VAT taxes for EU - coming to DG?

Just what we need...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36150-2003Jun9.html

Dave

Isn't that always the way, just when you get ahead the taxes jump right in and take over.

Well, the trouble is, there is a significant amount of work that "would" (conditional tense, notice) be involved here to make DG support this craziness.

I have two choices: increase EU subscriptions to $30 per year to cover the tax and the costs of the extra labor involved with this.

Or, disable EU subscriptions altogether until they repeal this.

Either way, it's not good news. :(

Dave

I would support any decision you have to make with regard to upping the subscription. DG is not a site to go away and certainly would hate to disable EU subscribers as they are great contributors to DG's information network.

Right now I'm glad Norway isn't a member of the EU...

If you have to increase EU subscriptions; maybe it would be an idea to send an email urging EU-members to pay subscription-fees before July 1, and preferably for a few years ahead?

Is this going to affect all subscribers, or just the one's with member stores?

"eyes"

eyes, the stores are completely separate from DG, so I wouldn't be discussing them here. I would bring it up on the forums at scifstore.com

arsenic: I'm hoping that any EU subscriber here at DG will see this thread and take action on their own.

Dave

Interesting reading for sure. A couple of things jumped out at me - obviously the AOL model is closest to us, since it's a subscription service, whereas most of the other examples are of actual products being bought/sold.

But, it appears that there may be a widespread disregard for the new regulations by many businesses (not that ignorance is an excuse, nor is following the ill-advised lead of others... ;o)

I'd be curious to know if in Europe, there is a VAT on magazine subscriptions. Historically that's been off-limits in the U.S., so it frankly never occurred to me that taxes would be applied to DG or any other "online magazine format.

I can understand and sympathize with bricks-and-mortar retailers that are up against online competitors who are - in some cases - still ducking under the radar screen of collecting taxes. That disparity makes it mighty attractive to buy online, especially on big-ticket items. But I've never paid a tax on any magazine I've subscribed to here in the U.S., nor do I expect to pay a tax on any online equivalent...

Once again a new great law from EU.. I'm happy Finland belongs to it but not in this case.

My subscription is good through October 16th 2004, so I still've got some time to hang here.

We tax goods and merchandise here but not labor. Since DG is and always has been a 'Labor of Love' it should be non taxable!

In the UK magazine subs are 17.5% VAT

I wonder if you might be eligible for tax relief, some groups and clubs are.

Here the VAT rate is 22%. I think it should be reduced on food, it makes foods and such so expensive here.

Here's a comparison list of VAT in some European countries

25% Denmark
25% Hungary (not a member of the EU)
25% Sweden
24,5% Iceland (not a member of the EU)
23% Norway (not a member of the EU)
22% Finland
21% Belgium
21% Ireland
20,6% France
20% Austria
20% Italy
18% Greece
17,5% Great Britain
17,5% The Netherlands
17% Portugal
16% Germany
16% Spain
15% Luxembourg
7,6% Switzerland (not a member of the EU)

What fun!

Boogers.
Is this a tax on goods being sold/sent to EU nations? DG is more of a "service"...would that fall under the guidelines of the VAT law?

I've never known I tax that I liked! The EU is really going to stir up a stink with this if they keep it up. I was hoping things could be kept simple on the internet...but as time goes by and more items are purchased over the net, there might be a legitimate need to tax sales on the net. The problem is the international sales. How in the world are people supposed to keep up with that?! In my opinion (and that's all it is, my opinion)...if the UK is smart, they'll avoid the EU membership like the plague. I think there'll be trouble down the road with the EU (maybe). There are too many competing interests and differences between the members. All of Europe was safe and secure without the existence of an EU. I'm not sure what more they can gain with a union like this...unless they were to truely unify and that may not sit well with many people in Europe...to give up their identity even further. Giving up one's national currency is just one of the many complaints I'd have if I lived in a member state. But...I guess I shouldn't complain. If they wanna do it, I guess that's their business. :)

HCZone6

"if the UK is smart, they'll avoid the EU membership like the plague."

We've been a member since the early 1970s when it was a trading agreement.

"All of Europe was safe and secure without the existence of an EU."

Since when? I'm no fan of the EU but at least the wars between our countries are fought over the table these days.

"I'm not sure what more they can gain with a union like this"

Trade and commerce with the lowering of barriers was the original idea and is still key to the EU

"...unless they were to truely unify and that may not sit well with many people in Europe...to give up their identity even further. Giving up one's national currency is just one of the many complaints I'd have if I lived in a member state. But...I guess I shouldn't complain. If they wanna do it, I guess that's their business."

Don't get me wrong if I had a choice I'd opt out of the EU all together but not for loss of national identity or whether we have our monarchs head on our money but because I don't think we're a compatible group economically, politically and socially. Many member countries have interests outside of the EU and the EU is encroaching not only on those but on our own laws and into our lives as well.

Back on topic

Shoe

Yes, services are taxable here.

Dave, I know, I always have very so interesting comments.. x]

I think Euro - I mean having a same currency is a great things. It makes a lot of things easier. Also the freedom of traveling around Europe just like that with no passport checks etc.

Maybe these are just some of the good things, I know there are a lot of problems in the union as well, and more to come when the new countries join??

Anyway, I think with radical changes, world can renewed and things can be changed. Just sitting behind the table and wishing for a better tomorrow rarely changes anything.

Safe and secure...as in post World War II. I'm well aware of the fighting that has raged over there throughout history. I'm just saying I don't think the EU would be much of a benefit as far as security goes. Obviously, the UK can defend itself and so can a few of the other countries...some to a lesser or greater extent depending on which country we're talking about. But it's not like the US would sit over here and let anything get out of control, let's say if Russia or anyone else decided they needed to annex a few more square miles here and there.

The rest of the issue may be more of a personal preference. Like taxes, who's face is on the money and from which back it comes, who's providing government services for passports, etc, etc. That's why I say it's more your business than mine and it's just an opinion of mine.

At this point I'll keep my mouth shut up and keep my opinions inside my head, I guess it'd be better.

Ditto:) You haven't left for camp yet, Evert?

No, tomorrow (or today in our time) morning. So don't wonder if I won't write here for a week, I will be back on 19.6.

Have fun! Remember to email me when you get back so I can send you the plants. (Sorry for going off-topic!)

When I hear people complaining about our increased taxes, and having traveled just a bit, I always wonder if they are even vaguely aware of the taxes the rest of the world pays. We need to be made more aware of such things before they begin to drastically alter some things we hold dear, and while we can still possibly make a difference. Those taxes support many things, but not necessarily better than our lower taxes do. Education, health care and utilities here, at least in Texas, are a bargain by comparison. I say this at the risk of opening a tender topic, but with the firm conviction that most Americans don't realize how high taxes are in the rest of the world. It's possible that most people in the rest of the world don't understand the difference, either.

The internet sales must surely be making an impact, as this has been a target for several years among legislators. We will probably look back upon this as the Golden Days of Internet Commerce.

I knew that taxes over there were a lot higher but was not aware they taxed food.

This taxation on internet sales may impact all of us in how we buy though and if it includes things like DG it could discourage people from joining and limit our ways of getting to know our counterparts in other nations :~(

Evert

Yes there are good things about being in the EU, not least the travel aspect and the fact I can apply to live in 15 countries without too much red tape. However, from our standpoint the UK is a very wealthy country in comparison to some and it's a bug bear when we pay in the same amount of countries that others take out and we cannot always have the same grants and benefits that are available to other people in the EU. For instance, because of my working background, were I in almost any other country, I could request a grant to set up a farm, but I'm British so I can't. These and similar things are happening and makes us feel like the Black Sheep of the EU.

HCZone6

I know and I'm only replying with my opinion too. I'm not convinced that a safeish 25 years constitues 'not a problem'. The fact that we are open to all sorts of invasion as a small island makes us naturally defensive. Also we can't always defend ourselves, we make alliances with other countries for trade and help such as defence and we've been lucky enough to have some very good friends all over the world so far. Trouble is it's not my business either because we don't have much of a say in what should be and what should never be as far as the EU is concerned because the EMPs aren't elected by the nation.

Zany

Only some countries tax food, so far we still have some control over that.

Aimee

We're so used to being taxed up to the hilt, I wasn't the least suprised to read this.

What has suprised me is that few Europeans have reacted. Perhaps we're waiting to see what happens, it doesn't always come to pass.

Bringing this topic back to the issue of its affect on DG...

The internet VAT tax is -only- on services, not on goods. Further, it's specifically for software selling and subscription services. And, it moves the burden of paying the tax from the consumer to the seller.

It's hard enough to get Europeans to come over and join U.S. forums (as we discussed in another thread in this forum) and I am confident that this new tax will make it even less EU-friendly of a site.

Whether EU knows it or not, they are basically discouraging their citizens from joining U.S. based websites, and they are discouraging U.S. sites from allowing EU folks to join.

Dave

How would they police that tax policy? How would they know you weren't paying all the taxes? Who would you send the collected taxes to? That seems like it would be extremely complicated.

dave, if we 'gift' EU members with subscriptions, will it still apply?

hczone: I don't know how they expect they will be able to enforce this. Most of us Americans are accustomed to being under the jurisdiction of the U.S. gov't alone, and I can't imagine our gov't allowing its citizens to be "gone after" by some other country.

I think the payments are meant to be remitted electronically. They have made it extremely difficult to learn how they expect to be paid and such (with only 2 weeks before the deadline? Who do these people think they are??).

tiG: No, it won't apply. Only payments coming from those countries apply.

Dave

lol...WELL...if it were me...since it sounds like this is something most business owners here probably don't know much about, I'd just ignore it. Like you said, what are they gonna do?...come over and arrest you for not paying?...lol Wow I don't see how this could work. I'm sure (if it really is going to be implemented) most people in non-EU countries would ignore it. The problem, I think, is with companies that have a presence in an EU country, but are not headquartered in the EU. Maybe they'll try to force those companies to pay somehow (since they have a local presence...even if the web site is not operated out of an EU country). The company I work for did some layoffs recently (in 2001). We have a global presence and they couldn't lay off a bunch of people in some of the EU countries for at least 1 year after everyone else got the notice, because of strange labor laws. This international way of doing business can only get more complicated. What I fear is a true globalization of how we all work and how we spend our money. Taxes would be just one small problem. It gives me a headache just thinking about it. That's why I think it's important (for any country) to maintain some sort of national identity. This globalization trend will swallow us all up. I don't wanna be a clone...lol...I wanna be me :)

Oh wait, I have the answer! Remember the cry of our founding fathers as they railed against King George..."No taxation without representation!" I'm sure the EU won't be providing any representation for you, so why should they tax you?...lol

Addition:

This might apply here...where someone else seeks to levy a tax and the proposed target of the taxes has no representation in the government which is seeking the tax.

John Locke - The Second Treatise of Civil Government, 1690
Chapter 11, Section 140:

"140. It is true governments cannot be supported without great charge, and it is fit every one who enjoys his share of the protection should pay out of his estate his proportion for the maintenance of it. But still it must be with his own consent- i.e., the consent of the majority, giving it either by themselves or their representatives chosen by them; for if any one shall claim a power to lay and levy taxes on the people by his own authority, and without such consent of the people, he thereby invades the fundamental law of property, and subverts the end of government. For what property have I in that which another may by right take when he pleases to himself?"

http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtreat.htm

This message was edited Thursday, Jun 12th 10:12 AM

Ultimately, I'd bet it comes down to the battle for the Euro to overcome the US dollar...

Talk about some hutzpah - do they really think they can pass a law governing conduct of folks residing in another country? Why everyone isn't rolling on the floor laughing out loud at the cheekiness of this type of attitude is beyond me.

And Dave, are you really contemplating complying with the idea that some numbnuts over in Europe think they can pass a law regulating behavior of U.S. citizens in their own country? It would be prudent to remind them that this country came into being because we wouldn't let folks on the other side of the ocean tax us indiscriminately. What have these folks been smoking?

Be careful, Copperbaron ;) It's not the average European citizen that came up with this idea. We're all good neighbors here :)

I've been thinking about this. We get taxed (sort of) already via tarriffs. If a company imports cars to sell here, they have to ay tarriffs on the incoming product...I think that's how it works. I think the thing that complicates this latest idea about taxing activity on the net is the fact that you'll be dealing with thousands of small business owners. Businesses that certainly have no dealings with international tax collection...so it's going to be difficult on those people. How to pay, should they pay?...etc. I guess you could almost look at the tarriffs that are paid on products as a tax on the US consumer by the US government if the product is being imported and sold in the US...because it's the US consumer that would pay the higher price because of the tarriff. I'm not sure how anyone would/could work out a scheme to successfully and accurately collect taxes on small internet-based businesses...collecting the tax directly from the small business. And of course, who would enforce the law anyway? I'm definitely not for the creation of an internation IRS...lol I don't know, it sounds too complicated to me and of course I don't know all the details about the new law/rule, but the very idea of it doesn't sit well with me.

I use to say about the Danish State that it is a greedy elephant with its long nose sticking into everyones pockets and getting fatter and fatter from what honest people have earned. I am sorry that this tendency now also has shown its grey face in EU regi. As HCzone6 say: "It's not the average European citizen that came up with this idea".

Darn ... what`s that nose doing in my pockets ... and what is that with that big ears? ... I just thought that I could afford those 30 $ for a new years sign-up here, but the elephant ate half and its stronger than me :( In my next life I want to buy a landrover and go on big game hunting ... (JK) :)

To be serious about it ...

As for me personally 30 $ won`t scare me off *lol* I think that many Europeans here probably feel the same way ... or that is my hope it is so, because closing DG down for EU memberships only serves to ad to the seperatism between Contries and States, but DG is a living proff, that people from all over the world gets along wonderfully and its not an unknown sentence here that someones post has saved someone elses day and friends in different locations supported each other through tough times :)

Speaking regarding the Brugmansias and Friends forum (the forum I know better than my own pockets) I know that my face don`t matter much there *lol* However, a large capacity as Monika Gottschalk would be but a saga there and the histories of what become of Evert and Mitjo`s Brugmansia seedlings would be lost on that forum forever.
JMHO
Tonny

Talk about greedy states, have you heard about California?
Don't worry about the tax affecting Dave's Garden. DG has got nothing to do with commerce.

hczone6, I didn't mean to imply that all folks in the EU took the viewpoint of thinking it was okay to tax US citizens in their own country. As I said, it is obviously a few numbnuts, albiet numbnuts in a position of power that somehow gave them the idea that it was actually feasible to tax us. I am not sure how you could have mistaken my previous statement to imply that I thought it was your average EU member.

DG is not only just a service, it is definitely non-profit. Even the sale of such things as cook-books and T-shirts still do not make DG profitable. Perhaps you should look into getting a non-profit status, Dave.

Well I just didn't want people from other nations to get the wrong impression of us Americans. Sometimes text alone can leave a lot to interpretation...so all I was getting at was, I always try to be careful about what I say if it deals with other people. I've been accused of several things in the past, when it was all a misunderstanding...they didn't understand the point I was trying to get across. I know what you mean though.

This thread has made me appreciate a lot of things, like how many things I pay for, and have never given a moment's thought to anyone asking me to pay tax on it (Ignorance IS bliss, as they say ;~)

It's also made me appreciate (again) Dave's decision to keep political topics off-limits here. While this issue has obvious political underpinnings, I'm guessing that Dave brought it up to alert our members within the EU to this situation, and to discuss tactical and strategic ideas for DG in light of an imposition of taxes on European subscriptions.