Help Mr. Bud!

Bud, I am making my list for my corn seed. The garden will be ready soon. I have to order my seed by 4:30 this afternoon, so I hope you see this. Here is my question: For market gardening, which seed of corn is the best? Open pollinated or Hybird seed? I plan on planting early, middle and late maturing varities. Is this a good idea? Should I buy the most expensive varity or would just a reg. price one do? For instance I can get Honey n' Pearl for 57.45/5lbs,Kandy Korn for 26.60/5# and then I can get Yellow Dent for 3.70/5lbs. Now I no big dummy all the time, my pocket book says the 3.70 per 5#'s but I want a good corn, so do you get what you pay for? Thanks, Lisa

Hi Lisa. Hopefully Bud will show up before 4:30 PM. Just thought I'd tell you what I'm growing this year. I'm growing "Country Gentleman" also known as "Shoepeg Corn". It's OP.

I wouldn't think there'd be a good market for dent corn but I could be wrong. It has happened before. :)

P2

Hey Pete2 thanks! I hope Bud shows up. He is almost in my zone, we are only one zone apart, so I know he is knows the varities that do sell in this area :-) I see on my list of recommended varities for Louisiana, shoepeg is listed. It is a late maturing corn. That seed is not for sale where I am ordering from :-( I can get it at the local feed store, but if I order it wholesale where we buy our supplies, I save about 10 bucks per 5# order. Thanks, Lisa

Lisa
Sorry that I was late getting back to you concerning the sweet corn.
You made two good choices with the G-90 and Merit. Both have been grown around here for years. The G-90 is especially good in that its taste rivals that of many of the Se and Su varieties plus it makes a large ear. The only drawback is tip shuck coverage. Some years ,if conditions are good, the ear will grow out of the shuck allowing insect and bird damage. Merit is not as sweet as G-90 but makes a large ear and has a real corn flavor. Silver Queen is a good choice for a white corn if you have a market for white.
There are lots of varieties that will produce good corn here but I have yet to find one better than G-90. The supersweets do not have good cold soil emergence and we have to plant early or else the corn earworm is almost impossible to control.
I have trialed a lot of sweet corn over the last 14 years and I always go back to the old " tried and true".

It is also time to plant snap beans . Try Blue Lake 274,
Kentucky Wonder Bush and Louisiana Purple Pod Pole Beans and also RomaII Italian . Tres Bon!
Bud

Great info. Bud, thanks. I will also plant snap beans. I know I should plant the bush type, but I sure do like the pole type better. I will plant the pole type I'm sure!
Pete2: What I learned today about corn that they didn't teach me in class(LOL) I want to pass on to you! OK:Hybird corn is always sweeter than open pollinated corn. And that my friend is my nugget of wisdom to pass on!!LOL! This is so much fun! Lisa

I'm not growing any corn to sell this year. The farmer's market will be inundated with "Silver Queen" and so I'm going to concentrate on other crops to sell. I just love the taste of shoepeg corn and so I'm growing some just for me and my family. Have you ever tried any? It's really quite good!!! :)

Lisa,

There's a good reason why the hybrids are better tasting sweet corns than the OP varieties.

Historically, sweet corn is a rather new thing. Although there were some sweet corns around before the 19th century, corn, generally speaking, was used for three purposes: as stock feed, as a step in a further process (i.e., grits, cornmeal, hominy etc.), or to be eaten green. Obviously, there was no need for sweet corn for these functions.

As the taste for sweet corn grew, so, too, did varieties emerge. Hybridization was the best way to concentrate the genetic coding for "sweet."

Honestly, I've grown hybrids for many years and I'm really not all that impressed with their disease resistance. I just don't see how the diseases could get any worse down here in the South than they already are. It seems as though I'm constantly warding off some kind of attack from something. This year I'm going to really see how bad or how good hybrids really are. I'm growing all OP tomato seeds except for 2 hybrids. The hybrids are the Santa grape tomato and Sungold. Sorry Brook. I just can't give up all hybrids "cold turkey". I'll see firsthand if the hybrid is in fact better for the South. As far as my other crops go, I've always used mostly OP seed anyhow so there's nothing much to test. So, why am I doing this little test? Because I want to find out for myself and actually see it for myself. Whatever happens, I won't reget this because it will make me a better gardener.

Good grief! Look at the time! Have I really been online this long??? Well, there are walls to paint upstairs. (sigh) TTYL :)

Pete:

Why are you apologizing to me? Everybody makes their own decisions as to what they will or will not grow.

That aside, what you describe isn't much of a test. To be fair, you should be growing an equal number of hybrids and OPs, each of which is specific to your locale. And you should do it over several years, to assure that results aren't skewed by external conditions.

You also have to consider the criteria you are looking for. If disease resistance is the important one, than you should pick varieities (hybrid and OP) that are known for disease resistance.

I don't grow much corn, so shouldn't be thought of as an authority. But through the years I've grown both hybrids (this was before my current philosophy) and heirlooms. Frankly, in terms of things like pest resistence, I've never noticed a difference. Corn borers, especially, are a particular bug-a-boo for me.

Saved from painting by the telephone men that are working inside and outside running new phone lines!!! I really didn't want to paint anyway. Have you ever had one of those days when it's sooooo gloomy outside that you just have the blahs? It's one of those days.(sigh)

I really don't know why I'm apologizing or maybe I do, Brook. I guess it's because I really hate the road we're heading down with seed technology and I know that I really shouldn't buy or grow some of those [profanity removed] seeds and I feel guilty about it. It's not so much the fact that there are hybrids. The technology didn't stop with hybrids. It has continued on in a direction that I never dreamed possible even in my wildest imagination. Furthermore, it won't stop and I know this. There will be no end to "improving" crops. We'll "improve" them so much that there will be no OP seed left and then we'll really be up the creek without a paddle because then not only will "they" own all the seeds...they'll own our souls, as well.

I haven't even touched on resistant strains of bacteria caused by the constant bombardment of antibiotics we'll ingest. Actually, we're already ingesting them but we'll ingest more if they have their way. We're only one antibiotic away from a plague as it is. Those stupid [profanity removed] fools and their technology will be the end of us all. Somebody pass me a drink!

Sorry if I brought you all down. I've been thinking about all of this for quite a while now and twice a week I hear more of the same old BS in MG class. You know that glowing potato post I made? Well, I mentioned that to a visiting instructor the other day and he thought it was about the best thing since sliced bread!!! He even had a friend that had done some simliar research. I thought the whole [profanity removed] thing was sick!!! Call me old fashioned but I have a problem with joining 2 different species for a "better, improved" product. Can I get a witness?

I've convinced myself. From this day forward (2/28/2001) I will never buy a hybrid seed again. I just can't in good conscience do it. I won't subsidize or fuel their insanity and this is the only way I personally have to stand up to them.

Rather that edit my previous post just let me say that I'm not against hybrids. I'm against the seed company's reckless development of technology that I personally think is dangerous. In the hope that OP seed will remain available, I'll be buying that only.

Pete,

It isn't all gloom and doom.

For the sake of this discussion, agriculture can be divided into three categories:

Home gardeners.
Market Growers.
Factory Farmers.

Market growers can be subdivided further. On one hand are the larger growers, who follow in the footsteps of the factory-farm, agri-business mold. But on the other hand are the smaller growers involved in all sorts of alternative agriculture---including organics, CBAs, sustainable agriculture of all kinds, co-ops, etc.

Heirlooms will always be available to the home gardener, thanks to aggressive seed trading, and organizations like SSE. And, because gardeners demand them, from the mainstream seed suppliers tool.

The real happy news is with the market growers; caring farmers who have opted out of the chemical/hybrid/GMO scene. Their ranks are growing everyday. And they have help through groups like GSHSS.

Understand, too, that right from the start the hybrid thing was a shuck. Virtually every claim made for hybrids (which the GMO claims, BTW, merely echo) is a myth. Hybrids exist for two reasons: One, to meet the needs of the now-global food distribution system; and two, to keep money flowing into the coffers of the chemical/seed producers. The same lies we here about GMOs were first spoken about hybrids. Among them:

-Hybrids have better pest and disease resistence. False!
-Hybrids produce greater yields. False!
-Hybrids require less fertilizer, pesticides, and herbicides. Patently false!

Need I go on.

But the accelerated growth of alternative agriculture is a bright note in all of this. There are several ways we, as individuals, _can_ assure that the madness doesn't effect us. Or at least minimize the effects.

When you buy at a farmer's market, ask about their growing methods. If you don't like the answers, don't just walk away. Explain why you are not buying their produce.

Check if there are any CBA or CSA farms in your area, and patronize them.

Form growing co-ops among your friends. Few of us have the space to grow even a majority of our produce needs. But if, say, five families get together, one of them could be the designated cabbage grower; another the designated carrot grower, etc. etc. Each family produces all the needs of one or two veggie types for all five.

Look around and you see more and more of these creative food production and distribution methods.

I'm really not as optimistic as you are, Brook. I'm sure these big companies will continue with their gene experimentations. :(

You mentioned the move to organics. Yes, I've noticed that. In reference to the factory farmer, at this point in time I just don't see how they could revert back to organic farming as in the "old days". It would be too labor intensive. Even the large market gardener would have a tough time changing over. In many cases it's a mom and pop operation and they're operating on a small budget. And remember, good soil is the key to organic farming. Without it you can just forget it. It would take YEARS to build up soil that had been depleted of the "good stuff". And let's not forget another thing...the quest for perfection. That's right. Consumers want the perfect shiny apple and the perfect everything else. I just can't see the mindset changing. In all honesty, if it meant feeding my family with non-organic farming or not feeding them with organic farming you can guess what I'd choose. I'd choose to feed my family.

As far as hybrids and their benefits go. I honesty don't know the answer as far as disease resistance or yield. I can only comment on what I see in my own comparably small garden first hand. I don't see a big difference. Some years are better than others. But, if I were a farmer trying to make a living and believed that hybrids would be the better choice that's what I'd grow. I'm being honest here. Having never walked a mile and their shoes, I don't know their life. I would imagine it's a very difficult one. But really I don't have a thing against hybrids. My point in just buying OP seed is to keep the old "supply and demand" ball rolling. I want OP seed to remain available. I want to have the option to save my own seeds whether I do or not. I don't want the big companies controlling all the seeds and that's one thing I fear. I also fear something like the "terminator seed" infecting and thus forever changing "non-terminator" crops. We've already seen that happen. Imagine it happening on a very large scale and what do you have? That's right. A total control of seeds. I know this may seem far fetched to some but I really don't think it is. It could conceivably happen in a matter of years. Am I an enviromentalist wacko? Only about this one subject. The ramifications are almost endless. Polital, environmental, and health issues come immediately to mind. Oh well. I don't see near the outrage expressed about GMO's in the USA as I do in Europe. And why not? I'll tell you why. People are naive. Most folks believe the govt exist only to take care of them and of course they would never subject them to something not safe. Oh really? I could rattle off a list of Rx's right now that have been taken off the market due to deaths. They somehow had a rush job through for approval.

Pete,

I am _NOT_ optimistic. All I said was that there are some bright spots on an otherwise dark canvas. The giant agri-combines will continue down the path to destruction until somebody stops them. And there is no sign of that happening.

Understand that the evil is not hybrid v. heirloom; organic v. other means. The depate is mono-culture v. bio-diversity and sustainable agriculture.

By it's very nature, monoculture must use massive infusions of herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers, etc. It totally degrades the soil, with the result that without these chemicals nothing of any worth will grow. The topsoil has been completely destroyed. So it isn't a matter of converting it to organic methods. You cannot reverse the ravages of 50+ years overnight.

On the other hand, there are bio-diverse farms in Africa that have been in continuous use for thousands of years. Organics are an automatic part of that, along with crop rotation and other sustainable methods.

You are right. If one way is profitable, and the other not, farmers will opt for the profitable way. As more and more small operations turn to alternative agriculture, and show that it _is_ profitable, other, larger operations will follow.

Can we get rid of the monocultural factory farms? Probably not. But if we can reach the point where we stop exporting that danger, I'll consider it a victory.

Me too. :)

I was just catching up on some reading about cotton and the unavailibility of non GE seeds even though farmers want them. Apparently, the non GE cotton out produces the GE cotton.

Excerpt from http://www.CropChoice.com
"Delta and Pine Land seeds account for 84 percent of the cotton varieties, and Stoneville controls the other 16 percent, says Jim Worstell, Ph.D., quoting from U.S. Department of Agriculture figures. Of that seed, more than 99 percent is genetically modified.

"In some regions, no non-GMO seed is offered for sale," he says. "Farmers in our region recognize the poorer seed quality and even lower yields of GMO varieties, but they have been convinced by Monsanto advertising that they have to have the GMO genes."

I guess that's seed control huh?

You got it.

Ironically, Monsanto et als continue pushing this, even though it cost Monsanto millions of dollars in settlements when GEed cotton not only didn't do the job, it was resonsible for great losses due to weevil infestations that it was supposed to stop.

There are other straws in the wind. A large organic cooperative in Northern Kentucky (if I recall, correctly, they have something like 22 farmers as members) announced last year that they will only be growing OP varieites.

Understand, too, that I am not a particular proponent of organic growing. I've nothing against it, either. Like everything else, I'm a believer that you pays your money and makes your own choices.

Except when those choices impinge on my ability to survive. And that's the danger of GMOs. They are moving us inexorably towards a Malthusian catastrophe that will effect the global population. And that scares me.

I had to look that up. Quite an interesting read. In case anyone else is unfamiliar with this. Thomas Robert Malthus wrote “An Essay on the Principle of Population”. He argued that the world population would increase faster than the food supply with terrible consequences.

Malthus was (and still is) held in disrepute for several reasons. First, the world is physically much larger than was known at the time, thus providing more liebensraum. And he couldn't know the effects of the industrial revolution and factory farming, which, for a time, staves off the catasrophe.

Basically, the premise is that population expands until the available resources can no longer support it. Then there is a massive die-off, resulting in _more_ people, better able to cope. Yeah, I know that sounds backwards, but it's true.

Population dynamic studies done with other species have proven Malthus correct. But somehow, nobody want's to believe that the principle holds true for people, too.

But old Tom, he gets the last laugh every time.

Brook
The title of this forum is Market Growers and not Agri-Philosopy According To Brook.
Maybe Dave will consider another forum for you and your
audience.
This is not the place.
Bud

Excuse me, Bud,

If you go over this thread you'll find that all I was doing was responding. I didn't initiate it, and it isn't agri-philsophy according to Brook.

Besides which, if you think these issues are not of crucial importance to market growers, maybe you need to take your head out of the sand.

Brook
No sand on this old head . I know what is going on and am very much aware of what is of crucial importance to market growers and farmers in general.
I am capable of making decisions that affect the future of my business and the health and well being of my customers.
I plant hybrid seeds, genetically modified seeds, open
pollinated seeds including many heirlooms and each variety was chosen because it was best suited for our operation and not because of parentage .
Farmers are well qualified to make decisions for farmers .
Rest assured that we will survive and continue to provide the safest and most abundant food supply in the world.
Bud Benton
Mon Jardin Farms
Batchelor, La.
President of Louisiana Vegetable Growers Association
Member Board of Directors of Baton Rouge Economic and
Agricultural Development Alliance

I'm sorry, Bud. I'm afraid this is all my fault and not Brook's. I like to apologize to you for having a discussion of this sort in the wrong forum. But, I just can't apologize for having an opinion that may differ from yours on the issues above. I hope we can agree to have differing opinions on issues without getting upset with one another. I know that I can. After all, this world would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same opinion right?

Do you get your beans put in yet? I really should be planting today myself but I think it's going to rain.

This message was edited Saturday, Feb 24th 9:43 AM

I really need a spell check. ;)

The thread is interesting, but probably belongs in the GardenTalk forum. I'm moving it over there.

Dave

I am sorry Dave. I posted this originally on Market Garden forum because I was pushed for time in an answer from Bud. I thought maybe if I posted it there he would see it before my time dead line. I never meant for this thread to take the route it took. It was just an honest question that I was in a hurry for an answer. This is the second time one of my threads have "gone bad." I am a peaceful person, don't like conflict at all. (the other thread was a cute thread on why it is good to be a man)It makes me feel rotten when I see that I've started something. I hope we can just end this thread...please...I have my corn seed and it is waiting to be in the ground. Thanks, Lisa

Lisa, you didn't start anything. Honest! As discussions often do they get off the subject and I got off the subject. That's no big deal...really! Please don't worry about any of this. I'm sure not and I'm sure we're all still friends. :)

So, what corn seed did you decide on and when will you be planting it? I'll be planting mine around the first part of March if all goes well. I'll be planting my beans as soon as the weather clears up. I really need to go take a picture of my broccoli in the greenhouse for all of you. It's in those "earthboxes" I was telling you about. I'll try and do that when the weather clears. :)

Terri/Pete2

I second Pete2's comment.

Pete2, Lisa, etal
No apologies are necessary from anyone. I tend to take the defensive on such issues. Sometimes I get a bit harsh when someone is bashing pretty hard .
Back to farming....
1st potatoes are coming up , 2nd batch planted Thur.
Snap beans planted, squash seeded and transplanted.
Sunflowers planted, Bachelor Buttons in the ground,
Zinnias,Marigolds, Celosia, Gomphrena ready for transplanting after this weather front moves through.
Most of the first glads are up and corms for the next planting came in yesterday.
Along with the warm weather came the bugs. I had to spray
yesterday for spotted cucumber beetles and green aphids.
We had a real good market today despite threatening weather and Mardi Gras parades.
Bon Jour et Laissez le Bon Temps Roullier
Bud

Oh no! I must have done something wrong with my potatoes!!! Mine aren't up yet. When did you plant your first crop of them, Bud?

Squash already? Gosh, it is about that time isn't it? I really need to get busy!!! That's the thing about the South, we have to plant early to get a jump on all the bugs. What are your temps like right now? All in all it's about 70 degrees or so at my house but VERY windy. BTW, my broccoli is gorgeous!!! Remember it's in those earthboxes in the greenhouse. There's not a single bug bite on any of them. Of course, I do have screens in my greenhouse and I'm sure that's the reason for that! I'll post some pictures of them tomorrow. I passed up planting beans today for an oyster roast. It wasn't a hard choice to make! LOL

Pete2
My first potatoes were planted on 2-5.
I only cover the seed pieces with about 2 inches of dirt.
If you cover them too deep the seed is insulated from the heating of the sun and take a long time to sprout.
We have had relatively mild temperatures lately (75 today)
and everything is germinating, sprouting or budding out,
including several flavors of insects.
So far today ,we have missed the worst of the winds and rain, and for that we are thankful.
Just hope that it doesn't get too severe for our neighbors to the North.
We got a couple of showers so I didn't have to water the squash transplants , although the wind did beat them up a little.
Good gardening
Bud

Hey Bud, no rain here yet either, just lots of wind today. I am late getting my taters in the ground. I was supposed to plant them by the 15th. I am hoping for zero rain tonight. I really need those tater planted. I have the ground finally tilled the way I want it to look, new ground, new garden. Now I need to borrow my neighbors row builder to get the rows made, then I am good to go. Lisa

Whew! I feel better now, Bud. I didn't realize that you had planted them the first part of the month. I planted my potatoes on the 14th and I planted them 3 inches deep so I guess I'm good to go! :)

Tonight I planted all of my various squashes and some cantaloupe for transplanting later to the garden. Tomorrow, barring any more oyster roasts ;), I'll get my beans in the ground and my sugar snaps. I'm really late on the sugar snaps but it couldn't be helped unfortunately.

Lisa, sounds like you're having a mighty good time on your tractor! I sure wish I had one. One day maybe. :)