Just wanna rant!!

((((((Sandy))))) Jo

Sandy, thanks for you post!!!
My step sons are now 19. They have both seen the inside of a jail, 1 of them spent a week in jail for commiting grand larceny at 17. He stole over $500 of playstation equipment from us....yup, we pressed charges. The other has been in jail 2x for drug and vehicle infractions.
I worry about them, but can no longer house them. I've been mouthed off to, stolen from and degraded. My only crime? I married their father : (. Hopefully they will come around.
My 13 yo had a snafu a few months ago with the law. He must have taken good notes. He spent 3 days in juvie, which broke my heart but what else was i to do??. He madea very poor decision, and an even worse choice of a friend. He seems to have learned his lesson, but he will be paying for it, and paying it off for the next 2 years.
We can only do the best we can, with the resources we have.
As far as the way the kids dress. Many, MANY, times we've been ready to go somewhere, and I've sat right back down until the kids put on clothes that fit, etc. I refuse to go out with my boys looking like they dont know any better.
Jen

MSJen I am sorry to hear this. You know life is tough enough without our kids causing us trouble. Ours stole our credit card 2x about 300.00, Ran out owing us 800.00 for a junk car he bought and we co-signed a loan. stole money from us. and other things.
He can never live here again. I know he chose this route but not to let him rent and apartment, He can never vote again,
and he has no parental rights. he has 2 daughters Gwyneth who will be 4 in Oct. and Destiny who will be 2 in Oct.
He is 28 and still thinks only of himself. GRRRRRRRR

Unfortunately, kids at this age who do not show respect to you are probably not expected to show it at home either. But if you have a good relationship with your child and a mutual respect then there is something your child can do about it. For you to demand to be treated correctly is only the first step. Your child must then address the problem and make it known that they will not tolerate anyone "Dissing" their family. They are old enough to understand that it is up to them to see that their friends do not cause you distress. Part of growing up is learning responsibility and to support and defend your loved ones, even from "friends". After a couple times they will realize that a real friend would not treat those he cares for like that.

It is never too early for a young man to start learning to protect his home and family from unwarranted attacks of this nature. Or for a Young woman to learn to say, I deserve respect from my peers and they need to show me that respect by respecting my family.

OOPS... got a bit carried away but you really hit a chord with this one ;~)

Zanymuse, You are right but it is still their choice. Our son will not let anyone speak bad of me, but he does. Drugs are a choice they make even if we have taught them different. To disrespect is their choice even if we have taught them better.
You would think all the bad treatment our son got in jail would have kept him out the next time. That is why we would not bail him out we not because he was treated badly in the wrong cell, but we thought he would never want to go back. But we were wrong. We were told by someone we knew who only spent a couple hours with him working on that car, that our son problem was he did not think anyone was bigger than him.
He has told me he has a hugh chip on his shoulder because of what he blames and who he blames everything he did on and I told him that it is his choice to get rid of or keep the chip.
He won't keep a job, that he did not get from us. I was a stay at home mom but when I worked I gave it my all.
His dad my honey of 28 yrs. has worked non stop no matter what kind of job he has had. He has always been a good provider.
He blames his dad because he was an alcoholic, He told me he would not have any felonies if he had had a better relationship with his dad. Now that is bull. Those were his choice.
Blame Blame Blame Yuck.....
Alot of this started because we don't take a stand and not tolerate some of the things that go on on TV, Video games, music, and in School when they removed prayer. We all need to stand for something, even our kids or we will fall for anything.
Sorry here I went on again. No matter what kind of parents we have had and I had some that degraded me everyday It is still our choice.
Sorry as you can tell our son and what he does is a sore spot.

ilovejesus99, You are right that the child must make the choices and live with the consequences of those choices. Tough Love will turn some around and some will simply turn their backs and try to place the blame elsewhere. You are not alone. My first son, if he is still living, is 35 years old. We have not heard from him in 8 years. He left when we refused to support his chosen lifestyle of drugs and crime. It is hard not knowing if he and his family are ok and I will always love him BUT I will not have HIS choices destroy my life or the lives of the rest of my loved ones.

But none of my children ever treated me roughly or allowed their friends to speak to me in less than a respectful tone. My Youngest (now 30) also went through some rough spots but made sure that any of his friends who called or came to his home acted respectfully while there.

I will never forget one day when he was 16 and had a girlfriend to the house for a BBQ with the family. She started getting mouthy and he took her to the side gate to talk. "If you want to be important to me you must respect me enough not to treat my family badly" She screamed at him and left. But an hour later she was at the door with an apology on her lips and we all enjoyed the new attitude the rest of the afternoon This only happened because my son took the initiative. Had I been forced to handle it the outcome would no doubt have been much different!

Just discovered this thread and Jen, I have to say, I know what you are talking about! I see it all the time with my 14-year-old step-daughter especially. All three step-kids (13, 14, 16) live with us after a custody battle that we won that started in winter '02, mostly because their mom was doing all the things she should not. She was their best friend, not their parent, to her they never did anything wrong, if she could watch a movie, they could (R rated, from as young as can remember), they only have to follow their own rules when other peoples homes, I could go on. She is the prime example of parents that are raising these kids today.

Both my husband and I grew up with a lot of freedoms we should not have had and believe our kids should not make our mistakes. I have always taught my DD to say please and thank you, to have phone manners (introduce yourself, say thank you), I taught her to say yes maam, sir (though she does slack on that at 10), to be respectful of other people's property, the rules of their home, taught her that honesty if very important, and taught her compassion.

When DH's kids moved in, I tried to correct some of their rudeness and disrespect, but I about killed myself in the process. If we tell them they can't go to a friends house that we don't feel comfortable with, their mom say's we got to do what we wanted when we were their age, they should too. We told my step-daughter she could not get her belly button pierced at 13, mom took her over the weekend. They have no respect for their bodies, and know sex gets attention. I was promiscuous, as a teenager and it was definitely low self esteem based (would not say no), but I was never one to come on to guys, or be so outwardly sexual. It is so sad. These days girls are giving oral sex to get a guys attention, hoping they will go out with them if they do, because it is "not real sex" to them. I won't even start on my 11 year-old half-sister who is NOT a virgin and dresses like a hoochie-mama.

I have pretty much resigned myself to hope that they will learn from example in the future since I live my life very differently from what they previously grew up with - dishonesty, disrespect, and manipulation. It was truly killing me trying to change their ways, and I have partially let go, even though it still scares me to death, that we will not have made any difference in their life after the intervention of getting them away from mom.

Gosh, I could go on forever about this, but I won't.

One thing I really worry about is the influence on my daughter everyday. I try to guide her and teach her. Luckily, she will talk to me about it when the kids do something opposite I have taught her. She amazes me when she sees and points out why it does not pay off to be dishonest, disrespectful etc. I think talking to your kids, using these things as an example is very important. Don't just ignore the problems with these other kids around you and hope your kids don't emulate it. Take advantage of any chance you get to spend time with your kids, so that you can bring these things up without "bothering" them.

Zanymuse,
My heart breaks for you as with ours I atleast know where he is. I never know what he is up to but We get our grandaughters every other weekend. I know I can instill good morals in them. And they love to go to church. Gwyneth at 39 months knows Jesus loves her and will always protect her. Destiny is 19 months old is learning.
I tell them they can be anything they want to be, that they are wonderful and beautiful and they can always talk to me. I will always listen. I will never spank if they tell the truth but I will for a lie. They are so precious.
I use a spatula for their pops and count to 3. Most of the time I only get to 2.
Gwyneth loves to help me make cakes when she comes. She calls them birthday. Want to make a birthday.
The first time we made a cake she said Nonnie can I lick your spanking tool. I laughed so hard. It was so cute.
I can't change my son but I have a hand in making a difference with them. We have apologized to him and told him
that we did the best we knew how to do. He still chooses not to live different but I have no control over that.
hang in there as it sounds like you do.
Tough Love International teaches we can not change them we can only change us and how we react to them.
He is learning that I don't stand for much.
At 6 weeks old Destiny was black and blue all over her bottom. He said her Gwyneth dropped her. He need me to babysit while he went to the dr. He said destiny had a bruise on her bottom. When I got there she was asleep. when she woke up I changed her diaper and never seen anything like it. I called a nurse from church and she said I must take her to the hospital as she could have internal damage. The dr. looked at her and said it was possible Gwyneth dropped her. He was so vague I asked if it would be as extensive of bruising if she did and he said no. well they had to call CPS and they gave them to me overnight as I did not believe they should go home.
There won't be a next time no matter how it happens. I talked to a lawyer for gaurdianship for putting them on our inurance and she said it was hard to get and very costly. As we were talking I told her about this and she said had I acted then I would have gotten custody. She said it is easy to get under those circumstances.
Well I did not know that and I will not hesitate if there is a next time. I believe he won't do it again as he knows I am like and old momma hen and I will procect them even if they go to jail. I knew he could have went away a long time, but I sure did not care. They even brought the police here to get the kids, They were told there was no cases in CPS so the brought the police to get the kids. I bowed up in the Polices face and told them with out a court order those kids were going NO where. I did not care if they took me to jail they were not getting the kids.
Wow I have really rattled on this time. But when it comes to my grand babies I have a very tall soap box.
LOL

My only child is 31 years old and we pretty much don't care for each other.

I tried teaching mine by example. I worked hard, lived right. He started making wrong choices very early in life but it has taken me a lot of years to just stop expecting anything from him, good or otherwise. Crack is his poison, there seems to be no reasoning with him and there is no bottom of the pit. He doesn't care. I spent a lot of years thinking he had reached the bottom and I would help him get back up again. Time and time again he wasn't ready for the help I had to give....he still isn't. He is a convicted felon who has spent time at state work camp. He has been involved in drugs...selling, buying and using. He has traded his body to men and women alike for a hit of crack.

He knows he has failed my expectations for him in life, but he he doesn't really care anymore.

I didn't have the help of any organization or support groups. I just had to realize when was the right time (for me) to say no to him and leave him on his own.

Very tough to do when he cries hungry, homeless or whatever. The reality is, the only thing he is hungry for is the drugs. He would never go to rehab, he always said it was a brainwash he didn't want to be part of.

I have to try very hard every day to forget that I have a son and I cry every day wishing I didn't have to forget.

Sandy and Zany, I know......

(((((((((hugs))))))))) Prayers sent all your ways. :-( XoXoXoooooooooooooooooooo

Molly. It has got to be so hard to just let go and not assist him. I hope he finds his way one day soon.

I think its only fair to be honest, since yall are being so honest also.

My youngest is giving me fits. I'm not sure how i glorified him in earlier posts, but the truth is: im at my wits end with him.
Hes 13 and on his way to the life that y'all have described.
Hes been in the the mental hospital 3x in the past 1 1/2 years. Hes been diagnosed ADD/ADHD, bipolar, has tourettes syndrome, ODD and OCD. We've dropped some of those and then readded.

In May he tried his hand at grand larceny. Got caught, spent 3 days in detention and could care less. He was expelled from the school bus and suspended from school numerous times.

I've tried so hard to get him the help he needs, have been so lenient with him, gave him chance after chance after chance.
I spend many a nights crying wondering what i can do to reach and nothing i do seems to help.
His father and I are divorced and his father has no contact at all with him. He lives about 10 minutes up the road and hasnt called him in almost 2 years. I've sent letter upon letter to him begging him to have a relationship with him...he doesnt care. But, yet, Brandon just thinks that his father is the most wonderful guy in the world. It drives me insane. I just filed a contempt of court lawsuit against him (today, infact) because hes about $5G behind on child support and owes me about $2g on medical. Some father, eh?

He smokes (not in front of me) but will steal mine in heartbeat. He steals money and anything thing that he thinks is interesting. I dont think hes capable of telling the truth.

If you talk to other parents they think he is just the bestest kid. Hes a star football player, smart in school (top of his class, even after being suspended) and is generally well like by everyone....exept me : (
I typed up new house rules today. Any infraction will be followed up with a call to the sheriffs department. Im sick of worrying about him and making myself even sicker trying to talk since into him. Maybe if i do it this way, the courts will intervene and help.

Maybe thats why i "overreacted" when the girl called. I put up with so much [deleted] from mine that the last thing i want to do is put up with [deleted] from someone elses ill behaved child.
There is so much more that i could add, but its like a neverending story.
Heartbroken
Jen

Jen, mum said bless your little heart!
Wish we could help out somehow- but all we can offer is a kind word and a cyber shoulder to cry on. Take me up on that offer anytime guys. (((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
Just make sure you title your email well enough so I don't delete you!! lol

I am sorry that your son is being such a butt. How disappointing that his little trip to Juvenile did not knock some sense into him. Hopefully something will soon. I would definitely try the tough love thing with him. You have helped him all he can, and yes he is 13 but he has to learn that there are consequences for his actions – and he can’t learn independence until he does. Don't let him use the various psychological disorders as a crutch for bad behavior, either. I think sometimes parents let a little too much slide, because of them. I have seen this in my brother (bi-polar or schizophrenic, depending on the Dr.) and my step-sons who are ADHD. Don’t let the teachers, coaches, friends tell you he is a good kid, and “why don’t you give him a break”. You know what is best for your son.

I think you are going in the right direction with the rules you have set out. I know it has to be hard doing it yourself, without another parent to back you up. I would show him that everything he has - cool clothes, football jersey's, posters in his room, sweet snacks when he gets home from school, sodas, allowance, his phone, internet, rides to the movies etc are non-necessities and start taking them away. If he treats you with respect by following rules and laws, than he gets those things. The only things you are expected to do as a mother are those basic needs - everything else is a privilege.

MollyMc Oh My Gosh. Our son did the same things with crack
men women steal...Cry hungry, Homeless, Cold, Sick. It was so hard. We sound like the same kind of parents and you too MSJen. This all brought back wounds I have buried for a long time. I wish I could take all of your pain. No one should have to experience this. We have such high hopes for our kids. And you never know. I can tell you that If you do what you say and stand your ground without budging you will make it no matter what. You know as parents our sanity come first.
When ours went to state prison the first time for a year, I ended up in the phsyciatric ward for 2 and a half weeks. I was already on depression meds.
This is not easy. It is baby steps and it takes time but we can get stronger. I promise.
We are fixers and that is not a good thing. God showed me once that as long as I kept trying to fix things he couldn't.
We had him to a phsychriatrist? when he was in second grade.
He deliberately broke a doll of the teachers in kindergarten, when he was corrected for something. And a neighbor yelled at him once when he was at her house and he took her earrings off her nightstand and threw them over her fence. We found one and I had to replace the other. He was only about 4 then. I am not joking. Now this ought to tell people it is not always parents. As he did not learn this from home.
He got conduct notes on an average 2 out of every 3 days. all 12 years. Once in 8th grade the principal called, he turned in fire crackers a girl had but gave some to his friends. The principal was proud of him till he found out the part were he gave some to his friends and they set them off at school. He told me I could come up and paddle him, they could expell him for 3 days, or I could come one day and go class to class with him. I told him If I paddled him he needed to fill the gym and I would do it in there, I told him there was no expelling him as that was only punishing me as he would love to stay home, so I went to school and went class to class with him. I think it killed me more than him. Please don't hesitate to e-mail me or stay on this post as I would love to listen. I have known for some time I have wanted to help others. And MSJen I know why you did not tell us at first( it was shame and guilt) but there is nothing to be ashamed or guilty about as you see you are not alone.
Now this ought to tell people it is not always parents. As he did not learn this from home.
Always a shoulder,
Sandy

Hmmmm, they tried to tell me the same disorders were at the root of my son's trouble until the insurance ran out. Then it was just that he was an undiscipilned kid from a home where it was obvious there was no parent in control, until I stood up in front of a juvinile court judge and told him that I was not a parent who was out all night partying. I was not abusive and had tried every legal disciplinary action a mother can take. That I was the one who caught him red handed with stolen property and drove him to the police department to turn himself in and face the consequences of his actions. And that I had done so, not out of anger or hate but out of love. Hoping that somewhere along the line he would see that he had to straighten up.

We paid for private therapy sessions in addition to the ones covered by our insurance. We paid for hospitalization and rehab. We never missed a session. When the insurance ran out we used up our savings. When that ran out we went to court ordered "therapy" where my husband and I were the only non-drinking/ non-druggies in the room. We were accused there of being abusive both sexually and or physically since that was "the only way a child could be so messed up" per these so called experts. It took 6 months and 5 polygraph tests before they finally looked at my son and asked him what excuse he could possibly have for his actions since his home seemed to be "normal". My son's response? "I don't know" as he shrugged his shoulders, "You're the shrink, you tell me"

The cost of all this "help" $355,000.00 to the county plus another $20,000.00 in "restitution" for us and 6 months in a juvinile delinquent training camp for my son.

The emotional cost? I cannot even begin to measure. It affected not just myself and my husband but our two younger children as well. And although he has been absent for 8 years we have never given up hope that some day, like the prodigal son in the Bible, he will return to us and choose to live right.

In the mean time, my other two are doing fine. They suffered too, but they did not follow him down that path.

Strange, I have not talked about this at all for several years now. Trying to get on with life. And to be honest it is not easy for me to share these things in private, much less here in such a public forum. But I thought you deserved to hear from other people who understand your pain. Hang in there and feel free to rant anytime!

When we had a tough love group here the judge would court order parents of the ones who were not really good parents, but it did no good as they wouldn't follow anything and we had to report back to the court whether they came. I don't know what happened to them after that.

Zanymuse I admire anyones courage to tell what is so hard to speak of. I know it helps others because for so long I thought I was alone. There is so many more out there that haven't read this post. And like prodigal son in the Bible, he will return and choose to live right. I believe this with all my heart, for all of us.

How did you ever pay all that? We were lucky ours did not get in trouble with the law until he was 18.

It took us 26 years of struggling to finally pay it off. If we had it to do over again would we? Yes. When you are a parent you do what you can and hope for the best. The amazing part is that my Husband, Bob, is the stepfather not the biological father to my children. But he has made every sacrifice over the years to support us as a true family. As we are aging, we are without savings to fall back on and will work until we are unable. No retirement funds to fall back on now. But bless his heart the man has never once complained. So in that I am Blessed!

Zanymuse you are truely blessed with a man like that. So many would get up and run. Even the real dads.
We also have no retirement as My husband lost a high paying job in 1993 and we had to use it all to survive. Just remember God is faithful and He is our retirement. The bible says do not worry about tomorrow as today has too many obsticles. I sure believe that. I injured my back at work, It will be 5 years ago the 20th (1999). I have been on workers comp ever since. A whole 423.91 a month. I had a 2 level lumbar fusion in april of 2000. After 18 months they told me they needed to redo it as on level did not fuse. I see another surgeon on monday.
I can not get SSI as my husband makes too much. Thats a joke. And as a stay at home mom I have not paid in enough to draw social security disability.
I also had an EMG for the nerves in my legs. They said I have neuropathy and it is not caused by my back injury. I was told by the dr. it only gets worse not better. I can't imagine worse.
You are very stong. You are a winner. A winner keeps getting back up, I want you and MSJen to remember that. You are winners as losers stay down and I have thought of it because it sure seems at time it would be easier.
I hope some of the things I say help some.

If Oprah could only hear us now, opening up and saying it like it is...............

Good thread.

Karrie----- Thought about forwarding the thread to Oprah--- just joking but It would make an excellent show because so many mothers think they are on this "sinking ship" by themselves. When truly there seems to be one struggling loving parent on every block. I have a brother just like what is being discussed here but he just turned 40. We love him to death but hate the things he does. We have tried the "tough love" and he didn't speak to anyone of us for over 3 years--- we didn't have any idea where he was or how? My parents have just about lost everything having him admitted in rehabs--- to later find out that some of the "nurses" were bringing him his dope in the rehab. The last day of the last stint he left the rehab more "high" than the day he arrived. How can we expect our loved ones to come "clean" when they have so much help from the employees of these rehabs (by the way the same thing happened at two other rehabs here in the state). I have sent letters to everyone up the chain upset about this and up to this date have received one (yes one letter from a senator) explaining that this must have been a mistake and that the employees must have felt sorry for my brother. Well if that is the case then that is not the job for them because these rehabs cost big bucks and usually involve the whole family. I visited the three rehabs and explained my disgust on behalf of my parents and no one had time to sit and talk to me about it. Isn't it amazing how everyone has something to do when you have a problem? We threated lawsuit and the head of the rehab resigned. hum imagine that. But then at the same time it is only half their fault the other half is my brother. I want to agree that it isn't "BAD" parents that cause these children because the same parents that raised him raised four others and they turned out to be decent hard working kids-into no trouble. He is the type that blames everyone else for his addiction. All of these excuses--- I just want to laugh at some of them. We have seen it all from him. As a person without an addiction he was the most loving- Christ worshiping-- caring person. Before his addiction and running away at 14 he would have laid down and died for you if needed. Then there has been 25 years of addiction to everything from cologne to crystal meth. We have come to the conclusion that our love will NOT cure him of this illness. Our LOVE will always be there for him but the money will NOT be there. I guess that is the tough love. Yes it kills me to tell him that I can't give him money for another fix but at the same time I am reminded I have children to feed. I pray every night that he will get tired of this addiction and will want to walk with his SAVIOR! again, but that is all I can do is pray that My FATHER will help him. He has the most beautiful daughter. That looks just like her daddy and unfortunately has decided to walk the same road. And at the same time he seems proud that she had decided to be like her father. My heart just breaks. She just gave birth to a beautiful baby boy that looks just like his grandpa and mom and all ready a weakness. I don't know what to or who to hate for taking my brother. But LORD if I only could get him back. He has missed out on so much of his neices and nephews live. They don't understand the strength that drugs have on you. He told me one day that he has lost more in a month than most people have in a lifetime. He is a very very smart (common sense) man. But to be addicted to the degree that he is you have to be. Without a job and still buying????? You have to be smart. I read last week that one in four families are struggling with the same problem. It truly is a shame. I just want the addiction to let go of the grip that it has on my brother and my neice and will continue to pray daily for them and others who are battling this disease. His birthday comes around and our hearts just break. He was a handsome man and these drugs have really took tole of his gorgeous face. He has gave me pictures over the years and I refuse to hang them. They just break my heart. I have a picture of him when he was him... about 25 years ago hanging on my living room wall and he has asked why I have that old picture up and not the new ones and I simply tell him that--- "That is you" I no that sounds harsh but it is a fact. Sorry to go on and on but I wanted to show the others that you can love them from the soles of your feet and it still not affect them. All we can do is turn it over to our FATHER and continue to pray. Marie

Prayer - and hoping they finally make that ultimate decision to get clean, which usually requires hitting rock bottom first. Then experiencing life "clean" for the first time in years could be almost like them getting stoned - freaks alot of them out because being sober doesn't feel natural to them anymore. Prayers are with you all. Why don't you forward the thread to her? You'd probably have to copy and paste it, because if she's not a member, she won't be able to click on it and see the whole thread.

This message was edited Jul 11, 2004 6:17 PM

As a daycare provider this subject is important to me.. I have kept kids in my home for almost 30 years now.. What a difference 30 years have made. The parents now don't want to decipline and they want their kids to have it all.. Many of them can't afford what they do buy them. One big thing that I really get upset with is they can't wait until they get into school. Whether they are mature enough or not, they send them. I have a few that struggle every year and their parents aren't smart enought to have them held back. That would embarrass them..

While they are here they know what the rules are and they pretty much follow them.. My husband and I have raised 3 kids. We gave up alot to see that they went to college and could make a living for themselve and their own families. Thankfully they are doing well.. They waited until almost 30 before marrying and starting a family.. We often talked about getting married young and having a family. It ends up being a struggle forever. They knew that if they made that decision it was their responsibilty to take care of.. We were not supporting them the rest of their lives.. I never had a new home, furniture,cars or anything else while I was raising them. I made due without a lot of nice things..It is our turn now.

Parents now not only have to think of today but way down the road, too. What do you want them to be? Ask them what they would like to be and help them get there. My children always showed people respect.. My wonderful father-in-law told us one time that the other ones in the family could take some lessons from ours. He wrote us a letter. We have showed this to all 3 kids and it really makes them feel great that their grandpa thought this way about them. what a wonderful man.. We all missed him so much.

I am sure that being a single mom has to be the hardest job in the world but I have seen lots of two parent families that don't work at this at all. I bet I could sit down and write down every child I have had and tell you where they are going to wind up in 10 or 15 years. Sadly, some will be in jail.. I would put money on it.. AND, it is so sad at how easy this can be avoided in lots of homes..

It is so hard to sit back and watch a child get lost.. So many times it isn't their fault.. Rich or poor, you can raise a great kid!!!! It is the values that you work with that gets them there..

Bailergirl

Bailergirl,
Thank you for your post, your words speak so much truth!!
Welcome to Daves!!
Jen

Welcome, Bailergirl! I had a daycare for 12 years and quit because of the parents - couldn't put up with parents who didn't give a [deleted] about their kids. They didn't want to know what their kids did all day, if they had problems that needed attention or anything like that. Some would pick up the babysitter on the way home from work so they could go out later. UNREAL!! It drove me crazy and I decided I had to do something different.

I agree with you that Love and discipline are lacking in many homes today. I also agree that too many people are spoiling their children by giving them things they really can't afford and not teaching them to live within their means. They learn to expect instant gratification and have ME, ME ,Me, attitudes with little or no regard to the consequences. BUT... there are also children who hit puberty and suddenly decide that no discipline will stop them from doing what their friends do. You can tell them, ask them, order them or reason with them til you are blue in the face. You can punish them or reward them according to the situation. You can tell them when they make you proud and when they let you down. You can listen to them and encourage them. You can take them to church and set a good example at home. And you can still end up with a son/daughter who rebels against all you stand for. And when that happens, you can blame yourself for failing as a parent. You can feel the world pointing their finger at a child who is causing problems and hear them whispering that it is your fault. And no matter what you did or how consistantly you tried, you will always, in the back of your mind, think that they are right. That there is some secret formula that you failed to discover that would have made them hear you. You learn to feel shame, not for their actions but because you failed in turning them to the right path. You look at your other children and than God they are ok and you struggle every day to try and understand why the one chose to be as he is.

Was I a perfect parent? No, of course not. We all make mistakes. I could have skipped the classroom time and worked more so we could have lived in nicer areas. Or, I could have been a stay at home Mom but to do so would have meant going on welfare in order to keep a roof over their heads and food in their bellies. I am sure they did not always get caught in their misbehaviors and therefore did not always get disciplined.

Do I know now, after all these years, what went wrong? No.
Do I feel the shame of not knowing? Yes. Do I blame myself? My brain tells me no, that I did the best I could....but my heart says...it wasn't good enough.

Bailergirl & kooger, I don't blame you. I could never just watch those parents be so darn self-centered. I would come unglued.

Zany, oh my, I know those me, me, me kids and parents that spend beyond their means. DH's ex-wife is like this. When the kids came into our house, they did not understand why we would not buy them whatever they wanted just because my dh and I brought home double the household salary. Mom would buy them all of the newest and coolest stuff - they would go to Walmart and come out with tons everytime - until they were in debt. It was like a roller coaster. They are the ones that constantly had utilities shut off, got to the point where they could not put food on the table, every few months.

Sidenote... Am I the only one out there that would never want to win the lottery as a parent of kids? I never play and even if I knew I could win the next big on I would not want it. The responsibility of teaching children that life is not about money is just not possible in a situation like that.

I don't know if it is the right thing, but my husband and I have a system. We give the kiddos decent Christmas's & Birthday's, but 99% of the extras like toys, cds, candy, sodas are in their control. We give them set allowance and report card money. If they ask for something, we tell them to save their own money, find some extra work to do for someone or put it on their Christmas list. I am hoping it will help teach them responsibility and that you don't get handed anything you want for free.

I too think that allowances are good so long as they are reasonable and that kids need to learn to save and work for the extras they want. Our kids always had good Christmas presents but never did they get everything on their lists. They could make their lists as long as they wanted but they would only get what was most important to them and then only if we could afford it. We never used credit to buy extras. TV broke, oh well, we did without it until we could afford to replace it. A bicycle? Sure, how much do you have saved? We will add to your savings as a gift come your Birthday or you can earn money working....and no, your not going to be paid to do chores. Everyone has their own chores to do. It is part of being in a family. And Girls can mow the lawn and boys can do laundry or the dishes.

As for winning the Lottery, I really don't think it would have changed much if we had been wealthy. They would still have had to live on an allowance and do chores. The only major difference would have been that I could have been with them more. Money is not evil, it can be used to make things better too.

Zanymuse, you are right you can not put a square peg in a round hole. I was a stay at home mom and it did help because I believe that one day and Jesus promises us that we train up a child in the way he/she should go and they will not depart from it. That means they will return back to their teaching.
I don't believe my ears when parents are to blame as you can only do the best you know how. My son is anti-social. Charming (kinda spider like) He is very charming and says what you want to here but then BAM he sinks his fangs in. whether it be lying or stealing. I did not teach him this!!
I was talking to evelyn yesterday and I told her he has a big heart and alot of compassion. He is so romantic. He got that side from me. She agreed and said she would love for him to realize that. He can not understand why his dad is not the same as him. Not many men are born with compassion.
Yet no matter what we did he turned out like this. He would blame the dogs barking for his problem if he thought I would believe it. Now he will always have problems as you loose a lot of rights for felonies, especially drug felonies.
I do understand there are parents out there that pawn their child off all the time so to have their own life but I was not one of those. Was I perfect....Far from it. But he did not have parents like mine who told me all the time I would never be worth anything. Or my husbands who bought beer when he was 16 for him so atleast he would drinkat home and then laughed at him when he was throwing up all over the place. They said if he was going to drink they were going to let him drink at home it was less dangerous. Alcohol is also a drug. With Jesus' help he will fight this the rest of his life.
The coach at our sons school said drugs call your name everyday that goes by. You just have to be strong.
Also If anyone wants to send this to Opera I think the individuals should be ask. No one should speak for all of us as it could cause more problems than not.
Just my 2 cents but I do not like when parents are all catagorized the same. I am not saying anyone did Again just my 2 cents worth.
By the way the scale for anti-social starts as low as some of our kids and extreme being Serial killers.

I hope I did not offend anyone. I only said what I did about Oprah as we have gained some ground (me and our son) and when the past any little thing comes up, he says I am always thowing it in his face. Then we go back to square one. I believe this needs to be told but right now I prefer to do it like this or face to face. I love all of you and will help, listen or tell you how I made it thru the worst of times. But for now that is I believe I am called to do. Love to all.

No offense was taken by me! I cuold not go on a show like that and bare my sould to the camera and audiance but it would make for an interesting and eyeopening hour of drama.

It would be hard to get thru without alot of heartbreak. Those memories are so hurtful. It would make for a great show. So others know they are not alone.

Sorry but, you guys make me want to puke!

Could you elaborate here, imway2dumb? And perhaps use some tact? The people here have told stories of very rough times, and your statement is pretty flip.

This message was edited Jul 30, 2004 8:42 PM

GW- This thread has come full circle.

When a couple of the girls in my daughter's class started beginning every sentence with "Sorry but..." or "I don't mean to be rude but...", I explained to my daughter that it meant to ignore what they were saying because they were just trying to explain something to themselves that they just no abilities of understanding.

Seeing what you named yourself, I would say you have your own issues. I know it is easier to read and comment on others issues than to look yours in the mirror. You sound like you also have some anger problems. I forgive you.
But I know you wouldn't want us to take your hurts lightly and say hurtful things. Please be more considerate of our feelings.

GW, what I was reading (hearing) didn't seem like constructive dialogue but, instead, more like destructive whining. I was blunt, not flip. You don't get past rough times by whining through them. You deal with it, come to a resolution of some sort and move on. Whining slows that process.

Then say that, you know? Vague criticisms don't open the door to dialogue or even teach, they just confuse and offend.

This message was edited Jul 30, 2004 10:59 PM

99, you've judged me by my screen name? Amazing!

Before this goes any further and just degrades into personal attacks, please read http://davesgarden.com/about/index.php?page=tos .

This message was edited Jul 30, 2004 11:14 PM