Winter Sowing PNW Style

P.S.

I put around a dozen 3.5" pots into a big translucent tub around 5" deep.
The bodies of the tubs are more clear than milk jugs, but the lid was more opaque.

At first I used the semi-opaque lids that came with the tubs, then cut out the center of the lid and clamped the remainder of the lid over plastic film to hold it in place.

In addition, the porch was in deep shade excpet for very early morning.

I have no source of milk jugs, until I find a recycle bin and rinse out other people's rancid milk :-(

And even the 3.5" pots are bigger than I need for the number of plants I want to WS (and the variety of varieties I want). I'm keeping my eyes open for free 2.5" pots in Emory's Nursery discard bin. I've gotten plenty of 3.5" pots from them, and just a few 2.5". If you want gallon and larger nursery pots, they are on 164th near I-5 in Lynnwood.

Corey

Water jugs, Corey. I don't use milk jugs either! for that very reason. But I do buy distilled water in order to have the danged gallon jugs! (and then I use the water in various ways.) Then I found out a friend was buying the same kind of water so I started scoring her empties.

Get some Sluggo and sprinkle around the area, if the slugs are that bad. The OMRI kind, now, not the "Plus" that says "For Organic Gardening" but is formulated to kill a bunch of other things gardeners worry about that they probably shouldn't. Sluggo itself is just iron phosphate, and it does go right back into the soil from whence it came, and meantime kills excess slugs.

the basic idea with wintersowing is actually to put the seeds outside, with just enough protection (the jugs) to keep germination maximized. But letting the weather and the sun and all have at them. Opaque lids + no sunlight = no plants.

I'm obstinate about paying for water, when there's a 350-foot-deep well near me with super tasting water. I'd sooner hold my nose while rinsing other people's milk (or water) jugs.

And I do like the 3.5 or 2.5" pots, and don't like the idea of putting neat rows of plaqstic discards out for my neighbors to forgive me for. At some point they or park managment will lose patience with all my gardening clutter, and that would seriously crimp my style. You know how small the lots are in my park! Luckily one neighbor already moved out.

If I can't make small-pots-in-WS-tubs work after a few years, I might have to fall back on cut-and-taped jugs, maybe hidden with a translucent screen open to the south, but looking like a cold frame to most neighbors.

I guess I could split one gallon milk jug into four or six zones with plastic dividers, since they're much bigger than I want to start seeds in. Or the half-gallon size comes closer to my goal.

Corey


This message was edited Apr 19, 2011 6:49 PM

These have worked tremendously well for me: The clear plastic square bins that the fancy mixed greens come in at my Safeway. Being vegetarian, I go through one of those big ones (at $5-$6) a week.

They are easy to pierce, easy to label, easy to pop the tops off & on & are easy to stack or arrange because they are rectangular. There are smaller ones, too, but I prefer these because they are maybe 5" deep.

You can duck tape one long side & then prop the lids up too.

This isn't exactly wintersowing, more like giving my basil & nasturtiums a head start, but you get the idea.

I looked back at my last post to see when it was.....April 15. Today I checked and I now have LOTS of snapdragon seedlings in their jug and a few other sprouts in the other ones. That little bit of sun that we have gotten lately seems to have done the trick. I will post more if there is more news.

The one year I played seriously with WS I used the little 4" pots, put them in a tray and put them on the (shallow-pitched) roof of a shed and just let them alone. I think being on the roof helped with the slugs, but there wasn't a lot of weather protection, so things didn't start to come along until about April. With the cold we're having this spring, ugh! I'm glad I didn't try that this year!

I've been using the boxes like SK's here in the house to start seeds. They do work really well. DH has a bit of a Trader Joe's muffin habit, and those muffin trays are my favorites because I think they're just a bit deeper than the other roll trays I have (We don't usually get the lettuce mix boxes.) I have decided that they are not a good choice for peppers, though. Peppers want to be warm to germinate and I think the thin walls kept the soil cooler. Once I figured that out and wrapped them up a bit I started getting better germination.

Sharon, did I ever say thanks for the lobelia pictures? They were quite helpful. Mine are popping up now-it's amazing how small they were at first.

edited to fix typo--d'oh!


This message was edited Apr 20, 2011 11:30 AM

Hmmm, CLEAR WS containers? i thought that 'translucent' helped avoid solarizing the seeds. (I sledom have snbow, but occasionally a winter day will clear up and give brief but intense low-angle sun.

Would 20 ounce or 2 liter clear soda bottles ("pop") be too small or too tall?
I can get hundreds of those from work. Like closed-bottom cloches.
Probably would not "hinge" well, but I could see into them!

I would still try to corral them in something to hold them upright and shield the neghborhs from them.
Leave the screw-tops off so they don't steam-kill the seeds?
Maybe cover the spout with window screening to break up rain drops & keep slugs out?

A 20-ounce bottle is about the right size for me, 12-21 seeds per bottle and expect 30% germination and seedling survival.

A 2-liter bottle would be wastefully large for me unless I could split it in half and still get the seedlings out.

Maybe I won't care about "size" if I perfect a CHEAP well-draining seedling mix that's mostly well-screened medium pine bark mulch, baled peat moss and crushed rock.

Corey

I've seen pictures of folks using 2L pop bottle for WS-I don't see why it would be a problem at all. Same with the smaller ones. I think at the latitudes we are at-and even more so for you than me, clear containers shouldn't be a problem like somewhere lots further south. We have a LOT less light here in the winter.

Course, this is all just my opinion and I'm certainly no expert. I do think it's absolutely worth experimenting with. :)

I think people cut the pop bottles the same as the milk jugs, a couple inches up from the bottom. Not hinged, just all the way through and then maybe taped back together, or just sort of jammed over itself. Another part to experiment with?

I know what you mean about the quantity-I'm on an average city lot and can only use so many seedlings in any given year. I still start more than I can use, particularly if I'm not sure how old the seeds might be (from a swap or something) or I know I'm using some of my older ones.

(One of my experiments this year was seeing what would happen with some lemon cucumber seeds from 1999 that I found stuffed at the very back of a drawer in my garage. I tried the damp paper towel germination method and have had at least 7/11 seeds start to germinate. So far, only one has actually grown, but it's been a fun experiment nonetheless.)

the only problem with size is, you do need enough space for the roots in the bottom and the stem and leaf growth at the top. I found those clear produce/salad boxes to be too shallow.

Yes, leave the screwtops off of soda bottles and leave the caps off of the gallon jugs, most definitely.

Corey, I just used a WS gallon jug to sow three bean seeds for runner beans. I just put them about a third of the way apart. It is not all that hard to separate them when the time comes, you don't need room dividers. :) Unless you are sowing more than a single kind of seed in the container.

I don't put that much dirt in my WS containers & don't care whether they are hunched over by the end, but then I don't plant that many seeds per container either -- nothing like the miniature forests that other people manage -- so they have room to spread out. And near the end I had plenty of room in my cold frames to uncap the salad bins & leave them there.

I'll bet that most approaches work, or can at least be adapted to fit the grower's personality. The plants do, after all, have an interest in surviving!

But definitely listen to Kyla over me because all my WS was done in Illinois, where the climate was much harsher & stuff grows more slowly.

Kyla,

>> Unless you are sowing more than a single kind of seed in the container.

Yes, that's what I mean. I'm trying to test many perennial varieties, a few plants of each. Hence many 3.5" pots, a different variety in each pot.

If they can survive in my yard (including slugs), they should propagate themsleves for at least a few years.

I am trying a few annuals, like cold-weather salvias, in WS tubs, but every salvia variety did better in indoor trays (this year) than outdoors. Some are over 1/2 inch tall and have one pair of real leaves! (I should have strated them a month sooner.

Petunias, on the other hand, are being VERY reluctant indoors this year. I thin k the salvia liked the dryer, chunkier seedling mix, but petunias wanted the fine peat powder even if it was soggy.

To put my WS lack of success in perspective: first year WSing, and it took me 2-3 years to get any success INdoors with fussy seeds.

Corey

I am paranoid about the greenhouse effect. My house has South-facing windows, and the low sun angle during the winter turns half the house into an oven ... even in winter.

I guess leaving the top off a jug prevents that. And even the sunniest part of my yard gets less sun than that window does!

I'll try the clear bottles, at least 3" root zones, top cut 360 degrees plus three slits in each half, to interlock and tape a little.

Some kind of "corral" to prevent tipping. blowing, and cat/squirrel depradation.

I'll watch closely the first few clear days, and if necessary change the corral to a shade frame.
Then maybe in mid-spring, make it a "cold frame" intended to provide warmth except for the middle of the day, when it had better not steam any greens before I'm ready to eat them!


I haven't given any thought to WS for crops or annuals - just fussy seeds that need stratification.

But it might have been a good idea: I finally had some snow peas show their face. No true leaves yet. But a lot of squirrel or cat digging - I let the hot pepper flakes wash away!

Corey

Corey, maybe that's why you're having trouble! You're doing the difficult seeds. I do all the easy stuff that otherwise would just get thrown into the garden. Or like Susybell, testing old seeds in which I don't want to invest much time.

If the clear bottles are easier for you to come by, maybe you can put masking tape on the sunny side or parchment paper?

>> Corey, maybe that's why you're having trouble! You're doing the difficult seeds.

I like that theory, better than "dumb Corey killed ANOTHER 200 seeds!"

>> If the clear bottles are easier for you to come by, maybe you can put masking tape on the sunny side or parchment paper?

I'm leaning towards some bigger, external flap that would be movable, and also look more like "gardening" to the neighbors. Maybe very open row covers supported OVER the bottles, for light shade. Prevent them from venting at night, to hold more heat.

But mainly, there has to be some kind of concealing "corral".

I started to like some other people's pics of big arrays of jugs: "Marching Munchkins" or maybe "The Revenge of the Recycling Center".

Armies of little Martians, masquerading as milk jugs, covered with mystic scrawls.

But I'm already messy enough in my yard.

Maybe after I get "all" my raised beds built, made enough soil for all of them, improved all that soil "enoguh" ...
.. and have less time pressure, maybe I'll start tidying up everything every day instead of saying "good eneough" as soon as I can move on to some other task ...
... then I'll take more chances on alienating park management and neighbors - probably by building hoop tunnels and clear plastic lean-tos.

(I already give away cut flowers, partly for PR and to apologizer for the construction mess. If I can give away vegetables as well, that may keep me in their good graces.

Park management, I just don't know. Technically we are forbidden to do ANYTHING in our yards without submitting plans and getting approval. FFFPPPTTT.

Corey

I don't know if this might help, but every time I see this type of storage cube I keep thinking that there has to be a way to assemble them into sort of a greenhouse or framework kind of setup. http://www.amazon.com/Storage-Solutions-15-Pair-Cubby-White/dp/B000MPPU7G/ref=sr_1_20?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1303364181&sr=1-20
There's a set with bigger cubes, but all I could find pictures of was pink or blue and I wouldn't want to use the colored ones.

I think that SK has a really good point here:
"I'll bet that most approaches work, or can at least be adapted to fit the grower's personality. The plants do, after all, have an interest in surviving!"

Ah, that susybell, she is so wise for agreeing with the summerkid.

It's kind of like the whole strawbale gardening thing, which quickly left me in the dust because it got so complicated, with its dripping of teaspoons of this & that onto the bales & its watering & situating, and should you use a plastic teaspoon or invest in the Walmart kind.

I let my bales, which served as a compost corral, rot for a year, plopped some plants into them, walked away and was overrun with the results.

But that's me. (And I don't have park neighbors.)

Yes, I don't want complicated either. I like trying different things, finding ways that work for me and not over-thinking it. Being a little too analytical for my own good as well as trying to resist perfectionistic tendencies I can get myself way too tied up in knots if I let it get too complicated.

Rick, have you considered tracking down the local bonsai club and buying a soil mix or getting a recipe from them or one of the members? Their mixes will drain well. The nice thing is a local mix will have proved successful in our climate..

Corey, we tried both milk jugs and 2 liter bottles last year in our first WS attempt. Found it nearly impossible to get the seedlings out of the 2 liter bottles. Won't try that again.

>> Found it nearly impossible to get the seedlings out of the 2 liter bottles. Won't try that again.

That did occur to me as a possible difficulty, but it seems as if, at worst, I could cut the bottle away with tin snips. I'm wor4rying first about getting some seeds to survive out there, THEN I'll worry about getting them out of pots, bottles or jugs.

>> Has anyone complained or turned you in yet?

No, in fact the two most imposed-upon neighbors would look at the dirt piles or stacks of pavers and scattered tools, and say they appreciated the flowers! Then one of them moved away ... for other reasons. The relators trying to find a buyer for her manufactured home look at me funny, but I tell them that I'm tidying up her gardens some, and they seem the think the tradeoff is good.

>> Has the manager come knocking at your door?

No, but they are whimsical, and I think I'm getting away with things more out of their laziness than anything else. The owner (whom we almost never see) told me that cats are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN and that if I was thinking of letting a cat outdoors, she would SET TRAPS.

That bothered me, but my SO poo-pooed the idea. In fact, the neghborhood is CRAWLING with outdoor cats, you can't be outside for an hour without seeing a couple of different ones.

I just wish they would chase the squirrels away, instead of treating my beds as a cat box.

>> tracking down the local bonsai club and buying a soil mix or getting a recipe from them or one of the members?

That never occured to me, but isn't bonsai all-indoors, and long-term, like years in one pot?

As for buying prepared bonsai mix, I'm not sure they would be as cheap as I am, considering the hours of primping they put into each pot. I'm guessing that "bonsai mix" might be one of the few things even more expensive than "orchid mix".

But looking for a recipie, or rather suggested components for a fast-draining inexpensive recipie is a good idea, i'll check for bonsai "Meetups".

I already know of components used for fast-draining mixes where price is no object: expanded shale and clay products like Turface. Not where to buy them, but I know some names of products.

Considering that I would rather have the components all be cheaper than Perlite, that is a severe constraint. I'm even thinking of ways to get p-eat moss out of the bale while preserving longer fibers, on the theory that it will drain at least a LITTLE faster as long fibers, than as powder. Or at least be eaiser to "open up" with grit, bark chunks and perlite.

Mainly, I think i need to have fewer fines and less powder. I'm sure Al is right that you can't make fine stuff drain _well_ by ading big stuff ... until you've added so MUCH big stuff that the % of fine stuff is low.

I also realized that $10 for 55 pounds is not a GREAT price for grit, since that's only a little over 1 cubic foot. Almost the price of bulk Perlite, but at least grit has irregular shapes and isn't ugly.

I guess I like a challenge ... naaah, I'm just cheap.

Corey

Rick, get thee to a Bonsai meeting! (Puget Sound Bonsai Association) Bonsai are most definitely NOT only indoor plants!! (I went through a Bonsai phase until I realized I enjoyed looking at them a lot more than maintaining them) Very few are truly indoor plants at all. That's one of the reasons so many get killed off-people try to keep them inside. And also why their drainage has to be so good---and why Bonsai gardeners are so very knowledgeable about growing, soil, and drainage.....(like Al, for example...) The bonsai club meetings usually have folks selling things, and also at the workshops they offer. Prices for plants and supplies/tools are often much better at the club functions than you'd see for any kind of bonsai stuff at most nurseries.

The last batch of bonsai soil mix I had was very coarse-small red volcanic rock, some type of bark fines, maybe some sand, if I remember correctly, but it's been gone for a while.

Much easier. You could actually maneuver a spoon in there to scoop them out.

A spatula works.

With the jugs, I take and up-end the whole thing into my hand, over a dishpan, and once the entire ball of roots, seedlings, and dirt is out in the pan, I separate with my fingers the "chunks" I want, or the individual plantlets, or whatever. Then whatever I did not plant out is still intact, and it goes back into the jug with some additional soil to fill the container again, and a splash of water, and back in the "holding tank" area for me to decide what to do with the rest of it.

:)

I love hearing about and seeing the innovation on this thread . . . great minds . . .

>> Puget Sound Bonsai Association
>> very coarse-small red volcanic rock, some type of bark fines, maybe some sand

Drool, drool envy.
My idea of "pefect" would be crushed, screened volcanic rock like pumice or tuff of anything porous and slightly crumbly. Like pelletized rock dust.

I hope they can point me towards sources of supply, and the principles they use to roll thier own.

My own nature is that I don't like pre-packeged mixes (even cheap ones!) or someone else's recipie cloned blindly and without understanding. I wnat to understand WHY something works, and prove it to myself by interpreting or even extending the principles, not following some process by rote.

I realize that people who "just want the result" save a lot of time and effort by doing things exactly the same way someone else found worked for them, in their circumstances.

My inclinations may seem perverse, but for some reason, the process of learning, understanding, and (I suppose) "experimenting" appeals to me as much as or more than a big bed of colorful flowers, and neighbors saying "You grew those FROM SEED?"

It's the Frank Sinatra Syndrome: "I did it my way".

I'm hoping to ease the pain of pulling chunks of soil out of smaller containers in a few ways:

1. Cut the bottle all the way around, no hinge.

2. Like Kyla: invert, dump, pull apart.

3. After I filled a trash bag wioth all ikinds of 20 oz bottles, I stopped collecting any "wasp-waist" bottles. Now, if it doesn't have pretty straight sides, I leave it in the recycle bin.

Straight-wall bottles are harder to find in the 2-liter size than the 20-oz size, but I want the small guys more, anyway.

Maybe, in a few years, if I start starting annuals and crops by mid-spring "WS", I might want some bigger containers. If my tubs-and-pots still aren't working as well as soda-bottle-cloches, and I haven't bult a cold-frame, then I may start asking neighbors if they throw away any gallon or half-gallon jugs.

I already drop off cut flowers to the lady who isn't complaong about looking at a compost heap and hill-of-clay. If I move up to giving away vegetables and potted plants, I should be able to get some jugs in return without having to clean out other people's curds and whey.

Corey

Yes, I am back, but that is all I want to share right now. The cloche has a good show of radishes, but onions and lettuce are more or less void. I reseeded them yesterday, along with putting in some bush beans. Its been a tough spring in MLT.