Miniatureized Aeonium arboreum doesn't make sense

About a week ago, I rescued a tiny Aeonium arboreum variegatum from a 1.5 inch pot in a Walgreens display.

This plant was an almost perfect miniature version of a normal A. arboreum, yet it was less than 3 inches tall, and had proportionately slender branches with tiny rosettes. There were about 7 branches when I bought it, none of which were thicker than about a pencil lead, on a 3" stalk that was more narrow than a drinking straw. The largest rosette had about 10 tiny leaves, and wasn't much bigger around than a quarter, and the smallest rosette was about 4 leaves and not 1/4 of that size.

I can't believe this would be normal in nature because the plant is too delicate at this size to survive. It seems to me that in nature, plants would grow upward with a thicker stalk and larger rosettes before branching. Most seedlings are not tiny replicas of the parent plant for good reason.

I've searched many photos for images of any Aeoniums that are perfect miniatures like this, and I haven't found any. I suspect this one was kept tiny with growth inhibitors, but I want to know.

Has anyone grown A. arboreum from seed? Ever seen a perfect Barbie Doll sized Aeonium? Any evidence that this miniature plant was or wasn't achieved naturally?

I'm not looking for guesses. I'd like some kind of evidence or reasonable explanation. Thanks for any insight.

It's not a version of A. arboreum, but another sp.
I see these here everywhere and they are naturally dwarf.
I find they make poor houseplants; it might improve if you put it outside (in light shade at first), and give it regular water.
They won't take your winter cold, so you will have to bring it back in and try to get it through the winter on a windowsill.
A good article on the group:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1058/

Do you know what species it is derived from? When you say they are everywhere in your area, and naturally dwarf, do you mean you're seeing them grown this size in private collections, or you're seeing them this size in shops? I've been unable to unearth any information whatsoever on a dwarf species - and usually end up back at A. decorum, 'kiwi.' How do you know they're naturally dwarf? If you have any info, please share it.

Unfortunately, I don't know if my little rescue will make it. Shortly after purchase, it dropped the remaining rosettes. It is now a stem with a few tiny, bare branches. I hope it has enough resources left to bud again. I tried to start the rosettes, but the largest one, a small one, and one from a dead plant in the shop all died within days of planting - even though everything says they're so hardy and so easy to start. Two tiny rosettes are still hanging on, but are so small that the risk of desiccation is very high.

If you can get hold of any of these miniaturized Aeoniums in your area, I would trade with you or purchase some from you. I've become quite enchanted with them, but I've searched all the remaining stores here, and I apparently got the last one (and the stores aren't getting more).

Thanks for the link to the Aeonium article. I'd read it some time ago before I found this little guy. Great article. It might even be the article that finally prompted me to join DG, but I've read so many excellent articles on this site that I can't be sure.

I think your plant is form or hybrid of A. cuneatum, but I am not very sure of that ID. Other dwarf sp. include haworthii and leucoblepharum. There are others too. These are planted widely in San Francisco and coastal California. Our climate is similar to the climate of the Canary Islands where they arose.
There' s a guy in Germany that sells seeds - his website has good data. http://www.rareplants.es/shop/prodtype.asp?CAT_ID=584
I sell plants, but I do not ship anything. Sorry, I can not trade with you. You should be able to find succulent specialists there in Oregon. I used to visit a great little nursery just South of Newport; I don't recall the name or know if they're still open, but they had a great selection.
Best of luck with your plant.


This message was edited Aug 22, 2014 1:53 PM

I agree, it's not Aeonium arboreum. There are many Aeonium species and hybrids (in all sizes) and they are not easy to identify. If you want to learn more, there are two books with helpful information and pictures. One is Rudolf Schulz's Aeonium in Habitat and Cultivation, the other is Joel Lode's Succulent Plants of the Canary Islands.

Aeoniums are mostly winter growers (that is, fall through spring) and I agree, they tend to make poor house plants because of their need for strong light. This would be a particular issue in the grey days of Oregon winters. Even if you put the plant right by a window it will suffer from the doldrums.

They are not particularly hard to grow from seed if you provide consistent moisture while they are very young (seeds are quite small). I have had volunteer seedlings pop up in other pots in very exposed situations.

Got it! (I think.) Aeonium castello-paivae variegata. Don't ask me how I got to that from your suggestions, but I did. Same elongated, spatulate leaves, same sparse leaf pattern, same proportions, and same irregular variegation. An image search gave me a few that are almost identical.

A. leucoblepharum is exceptionally nice. Love the leaf shape and central stripe. I almost wish I hadn't seen it because now I want one!

I have a southern exposure that I'm hoping will give my aeoniums, and other winter succulents enough sun in my new place. In summer, it might be too much sun. I got my winter succulents through last winter in the Oregon woods in a south-facing window with a mirror behind them. They not only survived. The little buggers thrived. I was astounded and encouraged, so I boldly got more. I will need a bigger mirror this winter.

I rescued an A. arboreum atropupureum rosette from a family nursery up the road that grows them under a screen. They have dozens of them, that according to them, they shelter, but don't heat during the winter here. They are 18" tall with excellent color and many branches despite the fact that every single one of them has fallen over, and the soil is downright wet. It makes me want to rethink my "knowledge" of Aeoniums, and makes me hopeful that mine will do well despite the Oregon gloom.

Thank you very much for your insight, suggestions, and all your help!

A south-facing window is exactly what you want for these plants in the winter. That's where I park my indoor succulents and they have not complained. Oddly enough it's not bad in the summer either, because the light comes from more overhead and those more powerful rays are blocked by the house (essentially an overhang when plants are indoors). Regular window glass blocks most UV so the sunlight that passes through is kinder on the plants indoors.

A. leucoblepharum is a pretty plant and a bit of an oddball, coming not from the Canary Islands like most Aeoniums but from East Africa.

Wetness is much less of a problem for Aeoniums than other succulents, especially in season. They do not enjoy going bone dry and will look scraggly when they are water deprived. Just be sure to use a fast draining mix (maybe 20% pumice or perlite).

Good luck!

Not so fast - I have some VERY tiny and old A a 'Zwartzkopf' growing in a dish of succulents. They've been shaded by taller plants for years, yet they refuse to die. I'm guessing they are about 5-8 years old, about 2-3" tall, and the total diameter of the rosette is less than a that of a dime ....... so the plant can be significantly dwarfed by cultural conditions. The plant is a descendant of the one below.

Al

Al, what do your dwarfed Aeoniums look like? Aren't they etiolated? How thick are the stems? Are they branching normally like an A. a. atropurpureum? Show me, show me, show me! You must have pictures.

In 8 years of growing them, have you ever propogated one to see if it really is due to growing conditions, or if maybe you have had a spontaneous mutation? I want more info! If Aeoniums can be miniaturized, I want the secret. I think maybe I want your dwarfed atropurpureum!

That said, my little guy was $1.50 at Walgreens, so I don't think the nursery is growing the things for 8 years. Nevertheless, I want to know everything about your little Aeonium, and I wanna see it!

Costero, I did not know clear glass blocked so much UV. This is good to know. Also good to know about how dry Aeoniums look. I assume the rosette-drop is due to overwatering - an Aeonium equivalent to leaf drop, no?

Thanks guys!

I have seen tiny rosettes like that sprout from plants that I have beheaded, and I would consider them frustrated buds, not anything that could be stably propagated. Aeoniums are survivors and they will hang on through adversity waiting for a better day. Sometimes it's a prolonged limbo.

Aeoniums can look quite different depending on conditions. Season, light, water, and nutrients all affect the way they appear. That is partly why they can be so hard to identify. The rosettes will often close up on themselves during the summer when they are experiencing prolonged drought. This time of year they look pretty awful in general. But miniaturization is not part of this variation.

Overwatering is not something you're likely to detect from looking at the plant itself until it's too late and rot has set in. The best way to figure out how to water is to get a sense of how wet the soil is, by inserting a moisture meter (or a chopstick or your finger) to learn when the soil is going dry.

I pruned an A a 'Zwartzkopf' one year in late Jan, left the cuttings on a piece of newspaper lying on the basement work bench where they grew air roots at the point of truncation and along the stem from above leaf bundle scars. I potted a few up in early May & they took right off.

I'll try to remember a picture. Today's my last day of vacation and the plants are in a dish garden at work.

Keeping them badly root bound also virtually halts growth.

Al

Some pictures here to show the variation I was talking about. This is a particularly choice variety called "Blushing Beauty". Last picture is about what they look like right now.

That is very true. They do like a little legroom.

If you grow an Aeonium hard in a small pot in day-long sun (like on my rooftop patio) it will dwarf significantly. The stems are shorter under those conditions because the leaves get packed in there very tightly. I like the short, squat look myself so I don't mind them being a little runty. Once they hit about 20% shade they start to perk up significantly, without looking the tiniest bit stretched. During the summer they profit from a bit more shade.

Depriving them of nutrients, which I did in my early days of Aeonium growing, leaves them smaller but also less likely to branch or bloom, which I view as negatives. But a little bit goes a long way in this regard, and if you use a decent mix that should be unnecessary for a while, especially indoors.

Are the Aeoniums in the photos all yours, Baja? What's going on in the last photo, seasonal leaf-drop?

What soil do you use?

When you behead a branching Aeonium, do you leave it as just a stem with branches, or do you also remove the branches? Do you place it in sun or shade or cool, or what to recover? How long before you see leaves begin to emerge?

I've left my little headless guy in about 4-5 hours of direct sun, in about 6 or 7 to 1 pumice to soil. I'm worried it's not going to make it. Any pointers are appreciated.

I'm tempted to buy one of the toppled A.a. 'Zwartkopfs' from the nursery up the road. They're quite nice, despite the rosettes growing oddly from them laying on their sides for so long. They're in deep, 6" pots, but their rootballs are puny. The nursery told me to just plant them deeper so they won't fall over. That's a good way to kill a lot of plants. Is it safe for Aeoniums? What would you do to hold an unbalanced Aeonium upright? My pumice is going to be too light to keep it stable.

Yes. Last photo taken late summer, showing the effects of the season (sun, drought). Not so much leaf drop as slowdown in growth and compacting of rosettes. The big pile of leaves under the plant is just the accumulated debris from a few years of growth.

I use regular potting soil (made locally at my favorite nursery) with added pumice (maybe 20-30%). I would strongly recommend you use a mix that's mostly organic instead of one that's mostly pumice.

It doesn't matter too much where you behead the plant. I like to take the rosette plus about half an inch of naked stem. They root and grow faster this way compared to a longer stem. I leave cuttings in mostly shade while they are rooting. It's pretty obvious when they have taken off, usually a couple of weeks later. At that time I move them into more light. The best time of year to start cuttings is in the fall, when plants are coming out of their summer rest period.

Headless Aeoniums may or may not sprout new heads, but you can increase the odds by leaving a few healthy leaves on the mother plant when you cut off the rosette. That will leave you with no extra stem on the cutting, which is not a problem. It's probably a good idea to park headless plants in mostly shade for a while.

If your goal is branching, nip out the center of the rosette without removing the lower leaves. I have a plant that went through this a few weeks ago thanks to a hungry squirrel, and it sprouted several new heads right away.

Don't plant the Aeoniums deeper. Just cut off the heads and start them as new plants. It may seem like a drastic move, but they root quickly and reliably. Then you will have a nice looking plant from the start, instead of trying to salvage one that's seen better days.

This message was edited Aug 26, 2014 12:38 PM

Thank you. I'm trying to gauge what the chances are that my miniature Aeonium will survive since it dropped all its rosettes. It is such a delicate little thing compared to any other Aeonium I've seen - live or in photos. It seems like a seedlings, but don't most variegated cultivars have to be propagated from cuttings to retain their variegation? Seedlings revert to their ancestral form, don't they? This plant is such a curiosity. I really want it to survive.

If I bought one of the 15" A.a.'Zwartkops' from down the road, and I cut off all its rosettes (approximately 8 of them), how long before I could expect any of the cuttings to be the size the the mother plant was before I beheaded it? (I stopped by there yesterday just after they closed - only about a dozen Aeoniums left.)

Sorry for so many questions. I'm just getting familiar with Aeoniums, and there's so much I can't learn from articles!

(In case you couldn't tell) I love talking about plants, so it's my pleasure. Variegates from cuttings yes. Also from leaves. They tend to be a little sensitive to too much sun, so be careful if you're leaving the plant outside for the time being.

Within a year a short (~half inch) Zwartkop cutting will reach about 18 inches tall and fill a gallon pot. At least that's what I saw with my latest batch, growing in 20% shade. There's very little lag involved. You would probably see more dramatic results if you got them hopped up on fertilizer but that's not my style. :)

Wow, that's fantastic growth for a succulent. I'd be very happy with that. I have tropicals that don't even grow that fast.

I'm glad you don't mind all my questions, cuz I have more! :-)

Aeoniums WILL grow from leaves? I thought they only grew from stem cuttings. I have other succulents sprouting from leaves, but my Aeonium leaves just shrivel and die. What's the secret to sprouting leaves? Growing from a leaf would explain how my little variegated oddity could be delicate like a seedling, but still be variegated. The stem is way too thin and soft to be a stem cutting, but it could be a new stem sprouted from a leaf.

Got any leaf-propagation advice?

Also, slightly off-topic, my young Aeoniums (obviously stem cuttings), were opening up like roses a week or so ago and growing well, while some little Graptoveria and Echeveria adjacent adjacent to them were apparently closing - the center leaves moved from being horizontal, flat rosettes, to being nearly vertical (outer leaves stayed flat). I took it to mean they weren't getting enough sun, so I moved the whole mess to a sunnier spot (all in pots). The Graptoveria ('Debi'), and Echeveria ('Pearl von Nurnberg' and mystery cultivars) haven't changed since being moved, but the Aeoniums began closing up again. I moved them back to shade, and damned if the Aeoniums haven't opened again. All of this happened over just days. I didn't think western Oregon was hot enough, or sunny enough this time of year to adversely affect any succulent, and they only got maybe 5 hours of sun. Do Echeveria and Aeoniums really require such different growing conditions? Maybe the Echeveria and hybrids aren't actually etiolating. I don't know. I can post before and after photos if it helps. I just don't know what to think.

The bigger, meatier leaves tend to work better, but in principle almost any Aeonium can be grown from a leaf. It can be a very hit or miss process. Start with a healthy, intact leaf (not one from the bottom of the rosette that's starting to dry out). Put the leaf on top of the soil and leave the pot in bright light but not much sun. Water occasionally. You will see tiny leaflets sprout from the base after a while. It takes some time before the young plants are strong enough for more exposure. Most Echeverias and Graptos can also be grown this way.

Photos would be informative about the changes in your plants. 5 hours of sun can be a lot this time of year if the plants have not been outside, especially if it's midday sun. A gradual adjustment is best. These plants can respond very fast to changes in light. A couple of hours of direct midday sun is plenty for most Aeoniums and Echeverias.

Be aware that summer is not when Aeoniums tend to look their best. If the rosettes are smaller and more closed up, it's not a big deal, provided you are giving them some protection. Echeverias do not show such dramatic seasonal changes. They can also be much more sensitive to lots of sun (it depends on the species).

Both genera are particularly sensitive to extreme heat (like the Arizona desert) but not the relatively mild temps you have.

When in doubt, most Echeverias (and relatives) should be fine in up to half a day or less of direct sun, provided you give them a gradual adjustment. The two cultivars you mention will do fine with that much light.

While we're on the subject, here are some Echeverias that I grew from leaves, finally potted up together a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't trying very hard, just throwing extra leaves from here and there into a pot that I watered like the rest of the plants. This particular cultivar was an aggressive grower and kind of strangled out the other ones in there. They can be radically different in how fast they grow up.

How old are your Echeveria "babies?" They look very nice, and healthy. They have many more leaves than my little ones. Do you know what cultivar? Someone told me that the shiny leaf cultivars appear easier to propagate from leaves than the chalky leaf varieties. All mine have chalky leaves, and I don't think they root as easily as you describe. Sedums root like you describe, and so do my furry little Kalanchoe leaves, but I've lost numerous Echeveria, Aeonium, and Anacampseros leaves.

I will try rooting some inner leaves of my Aeoniums. I have only used outer leaves before. Maybe that's been the problem. I also don't water them, but just mist the soil lightly for fear of rot. I bought the Zwartkopf at the nursery yesterday, and they let me "rescue" several dropped rosettes, so I have plenty to practice with. You don't use rooting hormone? That stuff's so expensive. For the cost of a bottle, I can buy several plants, although that takes the fun out of. I prefer to grow plants from cuttings or seeds. Buying adult plants isn't nearly as satisfying.

First photo is my little ruby Aeonium when I got it a few weeks ago. I don't have a photo of it closed up, but the second photo is of it today after opening again. More open than when I bought it, and growing nicely, but also more green now than ruby.

The next 3 photos are the same Pearl von Nurnberg. It looked like the first photo until a week or so ago when I saw its central leaves lifting. It was in bright shade, except about 3 hours of direct southern sun from around noon to 3 pm, but the sun is already low and southerly here. It was right next to the Aeonium, and as the Aeonium opened, the Echeveria seemed to be getting etiolated. I had put them in a shallow, dark blue Rubbermaid box (no lid) preparing for the impending move, so they were probably warmer than before, but the Aeonium was in the same box, so I can't imagine it was too hot.

1st photo: Graptoveria 'Debi' just after purchase with the Echeveria runyonii I bought at the same time (which interestingly, doesn't appear affected by whatever forces are working on the others). 2nd photo is the same Graptoveria today.

Finally, the unidentified Echeveria(?) hybrid(?) a few weeks ago, and then today.

I do not know the name of my Echeveria cultivar, but it makes pretty bicolored (orange and yellow) flowers.

Just because it's possible to grow plants from leaves does not make it easy to do so. :) But Kalanchoes are in a league of their own in terms of how easily they can be grown from leaves. Like I said earlier, there seem to be big differences between plants in terms of how easy/fast they grow from leaves. The leaf has to be intact all the way to the base for the Echeveria types to sprout. Sometimes it's not that easy to yank an intact leaf and then you can use a sharp knife to nip out a tiny part of the main stem (the part attached to the leaf) so there's no doubt.

From experience I know that watering pots that size about once a week leaves the soil pretty dry by the end, whether or not there are plants in them. The roots are not going to engage nearly as well with mist compared to well moistened soil. The key is that the pot is shallow, and then you can water more often without concerning yourself about rot.

Rooting hormone is totally unnecessary with Aeoniums and most succulents. I avoid it because some products have nasty chemicals in them.

Your Aeonium is doing great and the green color is a sign that it's growing actively. You can try engaging in plant abuse down the road if you really want to see it blush pretty colors. The other plant looks fine. The color you want to avoid there is yellow... pink and green are great. Yellow indicates (possibly) too much sun. I don't see huge differences in the shape actually. 3 hours of direct sun is perfectly adequate and more may not be a good idea at this point.

The first two plants in the second post should be real troopers. They both make offsets at a tidy clip and should give you lots of opportunities to play down the road. Neither one is particularly sensitive to sun. Plan for a final pot size of about 6" for each, provided you are removing the offsets.

Here is an example of what I was talking about. An Echeveria subrigida leaf removed from a flower stem a couple of weeks ago is now sprouting. The brown part to the right is the slice of flower stem I removed with the leaf. Second shot shows the scar (flowering is totally unaffected btw) and third shot shows the mother plant (growing in about half day sun). She does not offset so leaves are the easiest route for propagation.

I just realized I uploaded two photos of the unknown instead of an "after" shot of the Graptoveria. You got the idea though. I haven't been growing these long enough to know what's normal (as you can tell). I see nice compact rosettes in photos, or when I buy them, then mine start reaching for the sky, and it seems wrong to me. I'm glad it doesn't appear etiolated to you. Is this just what they do as they start actively growing again?

Love the color of your Echeveria. Nice. Even the little one emerges in shades of glacial blue. Pretty. I'll make sure to nick a little stem when I try more leaves later on. That's very helpful. Thanks.

Are you starting leaves in straight pumice? I've had mine in trays with out 1/2 inch of loose peat. I've also started a few leaves vertically in paper egg cartons with out 3/4" of soil in each. The idea is that the soul will dry quickly enough to prevent rot. Fungus rules the Pacific NW. If you stand in one place too long, it'll grow on you.

Thanks so much for all your help. I'm so excited all my summer dormant plants are waking up! I will have so many more questions!

Sometimes when I move a plant into a larger pot after keeping it rootbound for too long, there is a weird spurt where the plant responds with rapid growth right afterwards. Maybe you're seeing something like that. Etiolation is pretty hard to mistake once you've grown plants in good light and gotten a sense of normal.

I have been starting the leaves in a mix of maybe 50-60% pumice. The rocks you see on top are just there to hold things down and keep the leaf from moving around. By shallow pots I mean a couple of inches deep. Less than that and I couldn't tell you. You really don't have to worry about anything bad happening in pots that size, provided there's a fair amount of rock in the mix, the plants are getting good light, and you aren't watering much more than once a week.

Not to discourage experimentation, but paper is probably not the best material for a container when you're growing these plants. It will absorb and wick the moisture, distributing it evenly everywhere and probably leading to greater evaporation. Much like a clay pot does the same things. And if it gets wet regularly it will break down over time.