Planting over sod?

This may be a dumb idea, but I've been thinking of trying it this spring. Please let me know if this will work or if I'm wasting my time. If I'll be wasting my time, I can use that time in another area of the yard, because it all needs help.

I really want to put in a new bed in an area that I did nothing to last year except mow. It's pretty much just pasture type grass and I really don't want to start digging it out.

Eventually, I would like it to be a perennial bed. What I'm thinking of doing is putting newspapers directly on the sod, then compost and topsoil piled about 6 inches high. Then I'm thinking of planting just annuals there this year. In the fall, till it all up, and add more ammendments and maybe cover it for the winter. Then the following spring, plant the perennials.

Will this work or will I still be fighting the grass trying to come through? I'm looking for an easy way to do this, as I really hate digging up sod.

Joan, that will work well - you've just invented lasagna gardening again! LOL. I've done it a couple of times, just be sure you put down at least 16 layers of newspaper and overlap them well. The grass will try to break through any place there's a gap. I have a bed that Jessie and I did last fall. We even stuck a few daffodil bulbs in the mulch and straw and they are up out there under the snow. You might not even have to till it, if you keep it mulched well. Good luck, and keep up posted.

Joan I'm going to try this too since I have large areas that need digging up. I have been researching soil quite a bit and although my builders compacted and 'lost' the topsoil, according to my findings it is not a good idea to disturb existing ground. So the lasagna method is the way to go!! The results of this effort should prove very interesting!!

Yes, this is a great idea! If you put enough organic material on top (i.e. kitchen scraps, unfinished compost, corn meal), then mulch it, it will draw earthworms to the top and they will "till" the area under your ammendments for you. Cool, huh?! BTW, though earthworms love cornmeal, it can act as a pre-emergent, so you would be better off not using it if you plan to plant seeds there the first year.

The only thing I have found that it doesn't smother out and that later becomes a problem is Bermuda grass. I built a raised bed, 12" tall with atleast 10" of soil in it, over a patch of Bermuda and it grew through to the top! I dismantled the bed after fighting the grass for three years and found long runners at the original ground level still very much alive and sending up shoots through the 10" or so of soil to the top in that raised bed!!! But others have said they've had good luck killing Bermuda doing just what you propose. Maybe since I'm in the perfect hot/dry climate for Bermuda, it just didn't work for me, but being in North Dakota, you won't have that problem?

Hi Joan,

I've done this same approach for the first time this year around my fence. I began in January, 2002 since the weather was acting like October. Some areas are still in progress. Other areas are just calling out to me to nourish some baby plants :) I mixed the top soil with cow manure in a 3:1 ratio. I am planting both perennials & annuals this year. Then, next year, I am hoping to replace the annuals with new perennials so that I have less to start each year from scratch. Good luck & I ditto Kathleen on using plenty of layering (I used 20 papers thick after reading about lasagne gardening via several links posted on DGs). One more thought. I am taking pictures along the way and posting them to my journal here at DGs. Right now, just the before pictures are there, but I hope to be adding more throughout the year.

Regards...

Thank you all for your help. I wasn't sure if this was lasagna gardening, since I don't know much about that. I thought you had to leave it until the next season too, and I didn't want to do that.

I don't think we have bermuda grass, but I might be wrong. We have something the locals call broom grass that has roots to the center of the earth though. I used to have some of that in the raspberry patch when we first moved here, but I've managed to get rid of that finally.

I'm going to start saving all the newspapers from work and as soon as the snow melts get started on this. You've all made me much happier now that I know I can bypass digging all the sod out. That thought was almost enough to make me not build this bed, as it will be a large one.

I've printed this thread out so I have it ready to re-read all the helpful ideas and tips you have all offered. Thank you.

I'm off to look at Morph's pictures now. I love to see other peoples projects.

Joan

Here's the site about the lasagna gardening http://www.lasagnagardening.com/ I broke down and bought the book. Honestly ... I think the book is rather monotonous once you get the basic idea down. I want to try this under my pine trees so I can plant some shade lovers and groundcovers there. With all the tree roots I'd never be able to till the soil. This lasgana method seems like it would work well.

as I have to buy dirt to put on top, does anyone know how to figure how much dirt for how big a section? It's a big factor in whether or not we do a new front bed this way this year.

Joan, in your zone, it's very unlikely you have Bermuda - I don't *think* it's hardy past 6 (maybe 5). Lucky you :)

tig: The people you buy the dirt from can give you those figures. Tell them how big the patch is, and how deep you want to cover it, and they'll tell you how many yards you need to buy.

tiG: if you mix it with manure, that may help bring your cost down a little & really help with a rich soil mixture. I'm not sure if they are about the same cost per yard or not. But, I do know that they can deliver both at the same time which usually helps with delivery cost. Here, if you order any combination of 3 yards or more, it is free delivery. For my project this year, I bought mine by the bag since my project has spanned three months so far & I don't have anywhere to store that amount of soil/manure.

Last year my sister used Roundup on a shaded hillside area of her lawn, spread about 4 to 6 inches of mulch, waited the necesary time ( I don't recall how long, but not much) for replanting, and dug a hole, putting in ammendments, and planted Hosta. She has a very heavy soil, but her area that was a pain to mow is lovely now.

I buy mine in the bag, too. Even for bigger projects where it's hard to get the skid-steer loader into ~ it's easier to carry bags than to shovel it in a wheelbarrow and wheel it to the bed (of course, putting the bags in the wheelbarrow is even easier still!). The price difference for bags versus truckloads isn't enough to make me do it by hand.

tiG, multiply the length x width x height of your bed to figure out how many cubic feet you'll need. Just don't do what I did and multiply length in feet x width in feet x height in inches! LOL! I round up the length and width measurements so I have whole numbers in feet for them. For height, I use the following:

0.92 feet = 11 inches
0.84 feet = 10 inches
0.75 feet = 9 inches
0.67 feet = 8 inches
0.59 feet = 7 inches
0.5 feet = 6 inches
0.42 feet = 5 inches
0.34 feet = 4 inches
0.25 feet = 3 inches

BTW, there's 27 cubic feet in a yard. And the bags should have a measurement in cubic feet ~ at the store I buy from, an approx. 40 lb. bag of topsoil is one cubic foot, I think. Composted cow manure is a little less weight, but the same volume.

Wow allot of good info here.

Wingnut, doing mine in bags too, and I'm mixing half topsoil, half humus/manure. thanks so much for the info, that will help tons!!!

You're so welcome, tiG! And that sounds like a great mix. I'll bet your plants will do well in that.

An article in our newspaper last week talked about one of the big seed manufacturers (Burpee, maybe?) testing this type of gardening, and their plans to sell "specially formulated" seed mixes - I think they said they're calling it "sodbusters" or something like that.

Thank you wingnut for all the information. You probably saved me hours of trying to figure this out.

I'm getting my topsoil by farmtruck loads though, so I'm not sure how to figure that out. I can come closer to guesstimating it now though. Gotta ask my farmer friend who owns the truck I'm going to be using how many yards it will hold.

BTW - tonight when I ran these plans through DH, he rolled his eyes. The nerve! I gotta find a way to get him interested in this landscaping project. That's the only way to stop the eye rolling I'm afraid, and I could use some more help out of him. LOL!

Joan, if you get any answers in this department, PLEASE do share!

I will Morph, but I'm not holding my breath. LOL

You're sure welcome, Joan! And here are the answers to your (and Morph's) other questions:

A standard pickup bed (not stepside or shortbed) holds about 66 cubic feet or almost 2 1/2 cubic yards if it's full to the top but not over.

To get more help and less eye-rolling out of DH, tell him:
"But honey, landscaping increases property values!"
"Gardening is cheaper than marriage counseling."
"Well, If I can't fully enjoy this hobby, I'll just go fully enjoy my other hobby ~ watching exotic male dancers." *grin!!* HTH!

This message was edited Monday, Mar 25th 9:39 PM

:) Great ideas, Wingnut! I'll try them each, progressively as needed. LOL ~ we'll see how much progress I make with DH ~ thx & wish me luck!

Wingnut, Your Bermuda grass story sounds like a nightmare.
I can see that happening to me!! Scary!

Some info for sharing:

I called our AG EXT Agent and asked his advice. He said to wait until the Bermuda grass starts to green up, then spray it with Roundup, including a 3-6" margin around edging of bed.
Wait 2-3 weeks; if there's any sign of green, spray again. When you don't have anything green coming back, head for the newspaper pile and start layering.

You lucky people who haven't been introduced to BERMUDA grass!!

Hope this is helpful. TQ

i like card board on the bottom it will kill the grass if just left on a spot and kept wet with nothing else on it

Morph!! I figured out what it takes to stop the eye rolling and get some help. Tears, not big ones, just little ones.

Tonight I had my garden plans all layed out on the floor working on them, and one of DH's buddies called (again) for help. When he came in to tell me where he was going, I was hurt. I just looked up with tear filled eyes and said "okay". Of course, then he wanted to know what was the matter with me. I told him that I was working hard on trying to get OUR place shaped up by myself, and I wished he would take as much interest in what we have to do, as he does in what his buddies need. He just looked at me kinda funny and walked out. I was even more hurt.

But....about 20 minutes later, he came back and said he wasn't going to Don's house after all. And, what was I working on? He actually sat down with me and looked at what I was doing, offered his input, and helped me figure out the best places to plant the things I have growing. After looking at my plans, he said we need to get more trees to help us figure out how to make these plans 'fit'. Then he went and measured my growlight stand to finally build the other layer I've been asking for.

I don't know how long this is going to last, but I have hopes. Somehow I have to lure him in and hook him on this project.

"I told him that I was working hard on trying to get OUR place shaped up by myself." ~ That's kind of how I feel. Although, I do enjoy it and since I find so much pleasure in it, maybe I'm not giving DH any opportunities to help where he MIGHT be willing/interested. Sounds like you may have broke through the ice a bit & how sweet that your DH decided not to go and actually sat and listened to your plans! You've given me hope & some ideas :) Now, if I could just remove the memories my husband has of being forced to mow the lawn as his punishment! How cruel to force nature as a punishment upon someone. That's just not right...

Oh, Morph! How awful of a "punishment"! Maybe you can help ease some of those memories by letting your DH know that making more flowerbeds in your yard means less lawn? I know I'm sometimes a joker, but I'm serious now. Might help if he thinks of it that way?

And Joan! I'm so sorry that you had to cry! But I'm SO glad that your DH decided to come around! Not every man would do that. I hope this "gumption" of his lasts a LONG time! It's a lot more fun to do gardening things with your mate, isn't it? I'm glad that I'm blessed with a mate that likes gardening, but I still have to prod him to help me do things. He, like yours, will jump to help other people do things while I've been asking forever for him to help me. We had a "showdown" not long ago, too. What he told me (once I drug it out of him! LOL!) was he liked helping other people because it made him feel like a "hero." So I make it a point to make sure he knows he's my "hero" too. My sis's DH and a close friend's DH do that same thing, too ~ maybe it's a "guy thing"?

Regardless, I'm glad you have some help now!!!

dave719, Have you tried killing Bermuda grass with a layer of wet cardboard?

This Bermuda will probably green up pretty soon.

TQ

You know what really got Howie interested in "my" hobby of gardening?

Ya ready?

Participating in Dave's Garden! He especially got more psyched after chatting with folks from here online and after meeting some of the folks. Yaaaaaay, Daves!

Mmmmm, Gardenwife.... If I get DH hooked, we'll constantly be "negotiating" over who gets to use the computer ~ any recos for that?

Thought I would add my adventures in lasagna gardening to this thread. I have used this method the last couple of years. I started with a thick layer of newspaper, not fussy, folded, whatever, just pile it on, don't use colored print though. (Just don't try it on a windy day!) Then I spray the paper with the water hose to keep them in place. Next, it's time to clean out the horse stalls, (or whatever kind of animals you have)and I make a layer about 6 inches thick on top of that. The next step is old loose hay left in the barn in the spring. I make that nice and deep as well. Then I use the hose again and water it all down real well to keep it in place, and get it cooking!

I start my beds in late summer or fall, and the next spring I make little pockets, add soil where I am going to put the plants, and you have made a bed as huge as your supplies will permit, for very little effort, and a little help from mother nature. By the second season, it has simmered down to a slightly mounded, already mulched, very rich bed with no weeds. Of course I guess it wouldn't work well if you have to purchase the manure and the hay, but it's a great side benefit for us country folk. You might have a few folks ask you what the piles are for, but as gardeners, don't we get alot of eye-rolls from non-gardeners anyway? Try it, it works great! L