Garden Watchdog - Locating companies by zipcode

This is a great feature to find new nurseries, but I found some major discrepancies when it came to the mileage calculations for some of them from my zipcode. Since the feature uses zipcodes I first assumed it is the mileage from post office to post office, and already agree that factor alone can and will cause a variance in the actual mileage listed.

Then I started wondering if mileage is calculated by "as the crow flies method" because if I wanted to visit Brent and Becky's Bulbs it is about 50 miles to drive one way instead of the 26 miles listed. The two quickest ways for me would be to drive to catch a ferry and cross a bridge, or drive to cross two bridges instead.

Some of the other discrepancies I noticed - I believe all or most of them were on the first page - is that Waldorf, MD is actually about 150 miles away instead of 97; Mineral, Va is about 110 miles away instead of 81; and Chincoteague, VA is about 150 miles away instead of 95. It also says that there is a nursery in Clover, SC that is 53 miles away from me and unless the state of North Carolina disappeared overnight I'd say Clover, SC is about 330 miles away. :o)

Dave, this cracks me up in view of thread #427304 from Apr 24.

Carol7,

Those distance figures are sheer geographic terms, not roadways, i.e., as the crow flies. The data is from a zipcode database that (I think) originated from the USPS. The geo data is longitude/latitude for all U.S. zipcodes, which is what I am using to calculate the distance (point a to point b).

Does that answer it?

dave

Ulrich,

I must be particularly dense, because I don't understand why:

1) This has anything to do with the other thread

and

2) Why you find it so hilarious.

Can you help me understand?

dave

Sure. I keep harping on 'why not make the town, or location, or zipcode mandatory'. A lot of folks seem to support something like that, maybe not as drastic. Anyway, if we knew Carols' hometown we could go to Mapquest or our trusty AAA map and see what she is talking about.
Make sense?

Yours truly

Dave,
Thanks for answering my question. When you mentioned geo data, (latitude/longitude), I am assuming a gps is involved in the mileage calculations then? I think I remember reading somewhere awhile back that the usps had released the info regarding the zipcodes, so I believe you are right about where you received the info from. But even using this system there is no way Clover, SC can be only 53 miles away - so there is some kind of glitch somewhere.

Is there anyway to inform people people who are using the Garden Watchdog how the mileage is calculated so there isn't any unexpected surprises - especially since a minute isn't always a minute in the mileage sense? ;o) Thanks, Carol

Ulrich, I'm sorry I don't see how my question related to your thread either. What I do find absolutely hilarious is that you were so concerned that I didn't have my city, state or zipcode posted here. I've personally lived in two of the cities and have visited one frequently so even if I had my hometown/zipcode listed you wouldn't have been much help to me anyway. Everyone has opinions and can I respect that part, but I'm putting this opinion of yours in file thirteen since it didn't relate to my question.

Those closest to my ZIP look pretty accurate, from an "as the crow flies" perspective - roughly 20 miles to N'ville, 40 to McMinnville, and 130 miles to Knox-vegas ;o)

Knox Vegas. hehehe. That's what I used to call it!

The reason why I had asked my question in the first place concerning the mileage is because I am going to speak to a gardening group tomorrow concerning the media, websites and their influence on gardening tomorrow. I prefer to speak the positive when talking to a group, but in this case I honestly cannot put my personal endorsement concerning the GWD because of the mileage estimates. I tried to leave the door open when I mentioned the gps part in my last post - in case I was mistaken - but I guess Knox Vegas seemed to be more important?
Oh well, at least I attempted to try to put a positive spin on this before stating an honest opinion before a group of people if asked about the GWD.

Carol7, I have no other answer than what I have given. I am using raw latitude and longitude data from the post office. My equations use trigonometry to take into account the curvature of the earth and it is mathematically correct. I had nothing more to say and I'm sorry that such a small pedantic issue is preventing you from mentioning the single best (and most powerful) media resource for buying garden products.

Why couldn't you talk about the great media resource the GWD is and also mention that the mileages stated are derived from the USPS data and listeners might not find it equal to actual driving miles? That way you are giving them the tool and the directions for using it. No tool is perfect!

Well, I gave this some thought. Carol, instead of referring folks to Garden Watchdog, you might be better served sending them to "Garden Bazaar". Their URL is www.gardenbazaar.com

Yes, companies do actually pay to be listed.

No, gardeners cannot submit ratings for them.

No, they aren't rated by anyone at all.

No, they don't have any location browsing options (including zipcode searches).

But, the nice thing about them is, their zip code information, being non-existent, is not incorrect! :-)

dave

Good point, kooger!
For everyone concerned...my perspective is:
The Watchdog is geared towards alerting folks to the credibility and professional dealings (or lack of) garden-oriented mail order companies and the products those individual companies offer. The Watchdog is not set up to be a Mapquest and shouldn't be used as one. (By the way, look at Mapquest, a site specifically geared towards giving directions and one of the first things I notice each time is its disclaimer about 'these directions may not be accurate'.)

As for a positive spin on the GWD...it is the most reliable source of input available in the whole World for feedback concerning gardening mail-order businessess (and that covers garden centers, nurseries, tool stores, apparel shops, Web stores...well, you see what I mean).

Another would be that there is either a "green flag" (Go for it!) or a "yellow" (warning, warning) or the "red flag" (Danger Danger). And, what's really cool is that we each get to make our own individual choice, regardless of the flags, to do or not do business based on the information before us. Yay!

I find it difficult to pooh-pooh such a great tool. (Plus, have ya'll noticed, it's FREE!) (I luvs that part, too! :>)

Dave, when I started this thread was to ask a question in order to properly answer a question if asked, and since there were some bugs to have them cleared up or a way to explain them concerning to promote the GWD. You must have not realized that I didn't bring up any discrepancies with DG or the PDB. I am just so surprised that you would think I wouldn't give them the accolades that I feel they deserve.

The folks that I am speaking to tomorrow have some the same zipcode problems that I do and I wanted to check to make sure it wasn't only mine and be able to make an honest opinion. Do you really think someone is going to trust a rating system that reads South Carolina is only 50+ miles away when in reality it is over 300 miles, and other mileages are off by 30+ miles one way? If the mileage isn't close to being right, (I'm not saying exact or precise because that is unreal to expect), would you comfortable trusting it to a dear family member who wanted to take a day trip to several nurseries based on that information while they were enroute to a destination? I know I wouldn't.

From the onset of this I had planned to be bluntfully honest and completely fair in my opinions and still will be. I don't tend to pull any punches, as well as not having to wipe any brown off of my nose either. The only thing I found obviously wrong about all of the sites in the standardout.com gardening family was the mileage in the GWD. If that strikes a nerve so be it...

I analyzed the cities you listed, and discovered that Clover SC had a transposed ZIP code (27910, rather than 29710) - the rest look fine, but I'm still checking. ZIP codes can be transposed - there's nothing to check them against within the system. We can look at reports of odd mileage estimates from users, and are always glad to know that something is "off" (we need enough info to go on, though.) If you'd like to email me the ZIP code you were using to test the companies, I'd be happy to try to replicate what you saw and perhaps uncover other errors.

In the absence of that, I did some rough triangulation off the cities you listed, and took a guess that your ZIP is close to 234-something. But the range of ZIPs I tried showed Brent & Becky's roughly 40-60 miles away from those ZIPs.

The mileage estimates are an interesting sidenote, but not the main feature of the GWD, nor will they ever be since we're dealing with mail-order/internet-based companies, many of whom are not set up to deal with walk-in customers. That doesn't mean we don't care if they're accurate, but humans input the companies, and humans sometimes make transposition errors.

Dang Terry! You're good!

That must've took a lot of time to do all that. Bigtime thanks from me. Most folks/organizations/info-books wouldn't have taken the time to check it out.

Again, many thanks!

It might be easier to remove the zipcode feature all together, if it is causing a stumbling block here. It's not at all an important feature, and I doubt anyone relies on it. I'll remove it tomorrow and then the GWD will be perfect once more.

dave

"GWD will be perfect once more."

Like I said above, to me it is a great service, nothing negative about it.

Once again, thanks Dave and Terry for researching and resolving an issue that seemed to have an effect on a minority of us who utilise that feature of the GWD. Now THAT'S good service!

This message was edited May 7, 2004 11:51 AM

Another terrible thing, this should say "the other right".

And who thought Pasadena was so close to Malibu?
If people don't know where they live they probably don't know how to read a map anyway.

Terry, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to do some research concerning this and that you found the answer to the Clover, SC mystery. :o) I'll send you my zipcode as soon as I finish this post, and if you don't mind waiting until later today I'll also send the information concerning the discrepancies I found. Thanks for all of your help.

Dave, I guess I am such a stickler concerning the mileage factor because in all reality I liked that feature of the GWD. I found a great nursery in my county that I was previously unaware of just by entering my zipcode. I haven't used the feature alot recently because when I utilized it last year I had bookmarked the sites of several nurseries in Virginia and North Carolina that had caught my interest.
I can understand your reasoning about removing the mileage factor if it isn't accurate, but I feel it would be better to do it on a temporary basis so the bugs can be found and corrected. You have to realize that we are a very mobile society these days and this aspect of the GWD could be very helpful to a gardener who has relocated to a new area - in other words an asset. I don't know if you are aware that the Tidewater area of Virginia is home to the Atlantic Fleet and has bases for other branches of the military as well. Not to mention that Williamsburg and Virginia Beach are tourist areas too. Several of the nurseries listed on the GWD are open to the public or you can schedule a visit.
I realize that you will decide to do whatever is best. I don't mind helping out with the mileage problems from my neck of the woods, but in my personal opinion only, I'd hate to see you cut off your nose despite your face since this aspect of the GWD could be used as a good marketing tool for DG. These are just my thoughts though.

I think it is safe to assume that I was part of the "minority" mentioned in the posts here? I'm just trying to figure out if it is because I was savvy enough to take advantage of this option and liked it, or was it because I brought up a valid question about a problem with the GWD before addressing a group of people. Oh well, at least I can't be accused of "tunnelvision" can I?

I know you too well, Carol...you'd Never be accused of tunnelvision.

I just tried the zip code feature (never had a need to before) and it really brought up lots of nurseries and choices I didn't know were available. The mileage was fairly accurate also but I'd only use it as a guide...guess if I wanted to go visit the nurseries I'd learn of the actual mileage when getting the directions.

Good to have pointed out the possibility of the discrepancy though. If I was new to the area I wouldn't have known which ones were accurate or not.

I say keep the feature, Dave. It works for me!

Well, going back through the list, the Clover, SC one was the only one that had an incorrect/different ZIP than what each company lists on its website, and I confirmed those through Google searches. My guess is that the rest of them are "as the crow flies" issues.

Dave, perhaps if you put an asterisk (*) next to the "Miles" heading and a footnote indicating that it is based on lat/longitude, and the actual travel distance may be significantly longer, so as to manage people's expectations when it comes to this data.

Alternatively, we can add it as an FAQ (although it's technically not a FREQUENTLY-asked question - at least not yet ;o)

That's a good idea, Terry. Mapquest and those other 'directions/maps' sites have something like that. (Disclaimer?)

Wow....

When did using a map go out of vogue??? When did calling places to verify directions become too hard???

My DH and I have used Mapquest and found about an 85% accuracy rate. So we went back to the maps. And when I pulled up "maps" on the web, I never once saw GWD listed as a travel planner. It's obvious that the "mileage" is based on L/L and not on "actual" traveling miles.

In an ever changing world with new roads appearing and old roads disappearing, it's always wise to verify any travel plans at the time of your trip, regardless if it takes a little more time.

We'd all love to be served "breakfast in bed" but sometimes we have to go to the kitchen to be fed.

s_d, couldn't have said it better.

Steel...what a great perspective!
"We'd all love to be served "breakfast in bed" but sometimes we have to go to the kitchen to be fed."

(Words of wisdom there! Made me smile! Thanks!)

Good one Steel datura.

Lots of good de-fusing going on here!

:)

Shoe, you are absolutely right that we know each other and we have been friends for quite awhile when we count in DG years. Now I know not to mention anymore about the fact that I enjoy lateral thinking puzzles, eh? :o)

Terry, I agree that there should be some kind of notice to folks using the feature so they will be informed. That is why I had also asked that question, albeit in maybe a different way, in my post on May 2nd. Btw, you have mail. ;o)

Steel_Datura, I don't have a clue if you feel mileages that are off by 30 - 50 miles one way are acceptable to you, but if you feel that way it is your personal choice. I never mentioned the the GWD was a trip planner - if that was the case I would have suggested it should have maps to the nurseries as well - but I still stick by my theory that it should be a somewhat reliable source for anyone who utilizes it.
I must admit your "breakfast in bed statement" was cute, witty and truly I saw the humor in it. Just do me a favor and please don't tell me you are a building contractor - most folks here don't like to walk to the end of their property or the end the road just to get to their kitchen either.

I am going speaking my personal opinion concerning this matter once and for all... If anyone feels this aspect of the GWD doesn't matter a bit it's a personal choice. I feel the intent of this site when it first started as DG in 2000 was to be a first-class operation and any of the sister sites that have been created were planned to carry through with the same professionalism as well. My opinions/questions concerning this factor of the GWD were made honestly, and if the "map thumpers" have a problem so be it. I may change my mind if they start paying my mortgage though. :o)

Once again, we are talking about L/L (as the crow flies), not actual miles. So if there is a discrepancy here or there of 30 - 50 miles and we haven't seen any crows complaining of the extra flying they did from their nest to a nursery, I really don't understand the problem.

People still need to find their own way around this planet of ours via the ground so L/L is of no relevant use. GWD does not offer map services nor a bag lunch for the trip.

The wrong information you refer to is presented by people for informational purposes. If we as members want to help with the correction of misinformation, the DG community will benefit. But to refer to DG and the sister sites as not being equally 1rst rate and professional because of the chance of tiring out a few crows unnecessarily is confusing to say the least.

And as far as "walking to the end of your property to reach your kitchen", the analogy was to point to the telephone that's probably next to ones computer. I've used one, they work wonders. :)

Yoohoo, Dave, Terry, anybody!

That's a fix for Dave ;o)

Ulrich, I fixed that days ago! :) Why are you still seeing the old version of the page? Please click the reload button.

dave

Dave, one thing I noticed on the GWD homepage, under "Other searches" is that it says "The Zip Code Search will find the 10 companies that are closest to the zip code that you enter..." when in actuality, you'll get dozens of companies, from closest to not-so-close.

I was too lazy to count exactly how many results it returns, but "10" should probably be replaced or removed altogether ;o)

Gracias. I fixed that, too. :)

de nada

I'm a new user.... and LOVE the garden watchdog. Plus I identify with every single comment on this thread!! I have an intensely stressful job & reading and participating in these comments is somewhere between hilarious and soothing.

Welcome to DG, Morganmom :)