in you own garden. If you want to be the only expert, or the only one with a pretty brug, If you want to decide who can be on the front page, do that in your garden.

This one is open to the public.

Edited to insert the word recent in the first sentence.






This message was edited Aug 1, 2004 10:47 PM

Sure hope this forum is here tomorrow for us to enjoy ;(

This is getting ridiculous. None of these things happened in a vacuum. And none of this started with 2 posts from the other day. Things have been done to cause such reactions on both sides. If anyone thinks that we all haven’t read things posted about ourselves on the different forums you are nuts. No forum that I can see can claim the high road. And no group is totally at fault either. We could all list grievances we all have felt from others tongues. I could explain in detail here about the heart attack remark that was made, but why bother? Susie was reacting to a past nastiness done to her. Telling you all about it won't change the hurt she felt at the time. It is over. I have a few of mine own. What good does it do? None of us are innocent so it is stupid to make believe you are. And righteous indignation should be saved for the angels. At least Tracey owned up to what she did and apologized.

All I can say, is again, any forum is what you put into it. Give of yourself, and others will respond. Have an interest in others here and they will have an interest in you! You get what you give.

If you only show up when there is trouble, then trouble is all you will get.

I know there are some on Daves who feel the same way about BGI. They feel unwelcomed and hated by some on BGI. Is BGI at fault? Who knows. There is no law that says others must love us or even like us.

I refuse to fight with any of you. I am joyous today. It is a beautiful day and I have a great evening yet to come.

It truly is a wonderful life. Oh yea!

So my suggestion to all of us is to go out for a breather and have some fun. And if we decide we want to participate in this group which is really more of a family, we should then come back and start posting in an open and friendly manner from a place of goodness in our hearts instead of such nastiness.

And I just bet we all we will be welcomed here. Even you and me, John ! Oh and Kris, David and Tracey too!

And if that fails, Shadowgirl has the right idea. Just pass over the threads or posts you find offensive.

Very well said Kris.
This is not a BGI vs ABADS thing.It never has been.Many are members of both organizations.This problem was started by one woman and has spread to a small group of her friends.
She has it in for all the original BGI members and,with the help of her friends, has made it her business to ruin this forum for those members.

I've fought long and hard not to post anything here, because every time I do, I'm blasted. But as I was the one that had the heart attack and it was not a secret, I would like to hear the explanation for that remark.

I'd also like to see one post from BGI that would fall under "If anyone thinks that we all haven’t read things posted about ourselves on the different forums you are nuts"

I never came to post a picture except for one reason, it was beautiful and I wanted to share it. If you can't believe it's that simple, I'm very sorry.

I see certain individuals insist on campaigning their cause though I hear no outcry from the majority for an "explanation".This is exactly the type of nonsense that perpetuates the problem.

Get it through your heads people...The majority don't care what your personal problems are or your perceived insults....

I stated my opinion that we should just let it rest for the good of the communitys' piece of mind but apparently some choose to whine that someone hurt their feelings......GROW UP!

I'm only back cuz paintedlady has decided to line her litter box of an argument with one of my posts.

I will say, not in any way to be taken as a defense, that my joke was taken as such by tiG as was my earlier joke to Calalily in that same thread where I called her "evil" for keeping us in suspense on what the Pink was.

For PL to try to explain that as "hurtful things" is actually alot funnier than my jokes.....lol

It is perhaps inappropriate to presume to know the minds of the "majority". Although you may wish to hear no more, and choose to categorize the postings of others in a negative way, this is still a "forum" and open to remarks by anyone who cares to make them. A cruel "joke" is not made funny by merely adding an "lol" to it.

Well, I went out to dinner and just came back and I can see nothing has changed.

I can also see I was in error, obviously tig and gone to seed are the only ones whose doo does not smell. I guess that is why it is such good manure. I so apologize for thinking it did.

You know you all just like to fight.

I am going to make this forum what I want and go back to enjoying it as I always have. Good bye and good luck!

Since I am feeling a little blue, I will go back to singing this soulful song as only I can:
Please join me

You saw me standing alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own
Blue Moon
You know just what I was there for
You heard me saying a prayer for
Someone I really could care for
And then there suddenly appeared before me
The only one my arms will hold
I heard somebody whisper please adore me
And when I looked to the Moon it turned to gold
Blue Moon
Now I'm no longer alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own
And then there suddenly appeared before me
The only one my arms will ever hold
I heard somebody whisper please adore me
And when I looked the Moon had turned to gold
Blue moon
Now I'm no longer alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own
Blue moon
Now I'm no longer alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own


then again maybe I am!
LOL Bu that is OK with me!

I'm sorry, Pardoncanda...

Last night your post was deleted before I could respond but now I see it's back....Computers are funny that way...lol

Sorry to disagree with you but the "lack of outcry" is precisely the indication of the majority. Most do not want to be your therapist in your soap opera. If they did choose that, this thread would be populated with an "outcry". Are we clear on the meaning of "outcry now"?? Case closed on that one...

As far as choosing to hear no more....I want this petty whining about personal stuff to stop, like the majority, cuz it has no place in this Forum. This is not a battleground but about brugs. This kind of siliness is not beneficial to anyone but apparently is filling the needs of the few that yearn attention. While people like yourself get
self-righteous and use freedom of speech as an excuse, the reality is you're trying to sell your point of view as though it's an election. Inappropriate, selfish, and boorish behavior isn't a welcome sight on a brug Forum. Take it somewhere else, please.... Case closed on that one....

Trying to attack as many members here to push your "conspiracy theory" doesn't wash either. Trying to catagorize my joke as a "cruel joke" is beyond moronic. Please refer to that thread and find tiG respond with a smiley face. Wow, that's odd, isn't it??? She was sooo offended that she smiled and never said anything negative. Good work, Dick Tracy.....You ferreted out another insult....lol TiG has posted on this thread and refers to another post and says she has had a heart attack in the past. I don't know tiG personally nor her medical history (I'm afraid it's not in her profile here) so that leaves me out in your quest for imaginary insults....Case closed on that one..

In closing, I would just say I think this whole thread should either go away or maybe be moved to a general discussion Forum cuz it has no business on our brug Forum. And please refrain from trying to drag me into this in the future cuz while I show no allegiance to any group, I show allegiance to this Forum and won't hesitate to speak my mind.....

As Dave has seen fit to not only remove the "edit" option but to restore a posting I saw fit to delete, and that he does not appear to honor his own mission statement and acceptable use policy, I will no longer participate in this forum.

The habit that some folks get into, where they make a post and then delete it a few hours later, is not going to be allowed in this thread. Don't post it if you don't want it read.

dave

You are all such infantile childish fools....this site and this forum are about gardening. If you have something evil, hateful, and moronic to say please just email each other in private. Let the rest of us get back to the reason we're on Dave's in the first place, that being gardening.
And would some of you please stop trying to speak for 'the majority' ........regardless of what you may think, your only one person without insight to what anyone else is feeling or wishing to express.

In my experience it is pretty hard to have an argument with someone who does'nt participate. It takes two sides to keep, shall I use a phrase coined earlier, the "poo" flying . After a while everybody involved is covered with it and the whole place stinks.

This is only one thread, if you don't wish to participate, don't read it.

Thanks Dave, way to go! Let 'em fight it out...... Then hoping we can all move on.

It's strange you echo my exact sentiment and then send a veiled point that I shouldn't speak for the majority, rikerbear...

It's common sense to be able to speak for the majority when we all sign up on a gardening web and not "As the World Turns".

Your comment would leave open the possibility that I'm wrong and the majority actually wants to hear this and that's obviously not the case....

If this were true, we would be reading nothing but gossip, not brugs. So please, don't speak for the majority either then.

So practice what you preach, rikerbear....If you have something to say to me, privately email me instead of the open Forum.....Let's save the "majority" from more of this...

I've been a member of Dave's for awhile. Don't post much on Dave's because I am very active on BGI and there is only so much time to spend on-line. But I check it out a few times a week to see new brugs, learn, and check out the People with Disabilities forum. Bonnie and most of the people on BGI I consider my friends but do I think some of them have a part in keeping this fued going. Yes and I have expressed that opinion to them. Last night I told Bonnie there is no reason to argue whether or not a brugmansia is choice. If it is, time will bear that out. If not, no amount of debate will make it so. Because I care about BGI and it enhances my life and I love Bonnie, I hope is that both remain healthy, happy, and continue to thrive. The other side involved I do not know except by seeing what they post and some of the pretty brugmansia they are responcible for hybridizing. I have a deep appreciation for the hybriders in the USA who through thier dedication and love for this plant have produced hybrids that can stand proudly beside any in Europe. It was not much fun being unable to obtain the brugs I could only see in pictures. While it is nice to see what is being produced in Europe I want to see pictures of brugs I can get. In fact I almost lost interest in them because of this problem until about a year ago. I don't no who started this fued, why it started, or why it continues when it is an exercise in futility, but I do know that it is hurting and dividing the brugmansia community. It is hurting the reputation of the US brugmansia community not only on these forums but in Europe, too. There are no people involved who do not have a responcibility for the hostility continuing. It is especially disturbing because it involves the very people who are the leaders and representatives of our community and organizations. Because people have a tendency to be loyal to their freinds they take sides and it becomes a hatefest. I challenge the leaders of these groups to do what they were chosen to do, either by a majority or by God's grace, and make this stop by whatever means necessary If that means that the people this whole fued started with need to sit down and face each other honestly maybe it is time that happend.

Thank you,
Loretta L Sorsby

I have to admit my confusion over the purpose of this thread, past Dave's initial opening comment.

If the tone of the thread was to truly reconcile differences and for old wounds to be healed, I would see the value that it might bring. But it appears that this thread is only fueling the flames of an old, tiresome fight.

Dave, you said - "Both groups are right in a lot of areas, and both groups are wrong in a few areas. The problem arises because they hate each other and, in their spirit of hate, cannot see to any possible resolution to their problems."

Please Dave - - - end this thread. More harsh words will only increase the hurt feelings and assist in perpetuating the discord.

Closing this thread down will only cause the problems to retreat back into the shadow.

My intention is to bring this stuff out in the open, and that has worked.

dave

This message was edited Aug 21, 2004 10:33 AM

I am new to Dg and I have been going to the site almost everyday and looking at the beautiful brugs posted here. Maybe someday I will have some beautiful brug's pictures posted too. I refused to think that there is a big feud going on between two goups of people and I believe that they are all professionals and very knowledgeable when it comes to plant and other things. It is just disheartening from a newbie point of view to see fighting between them.

I would like to learn more about brugs and other tropical plants...so can we all make peace and continue posting more pictures and info on plants?

Oh, I have some brugs they are small and maybe in 2 or 3 months they will start to bloom. I check it out everyday when I come home from work and they are growing fast, but no flowers yet.

Peace be with you

There have been almost 1700 hits re this thread, which indicates there is considerable interest. Most DG members do not have a clue what is going on - I cannot tell who is on which side. As owner of DG, Dave is the only person with authority to direct this forum (of course he may have moderators that assist), and he has allowed this thread, I assume, in order to attempt to clear the air, and IMO it's an excellent move. I know brugs and friends was previously closed, following an earlier hoop la. I hope it isn't closed again because it's the only reason I joined DG, tho I have discovered other helpful forums. Allowing this issue to be openly discussed is a step in the right direction. The only thing I find bothersome are the suggestions that the subject should be dropped - please do not speak for me or the 1700 people that are reading the thread. No one is forced to read, but the DG members that want to be in the know, should not be governed by the ones that don't want to read the thread. I suspect it will run it's course when the real players lose interest and the numbers drop. In closing I'd like to add that I still don't get the bump thing...how can to bump or not bump make anyone angry???

Sherrylike
If threads do not get posted to they eventually get bumped back
That is how this one keeps up at the top,because people keep posting
If you post to all the threads on page 2 all the ones on page 1 will shift to page 2 and the ones on page 2 will go to page 1
( I think thats how it works)

If you ask a question,and its a busy posting day,but no one answers your question ,it eventually gets shifted off to page 2,if you want to bring it up to page 1 again you can just write "bump" or "anyone have an answer" and that thread will be back on page 1

Many people here work full time and don't get on Daves as much as they'd like so don't feel bad about bumping a post back up where its on the front page and hopefully someone can see it who can answer your question
Just some advice....
don't make a habit out of it....LOL
It can cause a war.........

Just read all of the above and you'll see why I no longer come to this forum to post anything. It's not fun like it used to be.

I STILL HAVEN't FIGURED OUT WHY I RENEWED MY SUBSCRIPTION HERE BECAUSE NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE HERE.

IT'S ALL NONSENSE. HAVEN'T ANY OF YOU PEOPLE FIGURED OUT THAT THESE ARE JUST FLOWERS THAT ARE MAKING YOU ALL LOOK LIKE FOOLS? AND FOR THE MOST PART NONE OF YOU EVEN KNOW EACH OTHER SO WHY ALL THE ARGUING?

Don't get me wrong,i'm not taking any sides here but this is a bit rediculous.

CrestedChik, good explanation re the bump, but I don't think I'll ever understand why it's so awful; however, you can bet your aunt fanny that I'll never, ever bump anything, ya know!!

David, you said a mouthful!! When things get sticky in dogs, the smart ones back off and say, hey, for goodness sakes, this is a dog club!! It is almost impossible to believe, but dog people don't hold a candle to brug people. I never dreamed a gardening forum would be so lively, little did I know, whew!!!

BTW, the numbers are up to 1,900...

I've read this post over and over wondering what started it. I'm lost as usual, but wouldnt be me if i add my 2cents.
What i see happening is pure greed, lust and envy.
We all started with the same gene pool. Some have been fortunate to obtain pollen/seeds or whatnot through outside sources which has given them an opprotunity to create someone unusual.
I can remember when i looked at a new seedling hoping it was a double pink or something as remarkable. Now i've lost interest. There isnt enough room in the circle.
So many of the posts have taken a "haha, look what i have" tone and its disgusting. Won't tell the parentage? What a joke. EVERY seed is different..whats the big hairy deal about it?
I feel SO sorry for the new members who come to the forum asking for starts and they are sent to members pages that SELL them. Gee, 3/4 of the ones in my yard were GIVEN to me by a special person. I can remember someone wanting a few cuttings, and i sent an entire box. Who gave out HG 3 years ago??? But guess what, i had to buy seeds. Kept hoping i'd get an email saying, gee, i remember when you sent me these cuttings, the seeds are on me. Nope, didnt happen.
There are very few posts that i make comment to on the brug forum anymore. I'm not one of the ones "in the loop" so what i could i possibly have to offer?
Oh well, not sure if any of this even makes sense. Thinking someone should create a line with the words greed/lust and envy in it. Sure would sum it up.
jen
p.s., donnab, im not sure if i've told you thank you enough for the cuttings you GAVE me a few months ago. i thought about that while i was typing this

MsJen, you said it all, thats exactly how I FEEL here..I have mostly been ignored since I am not part of the "in" crowd (either one)..so I lurk and learn..

Originally I wanted to try a few brugs and the only one that cared enough to send me some was Glory. For that I will ALWAYS be in her debt. She was not selfish with her cuttings, she willingly shared, even with me, who she didnt even know...

I learned not to bother seeing if anyone else would be as generous and finally went to ebay to buy from Nestor. Its humiliating to ask and be ignored, when others are (willingly)offered cuttings from those that have them.

I am still here....to learn what I can about these plants...but probably will not participate much in this forum since I am NOT a glutton for punishment (or embarrassment) .

I have only been a member of Dave's Garden since February and I haven't posted much (only questions) but I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed it. Most of my co-workers, friends, and family (except my mom) think I'm obsessed with gardening. They don't have a clue as to how it makes me feel. When I stumbled on the DG website I just couldn't believe it! There were thousands of people just like me! I have visited most all of the forums and sometimes stay on much longer than I should (while I am at work) because I learn so much from everyone and can't get enough of the beautiful pictures. I remember when this forum was closed down before and I didn't really understand what had happened. Then I forgot about it and really, really enjoyed listening to all of the knowledgeable people and drooling over everyone's brugs. I actually received brug seeds from one very nice DG member. Another thing that amazed me and made me wish I was part of the group, so many of the members seemed to know one another personally and talked to each other as if they lived next door. What fun!

Now, I just don't understand this and it is so depressing to find out that all of this fighting is going on and that people I thought must be the friendliest people in the world (and gardners to boot) are really not as they seem. I can't believe I'm posting this -- I'm usually just a lurker, but I haven't noticed anyone else's post indicating the shock or betrayal I feel and I thought maybe it might cause some of you to step back and see the big picture. I'm not sure who all is involved but I would hope that it is a very small minority of Dave's Garden members and that you all can see how hurtful it is to the rest of us. I guess I'll sign off and stay off the Brugmansia and Friends forum for awhile until everything cools down. Thanks for listening.

I use to enjoy the forum but stay away mostly now, I agree with Msjen.

I am so sorry about the experiences of the last three posters. It is no fun to feel you are on the outside looking in while people seem to be having so much fun and comraderie. MsJens post got me thinking as I sat there writing out a check for 485.00 to a local magazine for advertising my small landscaping business. That is for three months of an 1/8 page black & white ad. Several of the people on this site and on BGI derive at least a portion of their income from brugmansia. They are professional horticulturalists or own businesses selling brugmansia. In addition, people such as myself and the three previous posters are their customer base. In fact, I have bought from several of them and been generally pleased.
Most businesses avoid alienating their customers but because of the use of aliases it is easy to hide your identity to those not in the loop. It does'nt seem quite fair to be able to promote yourself on a site but not be held responsible for behavior that in most of the business world would lose customers.
When an advertisemnet is placed in a magazine that has the look of an article or innoculus information, ethics and the law requires that a disclaimer be placed on it saying it is an advertisement. This warns the person viewing it that the person or organization that placed the item could have an ulterior motive so take what is there with a grain of salt. The privilage of being able to post pictures of your products at Dave's and other sites amounts to free advertising that no small business could begin to afford. Then to have people praise them and gush over them well that is just priceless.
If I were in the business of selling brugmansia I would do all in my power to protect that benefit. Including making sure I did not call attentiopn to it by interfering with anothers right to post a picture. Maybe if people who are in the business had to post with the picture that it amounts to an advertisemnt it would be more fair to all of the people excluded from the inner circle but whom part of your income is derived.

I have noticed this before, but have never said anything - I wasn't al-together sure if it was intentional. It is sad that people would do something like that.

I wasn't going to post to this thread but since were straying a little off topic here maybe I can give a shove back in the right direction....

I don't think this is all about flowers anymore. It's about hurt feelings, trust, pent up anger, and getting that last dig in.

It's so easy for someone not involved to come along and say "Let's all get along!" It's not like that anymore... some people can't get along and never will. The troubled waters run too deep. I think everyone does a pretty good job at trying their best to remain civil on these forums, all for the sake of a peaceful Dave's... but sometimes the conflicts come back to haunt us and this nastiness is spilled all over again in front of everyone. I'm bothered that the innocent by standers have to witness this ugliness in all it's glory. I keep wondering if this thread will still be here when I check back and so far it is ;) I think Dave's way to let it play out is a good idea - although his remark "90% of the people who read this may not even know what I'm talking about. For you guys, just ignore this ..." has kinda gone out the window here. There's no reason for newbies or people that aren't sure what's happening to get upset and feel shunned. DG is a big place full of all kinds of people... and believe it or not, spats happen from time to time on all the forums. I don't care how many web sites you belong to... if there's more then a few individuals involved there will be some tiffs that arise once in a while. It doesn't seem to matter how many times someone not involved here preaches "You're all pathetic! - Let's Get Along" .... It won't happen in a million years. I can say if this thread upsets you then don't read it.... but I know it's kinda hard to ignore a thread that has over 2000 views and 77 comments.

I don't think it's fair to see individuals singled out and brought to the forefront as if they were the cause of all this. It's not any one persons fault, it's not a certain comment, a certain incident, a certain hybridizer, certain picture, greed ... or a certain brug. I just figure this forum might have to go through this therapeutic purging every few months. You have to admit - after everyone gets to have their say and releases some pent up anger the forum runs pretty smoothly for a while; Until the next blow up anyway.

I was going to comment on the advertising, selling and freebie topic but decided not to since that's another topic that might need to be hashed out at different time.

I'm with Poppysue. Period.

Whoever it is out there making the problem, get over it, get over your issues, and let this thread be normal.

I have often found my "questions" buried, because people take over the forum and send my question 2 pages back, and once in awhile a nice polite person finds it and answers.

So I don't start a whole NEW thread on this forum, I want to tell those who see this that my neighbor Cindy brought back to me a sickly Brug, (I think an Isabella) and I almost cried when I saw it. She said she doesn't have the time, but "wants it back". Yeah Right.

I peeled off the poor little leaves, kissed it, and it seems to be liking Diana Krall right now.

Karrie

Hey - Let's just all get along, ok? Stop acting silly and ridiculous.