It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 6

I'm still hanging out with the zinnia every chance I get. Weather is holding nicely - Surprisingly here it is November and the zinnia are still alive and well. Different views - same garden.

So beautiful, Brenda!

I'd be hanging out in the Zinnia too! I see a couple of yellow ones in pic #2, is that a regular occurrence?

Thank you - thank you!

Robin - Apparently yellow is not one of my knock your socks off colors when I am collecting seed. Nor, do I collect many white seed. I must work a little harder on that. Perhaps I should try planting just a white/yellow row in one of my garden rows. It would be interesting to see what color they actually turn out.

I am also continuing to save zinnia seed. I did just save seed from a white zinnia separately, and I may grow a few of them indoors. White is an interesting zinnia color. Most of the zinnia colors are based on some of several organic "dyes", but there is no "white dye", so I assume that white zinnia petals must achieve their whiteness by some kind of cellular structure. I doubt that an actual white pigment is involved. As an amateur artist I have used a fair amount of titanium white pigment, but I strongly doubt that white zinnias contain any titanium pigment, or white pigment of any sort.

My best guess would be that the white petals contain what they call a structural color -- the same principle as a white snowflake that melts to clear water, and the individual parts of the snowflake may consist of clear crystalline ice.

Many years ago, and I mean many, the Burpee seed company had a strain of cactus zinnias that they called Luther Burbank, and it consisted almost entirely of many pastel shades, in many different "paint chip" colors. I strongly suspect that all of those pastel colors involved one or more crosses with white zinnias. And today the best looking green zinnia (in my opinion), the Tequila Lime from Burpee, looks like it is a cross between a green zinnia and a white zinnia. I think white is a good color to use in crosses with other zinnia colors, because just like a white background in a painting can improve the look of the colors over it, I think that white can improve zinnia colors.

It is still freaky warm here for November, and I am attaching a picture of my South Zinnia Garden taken only a few days ago. Last year at this time the blackened remains of a very hard killing frost were already in trash bags for disposal at our local landfill. I don't compost zinnia material to keep down the disease problems.

ZM

Hello. I stumbled across this thread and read the entire thing. I love zinnias. I am currently trying to grow some haageana indoors in a large aquarium with heat pad and specialized plant lights. Ideally, I would like to hybridized them. But even if I fail I am enjoying the very act of trying.

All of the current seedlings look normal except this one. As you can see, it has three cotyledons and three true leaves. Is this common/normal? Occasionally I have had a seedling with three cotyledons but then it grows normally where is this one not only has three cotyledons but also three true leaves.

I have never hand hybridized zibnias before. I don't quite understand how to find and then transfer of pollen from one flower to another. Can somebody break it down in simple terms? Sorry, I feel dumb!

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. It has been fascinating and fulfilling to read, especially with a blanket of snow outside!

Hello Jai,

Welcome to this message thread. Growing zinnias indoors can be challenging, so good luck on that. Be on the lookout for an outbreak of small insects or foliage disease like Powdery Mildew. There are insecticides and fungicides that you can use to deal with those problems if they arise.

The appearance of three cotyledons is not uncommon, but the subsequent plan-of-three true leaves is much less common. I have always thought it would be nice to have zinnias on a plan of three, and I refer to the occasional specimens as "threesies" and abbreviate that "3Z" on my labels. So far I have not succeeded in getting a strain of 3Z zinnias, but I have had some with 3Z branches. A tendency toward 3Z is apparently a genetic factor, so 3Z is a viable goal.

" I have never hand hybridized zibnias before. I don't quite understand how to find and then transfer of pollen from one flower to another. Can somebody break it down in simple terms? ".

The pollen in produced in the morning in the center of the flower in the pollen florets, which resemble fuzzy yellow starfish. The pollen should be rubbed on the stigmas, which are like little two-pronged forked tongues. They are also yellow, but are tendril-like, and there is usually a stigma at the base of each petal. The flower parts for Z. haageana are considerably smaller than their counterparts on Z. elegans, which makes it a bit more tedious to manipulate them. Good tweezers, Twissors, or small forceps are needed to manipulate the small florets. Basically, you just "pick" a floret and rub it on the stigmas. You can also transfer pollen with an artists brush. The zinnia pollen is a yellow powder, and it does not keep like some pollens do. You need to apply zinnia pollen soon after getting it.

Feel free to ask questions, make comments, or ask for clarifications.

ZM

Good tutorial Zman, do ever remove petals to access the stigmas better?

Thank you. I don't think I have ever paid much attention to the stigma.

I am going to try to grow this three-leaf plant to adulthood. I chose Z. haageana because it is more compact and can be grown with heating pads and plant lights. I already plan to apply an antifungal spray preventatively but I'm not sure how big the plants should be before I apply it. Can the spray itself actually hurt the seedling? That's what I'm concerned about.

ZM do you cut off the pollen florets of the flower you want to receive the pollen, so it will not be self pollinated?
Do you use a magnifying glass?

Hi Robin,

" do [you] ever remove petals to access the stigmas better? "

No, I can always access the stigmas by just holding up the petals above them.

For tubular petaled zinnias, in which the stigma is inside the tube and hence inaccessible, I do "surgically" expose the stigmas by removing part of the tube. I am trying to "breed away" the necessity for doing that by breeding for internal anther bundles in the tubes. Right now that means crossing Razzle Dazzles (which already have internal anther bundles because their "petals" are just modified pollen florets) with the tubular and exotic petal forms.

ZM

Hi Jai (that rhymes ?)

" I chose Z. haageana because it is more compact and can be grown with heating pads and plant lights. "

Actually, Z. elegans (and Z. hybrida) can be compact, because there are compact cultivars, and even the regular sized zinnias can be grown with fluorescent lights and germinated with the help of heating pads. I prefer the regular sizes of zinnias because outdoors I don't like to stoop or kneel to work with them. Indoors I can raise my shelves and lights to accommodate any of my zinnias.

Actually, Z. elegans can "out compact" Z. haageana with varieties like Thumbelina, which can put out a first bloom at only three inches high and ultimately form a "bush" only 6 inches high.

http://www.burpee.com/flowers/zinnias/zinnia-thumbelina-mix-prod000444.html

I already plan to apply an antifungal spray preventatively but I'm not sure how big the plants should be before I apply it. Can the spray itself actually hurt the seedling? That's what I'm concerned about.

I don't apply a spray indoors, to avoid contaminating the air. When I first see a sign of a fungus, I include a dilute systemic fungicide in the plant water. They take the systemic up through their roots and it makes the whole plant protected, including new growth. Sprays fail to protect new growth. You may go for months before you see a sign of a fungus disease. I was almost into Spring before I spotted Powdery Mildew one Winter. (See the photo.) Some Winters I don't see any foliage problem. For zinnia foliage problems my motto is "If it's not broke, don't fix it."

I do routinely include dilute systemic insecticide in the plant water for my seedlings. Primarily to prevent fungus gnats. But also any other insect that might want to invade. For insects indoors, prevention is better than cure. Aphids and thrips can be really bad indoors, because they can work concealed inside the zinnia blooms. Sprays can't get to them there, but systemics wipe them out.

Properly diluted, systemic fungicides and insecticides are harmless to zinnia seedlings and plants. And systemics instead of sprays make a lot more sense indoors. And work better, too.

ZM

Hello everyone,

I just attempted to pay for a one-year extension to my soon-to-expire subscription.

Dave's Garden refused to let me pay from my MasterCard, whose complete information I entered. The entry page iimplied that you could pay by card OR by PayPal. But on the payment page, there was only the opportunity to enroll in PayPal to make the payment. PayPal has let me use their service before to make a payment for a software update with my card WITHOUT joining PayPal, so I know they can honor that option. But Dave's Garden offers ONLY the option to SUBMIT to PayPal. If you do join PayPal, you have to READ, UNDERSTAND, and SUBMIT to a lengthy agreement that is advantageous to PayPal. I have no intention of submitting to PayPal.

This is not the first outrageous experience I have had with Dave's Garden and I would not be here now if a participant here had not paid for my present subscription. This is not about the money -- I can afford the subscription and I am willing to pay for it. But I am not about to be forced to SUBMIT to a ridiculous unnecessary PayPal agreement.

This could turn out to be my last message here on Dave's Garden. I have enjoyed your company, but I won't submit to PayPal. I am active and accessible at GardenWeb and also at Garden.org.

ZM

Thank you. It has been confusing to me that the two forums are different because it seems like the same conversation is going on in both places.

I do not have to pay for use of this website, I wonder why you have to.

That is too bad Zenman. I have so enjoyed seeing all your creations and those of other posters. I would say ask Admin about payment but I do not think they would answer you even if you found a forum where to ask.

I do use Paypal but grudgingly. Oddly I had my own account until a few years ago when I hit an amount they had set, maybe $3,000 or perhaps $10,000 and suddenly I needed to give them my bank info in case I was not trustworthy. I found this odd since I had already had so many positive transactions. I refused but my husband succumbed to them so I use his.

I am somewhat confused. I did not have to pay in order to register for this website. Will I have to at a later date?

Sorry, I don't mean to seem stupid. But I am stupid. :P

No, you won't have to pay later unless you want access to all of the website and be free of ads. I think you also have more access to PlantFiles as a paid member. A lot of this site is free to everyone, some forums are blocked if you are not a paid member. It is only $19.50 a year so fairly cheap if you look at it per day.

Yah I know what you mean about PayPal. I may not renew either then. Oh well, I will "see" you elsewhere on the web.

Hello all,

I am happy to report that I did get another Dmail reminder from Dave's Garden that my subscription expires tomorrow, and once again provided a link to make a payment. I followed that new link and, this time, there had been some changes, and I was able to pay with my debit card, through PayPal, this time with just an option to create a PayPal account, along with a No thanks option, which I chose.

I don't know of any downside to paying through PayPal while bypassing reading or submitting to PayPal's extensive "agreements". Like I mentioned before, I previously paid for a software upgrade the same way. I am very glad that Dave's Garden removed the previous requirement to submit to the PayPal agreements. Hopefully there is no hidden "gotcha" to this current process.

Now I have only to wait for those sweet Dave's Garden snowflakes to fall and melt on my tongue. Those snowflakes are coming, right ?

ZM

Yay about the subscription Zman. You can always come to MI if KS fails to assault grace your tongue with snowflakes. I'm so willing to share.

Hi Robin,

" I'm so willing to share. "

Are you sure you have enough? I wouldn't want to eat up all of your snow.

When we were kids, we used to make ice cream out of the snow. With the help of our Mother. It was better than it sounds. It was a bit like a vanilla custard snow cone.

ZM

I remember that too!
We got a bowl of snow and mixed in ?Sweetened Condensed Milk?
We used to do it in school, bringing the snow in at recess. We always joked about making sure we chose fresh snow that was not yellow. I loved it.
Probably a teacher who did that in school now would be fired...

Oh boy, I've got plenty of snow that's not yellow...come and get it...snow cones for everyone! Merry Christmas from me!!! ;)

Wasn't it Frank Zappa that sang "Watch out where the Husky's go and don't you eat that yellow snow".

Merry Christmas, everyone.

I remember the Zappa tune , Triogladax or something like that .

Love the Frosted zinnia Zen ,

Merry Christmas to you and all also

Happy Holidays!

Yes, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone...

Happy New Year, Everyone !

Fiber optic zinnias? Your results amaze me sometimes, ZM! Put me down for some of that seed! I want to line my walkways with it!
Happy New Year!

Cool Jai...it was here you posted your first pic. Amazing, isn't it?

LOL Loretta, thanks for the chuckle!!!

Hello Zinnia people,

I thought I would check back on Dave's Garden, as I have not been here in a long while - I was looking to see if there was any zinnia activity. Nightfall ran be out of my #3 zinnia patch before I was ready to call it a day. Between the kitten grabbing me around the leg and the dog running through the zinnia pestering the kitty - I managed to do some zinnia tagging while there. WHAT FUN! Such brilliant colors. Here are a couple of my 2017 interesting blooms/plants. The #1 zinnia is most interesting as it has a slight tingle of yellow around each petal. The #2 zinnia has the three leaves instead of the normal two. The #3 is a remnant of my last years rose looking zinnia. I don't get many zinnia volunteers, but I figure that they are pretty healthy when I do and I always give them room to grow and bloom. Another words, they are never a weed in my garden. Hoping for zinnia feedback.

Brenda, that pink with yellow is beautiful! And ZM, I love the rich color of the first and third, the third reminds me of a chocolate cosmo.

It's like velvet!

ZM - Those are brilliant colors of zinnias that you have growing in your South Garden. Beauties! I was trying to post a couple more pictures, but this system does not seem to be allowing my picture post - it says something to the effect of the picture "location is not available". So, in answer to your question, I will just tell you that the zinnia that I had recently posted a photo of, that has a tinge of yellow around each petal does not have yellow on the back of each petal. That yellow on the reverse would truly have made it spectacular.

Here we go - now this system is letting me post a picture or three. These are the result of some of my hybridizing. The #3 photo here is another bloom from the same plant as the # 4 photo (which is the one I posted a couple days ago) with the tinge of yellow on the outer petals.

Hope others enjoy zinnias at least half as much as I do.