A question about amending clay soil...

Does anyone here have experience successfully amending clay soil for better drainage and to loosen it up? I've read that simply adding organic compost will almost completely fix the problem. Is this true and if so, how long does it take after amending to have workable soil? How far down should I dig? I'm looking to seed a wildflower bed and the soil is depressing. Also, I did a nutrient test and it is nitrogen and potassium deficient, though phosphorus was abundant. Are there any ferts I could use that are rich in just nit and potass? I know this land used be farmed; could this nutrient imbalance be from crops not being rotated properly by the people who farmed here? Just curious.

I am a total newb to gardening but it's always been a dream of mine to grow and now that I am out of the military and stay at home father with some property, I figure this would be a great time to start.

We don't have clay soil but a friend, just a mile away, has terrible problems with her clay soil and over the last 15 years has added truckloads of mulch from the landfill and yet the soil still does not have the correct tilth to it. I doubt crop rotation would have anything to do with the problem. As far as how deep you should dig - that would depend on the size of the area you want to improve and your stamina. I'd go at least a foot if not more.

Blood meal is organic and a good source of nitrogen.

You can read about potassium here: http://www.improve-your-garden-soil.com/potassium-and-soil-potash-fertilizer.html

Good luck with your wildflower garden and thank you for your service.

I used to live on an area that was all clay, I lived on a lake that was created by them digging out the clay to make bricks. One of the largest brick manufacturers in the US.

http://www.sayre-fisher.com/default.htm

anywoo, My dad created raised beds for his veggies and never had any drainage problems. All our flower gardens we dug down at least 2 feet to get rid of the clay and then filled in with garden soil. The flowers and shrubs did fine.

With the clay soil in our area we typically dig the hole twice as wide and a few inches deeper than the rootball. Then we mix the native soil with pine bark soil conditioner and compost/cow manure at a rate of 30%-40%-30% and backfill a little with that mixture so that the roots have a nice, well-drained place to sit. The top of the rootball should be about 1-2 inches above ground level. Then fill in with the soil mix and lightly press it into place.
Some people balk at the idea of amending just the hole because eventually the roots will hit a clay wall. My response is that at least the plant has a "running start" :)
Also, adding mulch like pine bark fines or shredded hardwood (small pieces that breakdown quickly) to the area will help out long-term because as it decays, it builds the soil. Then the next time you plant you'll have 3" of good stuff before you hit clay. If you repeat the mulching yearly you'll have awesome soil in no time.

I also have clay soil. Not only that, but it's on a scoured-off hillside. Plus shade. Raised beds have been a good answer for me, too.

In addition, by trial and error, I have found quite a few plants that are happy in the plain old clay: hydrangeas (with some amendment in the planting hole), ornamental grasses, four o'clocks, scouring reed, clematis, obedient plant, bridal veil spirea, Japanese cedar, ivy, ferns, coneflower - I'm sure there are many more.

Even if you lose a few at first, keep trying. You'll love it more and more each year.

Thank you all for the advice! It's nice to be a part of a community of such well-informed, thought out, and experienced folks such as yourselves. I am planning on one raised bed as that seems to be a simple and quick solution, however, there are a few areas that this will not be possible, esp in the front where there is a smallish section between the house/porch and an oddly arcing walkway. Besides, I've always loved to dig and I'm almost giddy at the thought of the giant holes I'm going to make :) The worst part (that won't be mitigated with raised beds, anyway) is the cost of all the soil.

So it's decided: one raised bed for herbs and tomatoes, and replace the soil in the flower beds around the house.

Again, thank you all for the ideas!

Two things. #1 around here you can buy soil conditioner in bulk which really helps lessen the cost. #2 if you like digging giant holes I'm about to need a whole mess of those. Plus I'm a great cook and I have a lovely guest bedroom :)

cawilliams, you obviously have great natural talent for gardening!

I agree about the thrill of digging holes! Pick, mattock, shovel, hoe, wheelbarrow away. Repeat.

If the shovel won't go in easily, start with pick or mattock.
Use the pick when there are many stones.
Use the mattock when there are many roots.
When there's enough loose chunks to be easy to shovel up, remove them to your alchemical workyard.
They say that most hard soils are a little softer if slightly moist.

I like to remove the heaviest clay to where it is easier to screen and amend and mix the soil. Then I have to wheelbarrow it back, but I find that easier than bending over to mix or climbing up and down into The Hole and standing on my new soil.

But first and last: drainage!

Since you are digging down, and the soil doesn't drain, it is a mud-bathtub and not a bad until you create drainage.

Since I like to remove the soil as I amend it, it is easy to see the "floor" of impermeable soil that remains. Slope this a little towards one edge or corner: the downhill or lowest corner, which hopefully also is the point closest to whatever take-away slope or ditch you have. (Not your basement!)

Some part of your yard must be lower than the lowest point in your new bed, and some kind of ditch, trench or slope must extend un-interruptedly downhill from your Great Hole to the low point. If you're lucky, some point in your yard may have enoguh actual drainage (or "perk") to conduct water away straight down. That could be your low point.

In my yard, I don't need a wide ditch, just one that has a little slope to it at every point. The width of the mattock blade is enoguh. A hoe width is more than enough.

There's no need to get fancy with levels and strings or laser-surveying. Just keep digging and amending the removed soil until the next heavy rain. One glance will tell you where you need to dig the ditch lower, or possibly where there are low spots you backfill into.

I screen out rocks and the bigger, harder chunks of clay. Then I add lots of organics and medium-coarse sand (and fine sand, though that may not be smart).

I start with one rough, fast pass through industrial shelving, then slide it down 1/2" galvanized hardware cloth and keep what passes through quickly. Sometimes I put the left-over clay-ey gravel through 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth, and rub it hard with the back of a steel rake, to force as much through as I can.

(Fortunately, some of the worst clay stays in the form of little clay-ball-bearings that may pass through the 1/4" screen, but then roll off the pile into a ring around the near-soil. I reject that and leave it with the bigger, harder chunks of pure clay. I may come back to those and salvage them some year.)

I amend what passes my screens with anything organic (compost, aged manure in bags, coffee grounds, peat, coconut coir). As much as I can afford. Bags of (aged) steer manure are actually cheaper here than delivered cubic yards of compost - and bagged "manure" is all compost, not wood shavings. If I could get cheap biosolids, I would jump at the chance.

My compost heap is small and slow, but if you have lots or compost, that should help lots.

I think the organics are what clay needs most, but mine doesn't drain well, or admit air, even after I add 30% or more compost. I don't think even 50% organics would do the trick. And I know that the organics will be digested over a few years, if the soil becomes at all aerated.

And clay + organics isn't friable either. After a few rains it starts to get sticky and gooey again, so I add as much sand as I can afford. Fine sand (play box sand) helped it be more crumbly, but that seems not to help drainage and aeration greatly. Medium-coarse sand ("multi-purpose sand", 1/4 mm to 1 mm) seems better for drainage and aeration, in my guesstimation.

Maybe very coarse sand (1-2 mm) would be even better. But sand is heay and expensive!

Probably "chunky" organics would also help drain and aerate, especially if they don't break down too fast. I have heard good things about confier bark (pine bark mulch), or bigger chunks, like 1/8" inch (1/10" to 3/8", or 2.5mm to 10 mm). Maybe coir chunks or fiber, with the salt washed out. Expensive, kiln-fired expanded pellets of shale, clay or slate. I haven't gone that way yet, but plan to price some pine bark mulch and chips.

Probably wood shavings would help drainage, but I once put too much woody "soil conditioner" into one bed, and it turned into something that would only grow white fungus. So now I chop my twigs into the compost heap and they sit there for a long time.

As I amend the clay, it triples in bulk, maybe even quadruples, from the pore space and the added ingredients. Thus there is always more near-soil to add back into The Holes, than I took out. I do raise the sides by 8", 12" or 16", depending on which pavers I use as walls, and how I stand them on end. So I have beds that are both raised above grade, and below grade (but drained).

And this winter I plan to grow Fall Rye and a mixed cover crop on my hill-of-removed-clay, to add the roots to the mix..

That's my approach. And I keep adding more compost and mulch on top, each year, and mix it in wherever there aren't perennials.

Corey

Wow - that is the most information I ever had about amending clay. This afternoon I have to plant a hardy banana in clay, so it came at the right time.

It's a little bit late in the season to plant subtropicals, even the "hardy" ones. Make sure you mulch it well this winter and you may want to try the Christmas light trick my boss uses if the temperature falls below 30. All you do is wrap the plant (or in your case, the stump) with small-bulb Christmas lights, throw a light blanket/burlap over it and plug them in. It keeps the plant just above freezing, which is all you really need. Just remember that LED lights won't work because they don't give off enough heat.

That is a GREAT idea about the Christmas lights - I hope you are circulating it. Easy enough to accomplish and no doubt will work. Lights, even small lights, are an amazing source of warmth.

At the very least I may be able to get more sleep by worrying less on cold nights! Thank you very much.

PS I had put off planting the banana because hacking into the clay IS such a chore, as you point out. But I think at this point it's better to try to get it into the ground than to drag it into the basement for the third season. Our average first frost date here is not until late in October.

Am I wrong? Would it be better overall to over-winter it again in the basement and then plant it in the spring? It's about 12 feet tall. I wouldn't think it would do well at that size being planted in the spring, either. What do you think?

Thanks for the kind words, Rebecca.

I get my "tropical look" with a bamboo (Fargesia dracocephala 'Rufa') that is said to be hardy down to -5 degrees F. My hardiness zone is said to be "8a" (average minimum temps 10-15 F), but we have seen some "0" years.

I really enjoy pick-mattock-and-shovel and hoe-and-rake work. I'm not an expert of any sort about how to achieve WELL draining soil, but I have experience creating less-poorly-draining soil.

I just got all excited when I found out that I can have free municipally-composted biosolids ... IF I can truck them away myself. Oh well. You know you're a gardener when the thought of biosolids is exciting!

I wish I could take photos with clearer depth perception. I got carried away at one point, thinking that rose bushes and lavatera need DEEP draining soil. Eventually I'll rework that area into two terraces and maybe recover some of the better soil that's currently too deep to see much use.

Corey

We have exciting muck here. We live near a lake which every year TVA draws down to winter level, leaving a lot of new silt much like the Nile river does. So I go down with a child's plastic toboggan and drag free muck up to my raised beds.

Oooo! Free lake muck! Way cool! I'm envious. I've got to find someone with a truck who will trade for plants or garden work.

For a long time, I was much more interested in cultivating the soil than in cultivating plants. Now it's more like 60 / 40. Flowers are more showy than soil, and I do like Bok Choy and snow peas. But it's hard to beat good rich, light soil that you made by hand!


Corey

Rebecca, I'd plant your banana this fall just make sure you do it as soon as possible. As long as you remember to plug in those lights, you should be good to go.

Thanks, plantfreak, for the encouragement. I did go ahead with the planting - and was glad I did because the roots were circling. It may be my imagination but the palm seems a lot happier today, even after all the trauma. It's been my experience that many tropicals are tough!

IS IT NOT EASIEST TO ADD NEW GOOD SOIL TO THE TOP? MIXING CLAY CANBE A REAL PROBLEM. I FIND THAT MANY PLANTS DO VERY WELL ON TOP OF CLAY- NOT IN CLAY, IF THE PLANT LIKES THE CLAY THE ROOTS WILL GROW INTO THE CLAY AND DO VERY WELL. AT A PREVIOUS LOCATION I HAD TO DRILL DRAIN HOLES DOWN 10' FOR TREE WELLS BECAUSE WATER WOULD SOUR, A MOUND OF "GOOD" DIRT ON TOP AND ALL IS WELL.

>> IS IT NOT EASIEST TO ADD NEW GOOD SOIL TO THE TOP?

I do make raised beds on top of my clay, but I still have to fill those beds with something. I can't afford to buy all that soil in bags or by the yard, so I need to make use of the existing clay (which does have a few patches of "mostly clay".

By amending the clay over several years, and mixing it with some bought soil, I hope to wind up with many raised beds and not go broke. The roots from one year plus more added mulch and manure, should keep improving the tilth.

BTW, I do also dig down into the clay somewhat, establish drainage, and lighten it enough that roots and worms have a chance to do my work for me over many years.

Corey

How can you tell if you have good pond or lake muck or bad muck?

"Bad" muck is usually just lacking in oxygen, most often due to poor drainage (or lack of water movement). It typically has a bad smell associated with it. Fortunately once it's stirred up a bit and/or amended with something to help it drain better, the soil becomes oxygenated, the smell goes away and the problem is fixed.

Although I did not read through all of the posts in their entireties, I didn't see any mention of lasagna gardening. This is a quick and easy way of amending any type of soil with organic matter. It's basically composting in place and works very well. I've tried many different ways of amending soil (including doing raised beds, bringing in good soil and making my own "perfect" mix for what I was growing)...lasagna style gardening beat them all, for many reasons. It's easy as can be, no digging required, no turning a compost heap but you still get compost into your soil...and you get all the results of compost, including the wonderful worms. It's often cost effecient because you can use what you have on hand if you have time to work at the layering process (if you don't have time you can buy what you need to make the layers then add kitchen scraps, etc....anything that can go into a compost heap can go into a lasagna bed). In my experience the lasagna bed has also lasted the longest in terms of staying weed free, having the best drainage (and it was in a poor drainage area to begin with!!), and the soil is the richest, most organic out of any of the methods I've tried...and I haven't had to add to this bed as I've had to continue to amend the others. Go figure, easiest works the best. It's really NOT too good to be true.
Second to lasagna gardening I like to have a compost pile (with as many leaves from this time of year as possible!!) and work that into the soil along with some sphagnum peat moss whenever I'm starting a new bed. That is labor intensive no matter how you go about it....at least when you are starting with clay soil. I am soooo against rototillers, but when starting a new bed in that solid, sticky clay you almost have to use one. Remove ALL sod and whatever else is growing there right down to the roots before tilling or you will just be making cuttings for it to grow more prolific (lesson learned here!!). You can opt to use something like RoundUp, but I prefer not to use chemicals whenever possible. Spread out your compost and peat evenly and start tillin'. Work it in, work it in, work it in. This is your one chance to really use a tiller. Once the bed is planted you can continue to add peat and compost but you can't work it in all over without disturbing roots. Every 3-5 years plants usually need to be divided...if you do it right you can pull up a whole bed at a time and re-amend and re-till everything.
This time of year is great for starting a compost pile that you can let sit (covered) until spring. Lots of stuff around to put into it and have it ready just when you'll want it in springtime. Look up some info on that.
One last thing I'd like to say....please be careful about adding sand to clay soil. Clay+sand=bricks. That is not what you want. If clay (or any poorly draining soil) is amended with good organic compost the drainage will improve.
After you add compost, or whatever type of amending you choose to do, retest to see what levels your nutrients are at. Don't assume and start adding this or that. You may very well find that if you add compost (which is food for your plants) you may not need to adjust any nutrients.
Good luck with this...to all who are going to try the compost or lasagna method. Before you know it you will most likely find yourself researching organic gardening...one often leads to the other. There's something so fulfilling about knowing that beautiful garden out there is growing completely natural and 100% free of chemicals (and synthetic fertilizers)!!!!

Thank you, heathrjoy, for the comment about not adding sand to clay. I think you just saved me a "big mistake!"

However, I don't think I fully understand about the lasagna gardening. How does it work? I have a feeling it is something I need to know and can benefit by because I have clay soil here, but also access to lake "muck" plus an old sawmill area where sawdust mountains have been "composting" for decades. How best should I use all this? (I keep a compost pile, too, actually two of them, but am not always good about stirring them.)

Thank you for sharing your expertise.

Oh, WOW!!! The lasagna method would be sooo perfect for you...you have all the right ingredients...and no stirring required!! ;-)
Here are some articles on lasagna gardening that will explain it better than I ever could...
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1999-04-01/Lasagna-Gardening.aspx
http://ourgardengang.tripod.com/lasagna_gardening.htm
The second site is a much quicker and easier read to learn the method.

Lasagna gardening is basically composting in place...and it's all about layering, therefore the name "lasagana," LOL! There's no digging, tilling, weeding...no back breaking work (since I have a bad back it's what first attracted me to it).

For my lasagna bed I started with 3 layers of white paper off of a roll (my ex works at a paper mill). You can use newspaper, cardboard, junk mail...whatever you have on hand and/or collect from family & friends. Make sure you wet this layer before you go on to the next layer. The first layer serves a few purposes (some of which I'm sure I'm forgetting)...but it gets rid of your sod & weeds and keeps them GONE, it also bring along the worms (what is it about paper that does that anyway?), and it's also a great way to line the shape of your bed (cut the paper or cardboard to the contours you want, get as curvy as you feel like!!).
I had some old bags of peat moss, manure and Miracle Gro potting soil that had been left out over winter and had gotten wet, frozen, thawed, etc. You know how that goes...you just don't know what to do with them...are they good to use or not???? So I used them in my layers...
First layer was peat moss, then a layer of grass clippings, then manure, then grass clippings, then Miracle Gro, and while layering these I mixed in some scraps from the kitchen...I just layered whatever I had, no particular order to it, just making sure I sprayed each one down with a hose and buried the scraps well...I finished off with a layer of peat moss.

With the items you have on hand it would be great to do a lasagna garden. Sawdust (small sized chips, bark, etc.) could be used as well, but I would keep it to a minimum simply because it could throw off your nutrient levels depending on the type of wood it is (pine, ash, maple, walnut...who knows??). A layer or two of the stuff from the sawmill would be great, but I just wouldn't make it a "sawdust garden" lol. If the sawmill would be able to let you know what exactly is in the mix that would help greatly. Miracle Gro potting soil (which I refer to a lot only because it's so popular) uses "composted soft wood bark" (that really means composted pine bark).

I think the lake much is very interesting. I'm wondering how it smells? To me, if it doesn't have a bad odor then (organically) it should be ok to use. If it does have a bad odor I'd try to determine what exactly that is coming from. "Hot" manure can be used in a lasagna bed without harming the plants or their roots....so I would say "hot lake muck" would be ok as well. However, make sure that if it smells bad it's not from something that could harm you (just sayin).

One other thing I'd like to say about the lake muck....peat moss is harvested from lake bottoms. However, not all peat mosses are equal. There is Sphagnum peat and there is Reed peat. If you've ever used reed peat you'll HATE it. It will NOT drain no matter what you add to it, or how much you add (lesson learned the hard way here). Before you add too much lake muck to your compost pile or to a lasagna bed you may want to take a sampling of it, allow it to dry and test it for drainage. It may be the best thing you've ever come across or it may turn out to be the bane of your existance!! Reed peat is what most really, really cheap generic potting soils are based on. Potting soils like Miracle Gro are Sphagnum peat based.

For the compost piles you have...whether they have been turned or not...you can add them directly to your lasagna layers. I would just put the more cooked compost on top.

Then add layers of whatever else you have on hand....especially as you are cleaning up this autumn. Tree and plant leaves, dried up (or green) stalks from plants you are cutting back...whatever you come across. It will "cook down" like a compost pile does, so make it deeper (thicker) than you want...24" is what I think is recommended. I did mine about 18" and wish I would have done more.

The other advantage you have is allowing your bed to sit until spring if you like. You can plant it the day you make it if you like, or you can wait till spring. I planted half of my bed and let the other half sit until spring. It somehow creates the perfect "black gold" dirt that all gardeners want. Digging and tilling is NOT required because the worms come in out of seemingly nowhere and they do the digging for you...and it takes care of the drainage problems. Where I did my lasagna bed it had formerly been a swamp every time it rained...I didn't really think it would work, but it did. Now there's a pear tree growing there...and I've actually turned it into a seedling bed because it's the best soil I have in my entire garden...it gives my plants the best start.

That's really all there is to it. Just don't forget to spray down your layers...so they are as wet as a damp sponge.

Oh, and those corn stalks and bale of straw from your Halloween decorations....throw them in after trick or treat is over! Just be careful of things like pumpkin seeds, in my experience FRESH seeds will sprout if they are not buried well. (You can allow plant seeds to dry on the sidewalk or pavement for a week or so before putting in the garden/compost to let them dry out and die in the sun)

Ok....now that I've written you a book....and done my dishes and everything else in the meantime, LOL!!!! I hope I helped!

It sure helped me, i just stumbled on this thread but this is great!

Thank you sherman :)

heathrjoy, thank you so very much for this treasure trove of information. I am deeply grateful to you for taking the time to share your valuable knowledge and experience with me.

You know, for all the years I have been struggling with trial error, this concept - the "lasagna" garden - is new to me. I'm thinking it over and am not sure I fully understand. The aspect I'm uncertain of is how I would adapt it to use with raised beds, most of which have something in the middle - a couple of roses, some peonies, a turkey fig, an ornamental grass clump - that I don't want to disturb. Just lay the layers around them? What about items I'm hoping will re-seed themselves, like cleome and datura? What about seeds that I am planning to plant this fall, like poppies and lupine, to emerge on their own in the spring?

The lake "muck" is part leaf mold and part silt that washes down from the creeks each year. A particularly bountiful supply this year because we had a major flood in May. It usually smells okay (we are WAY out in the woods here and have no neighbors for miles.)

The sawdust is hardwood. It is small particle and at least 30 years old. The thing I've noticed about it is that it apparently discourages whatever creature it is (possum? armadillo?) that roots for grubs around a lot of my plants and leaves roots disturbed. I think the old sawdust has just enough of a whiff of turpentine that the critter doesn't like.

The "lasagna" concept is very appealing. There's bound to be a way to do it here - and I need it as I'm pushing 70.

Bless your heart for sharing - you are a dear!

I think that many people with a bio-organic philosophy would say to layer compost on TOP of a bed and wait for worms to mix it underground.

And people into mulching would say that it can only help to put a layer of aged sawdust on top (at most, add a little fertilizer with nitrogen to baklance the high-carbon sawdust).

Also, as a top-dressing of compost or muck breaks down further into soluble organics and tiny colloidal particles, they will wash down into the soil, if it is sandy enough or drains freely enough. I would just be careful not to let the top layer be too dense. It should be crumbly and well-draining, not an airtight seal.

My approach would be to combine the muck with aged sawdust, mixing it at least a little. Maybe, being aged for 30 years, it has already decomposed enough that it would not suck nitrogen out of the soil. But if you mix them a little, and let them digest each other, you can be sure it is a well-draining blend or high-carbon organics and nitrogen sources.

The lasagna philosophy seems to be that this is an unecessary step. I don't know, I just always do that because I always do that, and my philosophy is that "soil should lots of diffenret things, WELL-MIXED". But lots of "lasagna people" say "this has worked extremely well for me". And it skips the mixing and composting steps, saving time and energy.

At least, if you do "layers" right on top of an existing bed, and one layer turns out to be crusty or too dense, then you can rake it with a cultivator or hoe and chnage from "lasgana philosophy" to "compost in place" philosophy.

I also worry about turning the soil around perennials and bulbs. My heavy clay soil needs ongoing organic amendment, and I recently discovered that almost every bed could have used another 10% or 20% sand. Or 30%. Or just plain less clay.

What I wouldn't give for your silty muck! Perhaps one drawback of composting much would be that some of the valuable parts might leach out of the muck. Probably that is one reason the lasagna approach works well! Combining composting-in-place with top-dress mulching.

I'm thinking that some of my earliest efforts at creating soil from clay need to be given a failing grade and moved out of the beds and over to where I screen the clay and have a small compost heap. Diluting "failed soil" with compost, sand and clay ought to average out too-woody or too-clayey mistakes.

Since I don't have enough yard trimmings for a decent compost heap, my "compost" is usually aged steer manure in bags, around $1 per cubic foot. Some brands were mostly wood chunks, and one brand ahd about 10-15% gravel!

Some day, I will borrow or rent a truck and get some biosolids (wastewater sludge).

Corey

I've started planting perennials too, and I also fear to turn the soil within a foot or two of anything thriving.

A few people have mentioned that they move their perennials the way some people move furniture around - pretty freely. Wow. They must know what has delicate roots and what doesn't. Or maybe they take huge root balls.

I've been thinking that each year I ought to pick one bed that either REALLY needs improved soil, or that has some perennials ready to be divided. Or perennials that are not doing at all well there, and need to be moved or retired.

Then I will move ALL the perennials and builbs out of that bed, and amend it a lot or totally replace the soil in it. Then move some perennials back in, or use it for annuals for a year. Maybe even a cover crop - like leaving a field fallow. That's one way to get some organic matter and nitrogen for compost!

I haven't done this yet, just read about people who do.

Corey

With my soil it is hard enough planting the first time. no moving them for me.

RickCorey: First of all, lasagna gardening should not be compared to or confused with the typical styles of gardening (raised beds or dug in beds). It is a different method entirely...and just because we have always done something a certain way does NOT mean that way is best (I'm sure when gas stoves were first invented someone scoffed at them also). If you doubt lasagna gardening (or the people who talk it up) I simply suggest you try it in a small part of your garden...try it following the directions on the links I've provided (don't set the bed up for failure simply because you doubt the procedure)...and see what type of results you get. It won't cost you much, just some yard waste and a few other things you most likely have on hand since you're already a gardener. It certainly won't cost you any back breaking work. There is a WORLD of difference between reading about something someone else did and actually doing it yourself. I've done raised beds, dug in beds (both by hand and tilled), lasagna beds....and other types. Why not do a small experiment on your own....with all things equal (in their respective gardening styles)....and see what yields the best results. Then consider the amount of work and material (and costs) that went into making those beds. Without first hand experience or extensive research into a subject, giving conflicting info to someone is just going to confuse them.

Hi, RickCorey in Everett - I spent 11 years in Olympia and still miss it (ferns growing wild in the ditches, Mt. Rainier on the horizon, gorgeous rainy cedar lace) but I never did get a decent tomato. One thing I've surely learned gardening: you can't have everything! Only parts, and one at a time.

Is it not possible to do the layering technique in a raised bed AROUND a central plant that would not be disturbed?

And, yes, I'm very lucky to have the lake muck at hand, even at the price of hand-tobogganing it up the slope.

Rebecca: Lasagna gardening....the name itself hasn't been around that long. There are folks who will tell you that it won't work...for a million different reasons. Funny thing is that this is the exact way Mother Nature gardens (minus the sheets of newspaper or cardboard at the bottom to keep the weeds out, lol). If you look at the floor of a forest it is all compost...and it is all in layers. This is about the best soil you could ever find. Lasagna gardening is basically like composting in place, but there is no turning required...just as there is no turning required in the forest. (This is the easiest way for me to describe what I saw happen in my garden) Please be sure to read the articles (at least the shorter one) that I included in the earlier post...because it's much more indepth and I know I'm forgetting thing here, lol!!

Ok, to adapt this for raised beds is easy. I've not done that myself, but I've seen where other folks have done it. I'm guessing by raised beds you mean something that resembles a child's sandbox...but holds soil and plants instead. That's easy...just do the lasagna style layering inside of the box. You can continue to add layers as the soil breaks down, since it is composting in place. This will keep your soil level where you want it. You don't put a bottom in the box...you never should!! Still layer the bottom with your newspaper or cardboard, then just on with the show as normal.
If you don't have a box or enclosure for your raised beds that's ok too. A lasagna bed will be raised when you first complete it. As it breaks down it will begin to "sink/shrink" like a compost pile does. Just keep adding layers to the top to keep it at the level you'd like it to be. It's very easy and is a good way to get rid of all that yard waste, but no work in a compost heap! Personally I didn't want a raised bed where I put my lasagna bed, so I just allowed it to sink/shrink for a while before I added any new layers. (Another note here....remember this was in a horrid drainage area? Some of the area was covered in stones....some pebble sized some fist sized. I didn't move anything, I just covered them with paper and went on my way.)

If these are already established beds (raised or not makes no difference, handle it the same way) you can start a lasagna bed right over what's already there...just like you said...layer around them. Put your paper/cardboard down around the established plants, wet it, then start layering. Easy, easy.

Re-seeding is one thing I love about lasagna beds! Because the soil is always so loose (with no work, ha!!) everything will re-seed for you so very easily. Now, if you don't want that be sure to cover with a mulch. The mulch can be pulled back when you add new layers to the soil. You can also cover certain areas with mulch and leave certain areas bare...this is what I do. I have a problem with birds and squirrels bringing me lots of seeds from everything from wild blackberry jagger bushes to beautiful sunflowers...since I put a tree in this garden. I pull mulch back when my plants are going to seed...around the specific plants that are going to seed. You can also time when you add layers so that it doesn't interfer with seed germination...and that's much easier than it sounds. Most seeds ripen in the fall so I'll wait till spring to put a new layer on...after I see the seeds sprouting. If you have a plant that goes to seed in mid-summer and you want to add a new layer then you can always just not add around that plant. It sounds wayyyy more complicated than it is...once it's in the ground and you are doing it and seeing it happen you'll know what and how to do it.

The lake muck sounds great. I would still check it for drainage just because of the silt. If it does prove to be too heavy I would put it in that compost pile and let it sit for a while...then use it in a year or so. Once it's mixed with other stuff and broke down enough it'll be great. I really do doubt that it would hurt a lasagna bed, but I'd so hate to see that mess it up. If nothing else, I'd keep some in an old garbage can....and after testing the soil in my completed lasagna bed....I'd maybe add a bit of this or that (alfalfa for nitrogen, etc) to it and then use it as a food/fert tea to water those layers!!! Stir it up well, but let it settle before you dip any out of the top to use for watering.

The sawdust still poses a few questions for me. I'm wondering if there is something in the sawdust that gets rid of grubs rather than just deters the critters that are looking for them. However, if there is a whiff of turpentine that MAY be a problem. Be CERTAIN that none of this ever gets used on food plants. I've never gotten to use a lot of hardwood in my beds or compost...and so I'm going to suggest you ask about that on the compost forum. They will know. If you don't have access to that forum let me know and I'll find out for you. They are great folks over there! :)

For this year's reseeding you can always cut the seed pods off of your plants, do your layers and then scatter the seeds over the top layer where you would like them to come up next spring. You could gather your things for your layers and let them sit, whether they compost or not, and do the layers in spring after your seedlings come up (you can plant these beds the day you complete them, with seeds or plants). You could do your layers now, avoiding the areas you want to reseed...then in spring move soil in and around the new seedling (this is what I'd do, even if I ended up doing half of a bed and raking the soil across the rest in the spring). You can set up a lasagna bed in another area and move the soil in the spring (I wouldn't even consider this because it's so labor intensive, but for those who are able it's a great option).

there is a book you can buy about lasagna gardening (and that's the title, lol)...but there is a ton of info on the web about it. Before you spend money I'd see if you could get your questions answered free first. I know that somewhere there's even step by step how to pics...If I can find them I'll post them. It's basicaly like composting, with no rules on what has to be layered next, no turning...only rule is to wet each layer to the dampness of a sponge.

Any other questions just holler or shoot me a d.mail :-)

....also I don't like moving things around either, it's not good for plants, it puts them into shock and stunts them. I like to save moving my plants for when I have to divide them...then I get everything done at once. You'll also find it's much easier to dig plants up from a lasagna garden when you do HAVE to do it, because the soil is so loose.

>> Second to lasagna gardening I like to have a compost pile (with as many leaves from this time of year as possible!!) and work that into the soil along with some sphagnum peat moss whenever I'm starting a new bed. That is labor intensive no matter how you go about it...at least when you are starting with clay soil. I am soooo against rototillers, but when starting a new bed in that solid, sticky clay you almost have to use one.

That's the stage that I'm at. Also, I have very few sources of anything compostable. It is a very small, shady yard and I live in a Seattle suburb, stressing the "urban" part.

If I had up five times as many clippings or other green organic things as I now have, they would all go into my tiny tiny compost heap to make it at least a smallish but working compost heap.

I really really want more finished compost, as my main plan is to convert large amounts of heavy excavated clay into lighter, adequate, mineral-and-organic soil. To some degree, I enjoy composting and cultivating the soil even more than I enjoy cultivating plants. That may be odd, but I enjoy it.

If I had ten or twenty times as much compostable stuff available, I would experiment with a variety of things such as you suggest, like lasagna-layering or composting in place.

I like the idea of straw-bale gardening, not least because after one season of growing in straw bales, I would have SOMETHING to put into my compost heap. But I've priced straw bales in my area. And I only have one small car trunk to transport them in, and gas is expensive.

If I layered all the organic things I could scratch together and haul home in one year onto my beds, I would have a layer less than an inch thick, so that isn't practical for me. I love the idea of putting down a 24" layer! Or an 18" layer. Or 12". If I even had a 6" layer of organic matter on top of my existing beds, I would feel richer than Bill Gates.

But I'm working with at most a few inches of bagged composted steer manure, maybe 1-2" of sand, and occasional splurges like sphagnum peat moss and coconut coir.

It seems to me that the practice of mulching or top-dressing, and letting mulch decompose, approaches the 'lasagna' idea on a small scale, for an existing bed. If you put down two feet of mulch, and never turned it under, would that be true lasagna method?

I prefer to turn organic matter from the thin top humus layer into the deeper, heavier-clay, poorly-draining layers, to amend the soil deeper down, giving me a much deeper root zone. So I guess that is not true lasagna process.

I also need the raised beds everywhere, since I have zero drainage otherwise.

I understand that the lasgana method mimics a forest, which has a humus and duff layer. But the roots of plants in a forest mainly extend below the humus layer into mineral soil, where there are mineral nutrients. Maybe lasagna gardening works best when the soil under the lasgana is loose enoguh for a tough root to penetrate, and has SOME drainage.

My soil is difficult to pentrate with a pick, and has zero drainage and zero aeration.

By the way - I have a question you may be able to answer.

Some descriptions of the lasagna method sound like you can "use almost anything organic". Others I've seen seem to say that "every other layer should be peat moss". I would be very quick to agree that any method that uses 50% peat moss is very likely to wind up with great soil! Isn't that incredibly expensive?

A second question - out of curiosuity - can you still call it soil if it has no mineral content? Isn't it just pure humus if it is all-organic and no mineral? (Considering clay and sand to be minerals, and also silt if it is partly mineral.) I know that if I bought something 100% organic in a bag, it would be called a soiless mix.

I don't doubt that lasagna gardening works if you have the raw materials.
And never shoveling or digging would be easier.

Corey

Hopefully someone else will come along and help. My point here is not to argue nor to defend myself or gardening practices. If anyone has specific questions about lasagna gardening please FEEL FREE to d.mail me.

Happy gardening all ;-)

I understand that it works great for many people, especially if they have access to enough compostable material to take advantage of it.

I would try it, if I had a cubic yard or two of things to layer, especially some green content.

I appreciate your sharing and advocating what you have seen work.

Corey

You know, I think I'm going to try the lasagna method with my largest bed. It just sounds like something worth trying!

Are you making lasagna yet???