A BIG HEARTFELT APOLOGY TO EMMA GRACE

Emma Grace is one of the kindest, sweetest, sharing people you could ever know. I met her last year at the Dave's Garden RU and enjoyed becoming one of her gardening buddies.

From some gardener, or maybe from a purchase I obtained a mix of Gray Morning Mist & George Strait Morning Glory seeds. I grew them out and loved both!! I placed these seed up for sale on ebay. As I had a real good response from ebayers wanting just the George Strait M.G. seed, but not the mix. I didn't know which was George or which was G.M.M., so a few months ago I was doing an internet search for just the George Strait seed to purchase and grow, then resale the seed.

Emma Grace emailed me to say she was sending me as a gift George Strait and others. In an email I asked who named this M.G. George Strait.....it was Emma of course!

Today on ebay I decided to purchase a few more morning glory seed. I ran across Emma's bid "George Strait M.G." seed. I felt so ashamed because I still had a "Buy it now" for my G.M.M. & G.S. morning glory seed mix. It just never entered my mind, until I seen her bid to remove my bid. Which I did at once!

Emma, I'm so sorry and feel so bad! Please over-look me. Everyone that knows me can tell you I'm a very honest person.You have my promise I'll never sell another George Strait Morning Glory seed as long as I live!

I sold several pks. of the G.M.M. & G.S. mix.....will gladly paypal you those funds.

Canna girl, it is great to hear someone come clean. lol I just wish the internet market place was as honest as you. There are a lot of people selling seeds, using other peoples pictures, uncertain IDs,
seeds for drugs, you name it.

Something I really appreciate about our Emma, is that she doesn't just pick out the very best flower of the season, as in Japan,; but she shows plenty of pictures, so you get a truer Idea of what it is going to look like.

Last year she posted many many pictures, which I know personally, is a lot of work, just doing it.
For the big number of New people we see each year, that never heard of Japanese Morning Glories before, THIS IS THE FORUM is the international showcase for morning glories , especially because of the jmgs .

The people here that post pictures are the substance of this forum. They always make it worth tuning in to see whats new today.

I don't know where she went, I guess she is real busy these days. Frank

I agree with Frank. I had never even heard of JMGs until I came here.. to DG, and found them and the wonderful people here, and you are one of those special people.

What are the rules for selling seeds when a cultivar is aquired or created by someone else? I know it is not acceptable to sell a seed packet your received from someone in a trade or as a gift. But ...

If they are seeds that YOU collected from your own vines, do they have to be grown out for so many generations before any seeds can be sold? Or sold under a different name? Or is there a number of years that must pass?

I am really curious to know the answer to this dilemma, as I am sure this issue comes up quite a bit.

I was under the impression that if you grew the seeds you purchased or traded for, and collected the seeds from those vines yourself, you could do what you wish with those seeds.

People can protect copyrighted names but they can`t control the seeds buyers collect from the plants they grow.

Plants grown from cuttings can be protected because the DNA can be matched. If someone is propagating cuttings of a registered cultivar and is selling them without permission they can be ordered to pay the company that created the cutivar compensation for loss of sales.

If someone gathered seeds from the plant and started their own cutivar from a seedling then that is different. Their plant will have a different DNA profile from the parent plant and it can be named a available name and launched onto the market. There would not be worries of getting in trouble in court because the DNA tests would prove the plant you were selling wasn`t the same as the registered plant.

It is indeed okay to sell seeds gathered from one`s own vines. People can name the seeds a available name or simply list by variety characteristics like Small Flower purple or Blue Blizzard small flower long vine or Large Flower Speckled purple or dream up your own name like (Your own name) followed by Speckled Wonder or whatever and it is perfectly fine to do that. Just make sure the name is available and any famous person you want to use their name and images to promote your plant gives permission. Then it is perfectly ok.

Many people continue to use the same name as the original package they bought from Japan like Heian No Izume and that should be okay too. imho

Agreed. And confusion also occurs when different Romaji words are used for the same JMG. It's just a function of individual Japanese gardeners interpretation of the qualities of the identical CV.

Or did you just say this Karen?

Read it again. :)

Hi Dollie,
Thank you so very much for such WONDERFUL compliments. I am truly touched.

And thank you too Frank.

Dollie, as I wrote you via email a few days ago about this situation and assurred you that it was perfectly ok to sell seeds that you received from me. I think it is very big of you to acknowledge publically an apology that is really not needed, but you didn't know that and I appreciate very much your sincerity and your honesty.

So, re-list your seeds. It is perfectly ok.
Also, as I mentioned to you I never have a problem with anyone selling my seeds, but I do when they re-name them. This only causes confusion.

Thanks again Dollie . . .
I will look forward to meeting you again at Dave's Roundup.

Emma

can I whine?" I wanna go to Daves Round up!" have fun all of you, Dollie.. you are a peach! Emma, I wish I could meet you, as well as the rest of you!

I went on ebay looking for JMGs without knowing it I was buying from emma
a few days after my purchase I met her here on DG she is amazing when I received my package I got everything I ordered plus free gift included in with my order,

I sent a big thank you, and I will never sell any MG or anykind on ebay my JMGs since they are so hard to get in canada I think I want to keep them for me only hahahhaha something in my garden that I have to show off to other gardeners in the area that I can brag about

mona

mona, I am with you.. just wanna have the bestest on the block!

Thanks everyone for your wonderful comments about me. It made me feel better about myself, after feeling like I had stole George Strait :) from Emma Grace.

Karen, thank you for all your information! Looking forward to seeing you at the RU in Baton Rouge.

Emma Grace, lol I'll pass on posting that bid again. Thank you, but it wouldn't be right.....George is yours....I think I'll try for a Brad Pitt ;)

Hi Debra! You have an invitation to come to our Baton Rouge RU! We've emailed so much I feel like I know you....would love to meet you in person.

Now, I have a question. Notice the above photo I posted....it looks slightly different from George Strait or Gray Morning Mist. When the vines I grew out produced flowers, then seeds, couldn't I rename these M.G.'s as they would have a different genetic makeup? Or am I missing something? For instance with brugmansia, daylilies, tropical hibiscus and many other plants your plant produces seed, you grow that seed out, you have the right to name. I'm just getting into M.G. growing so any advice on naming these plants would be helpful.

Mona & Debra, I have a small collection of JMG seedlings in my GH. If they do well for me I'll share my seed with you both. Just remind me around mid-summer.

And what color of bloom might you choose for a Brad Pitt??? Inquiring minds want to know. LOL!

And yes! If you get a vine and bloom that appears to have a different genetic makeup, you can name it if there isn't one already just like it! :-) Unlike Brugs, Daylilies, etc. - there is NO Morning Glory Society. So how official any names are ... is anyone's guess. Which explains all the confusion on ebay and other sites concerning cultivar names.

Not to throw a rock into the pond . . . but even if a name is "taken", it can still be used by someone else naming a bloom - unless that name has been patented.

I do agree, though, that Emma is one of the best traders/ebay sellers out there! Always get extras from her! Thanks to her extras, I am exposed to plants I haven't even heard of!

This message was edited Mar 16, 2009 11:51 PM

Becky, A deep, misty-baby blue ;)

Lol, So who is going to start up a Morning Glory Society? I'll be the first to sign up.

I agree too...Emma always sends extras....even in trades or give aways on DG.

when is the round up? my youngest daughter has been bugging me for a trip to la and I have a friend there I would love to see..

Debra, Sounds great! I hope the date will be good for you to make the trip.The RU will be at Jeri's May 16th. LMK and I'll bring you some JMG's to the RU.
The RU is posted on Midsouth for more information.

I truely appreciated Emma's comment, giving permission to use the names. This is so important for the future. Breeders and growers most of the time are colleagues, and have to have a meeting of the minds if someone beside the orriginator is to use the name.

The consequences of using a different name to keep from offending, because no permission was asked, is this. A few years from now, people will be buying all the names George Straight was changed to, thinking they are getting something a little different, so they want it just the same.
When they give seeds to a daughter-in-law, you can bet she will be here with her pictures asking for an ID. And the confusion spreads like this and gets worse. If you give or sell seeds, of a newer variety, to anyone, you should always use the name the original breeder gave it and give them credit for it at the same time. The fewer names "George Straight" ends up getting, the less time will be wasted in the future, here on this forum, with people who just didn't get around to giving Emma Credit.

Just like there are many sad stories about probate problelms, there are problems from time to time among breeders and growers. A single packet of seeds is inconsequential, but if you are in the nursery business, you had better iron out a breeder grower agreement before you put one of my introductions into production. You are stealing some one elses sweat and toil in many ways if youdon't. If you sell me seeds under a name you made up, you are stealing my sweat, toil and money, because I have already grown it and have hundreds of seeds from that grow out.
I just thought this needed saying. Frank

That very mess is going on right now with Ipomoea purpurea, var. "Aomurasakiyouhuntansibori", frequently called sibori. Sidbori means tydye in Japanese and various corruptions of the name are available, and you can spend a lot of money on all the names, though the seeds will grow the same
variety of purpurea. This variety has been around for 160 years that we know of. It probably has the record for the most corruptions of it's name. Why all those names for the same thing? Ethics.
The police and the FBI enforce the law, but ethics are voluntary

Debra . . .

Thank you. I too would like to meet you. I think it would be great fun for all of the MG Enthusiasts to have a Daves Roundup, but I know that would be impossible because of the great distances between us all. I had the opportunity to meet many DGers at Daves RU last year and it was great!


scicciarella and Syrumani. . .
Thank you both so much for the kind words.
Even though I do sell my seeds, I 'still' love sharing them as well. How could any good gardener not!
I laugh to think back many years ago when my son and DIL were married. He told Jennifer "Don't EVER tell my mom you like something" - " She will give it to you!"


Becky and Dollie, I just happened to have a Deep Misty Baby-Blue MG that needs a name . . . lol - Hmmmm 'Brad Pitt' would be nice, but my next all-time favorite would have to be 'Alan Jackson', but then, I have LOTS of MGs that need names. Plus I have hundreds of hand-pollinated crosses that I haven't even grown out yet.


Dollie . . .
Re your question:
“Now, I have a question. Notice the above photo I posted...it looks slightly different from George Strait or Gray Morning Mist. When the vines I grew out produced flowers, then seeds, couldn't I rename these M.G.'s as they would have a different genetic makeup? Or am I missing something? For instance with brugmansia, daylilies, tropical hibiscus and many other plants your plant produces seed, you grow that seed out, you have the right to name. I'm just getting into M.G. growing so any advice on naming these plants would be helpful.”

Your above photo posted is fuzzy, but to me it looks like ‘Gray Morning Mist’. I would need to see more photos of it. [‘George Strait’ is a Blizzard with Blue/Plum/Purple color tones and ‘Gray Morning Mist’ is a Solid Steel Gray color with slight White Picotee Edge and Pink halo at the throat]. Actually, I would find it amazing if ‘Gray Morning Mist’ ever grew to be anything but ‘Gray Morning Mist’ because of its strong genes. So, in this instance, it will be best to not confuse the issue by giving ‘Gray Morning Mist’ a new name. The more you grow out your Morning Glories and look at what others have grown, the easier it will be for you to determine if you have something worthy of a new name. You can also post photos to the MG Forum as well for an ID since many times a hidden gene will bounce out and WA-LA! - A Different Morning Glory that does already exist. So, you are going to have bunches of chances to get some new creations that do need to have a new name tagged to it.


Debra . . .
Or, if you look on Google map from Derby KS to Jacksonville TX [Actually look for Tyler].
Jacksonville is straight south of Tyler.
http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GPTB_enUS290US290&q=Derby+Kansas+Map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=un-_ScrZPILKMJ3P-aAN&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=image

It is a path straight south from you to the East-Texas Roundup - also May 16th.
Here is one of the Links on ET RU on Texas Gardening Forum
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/945176/

Here is Link to some of Daves other Roundups
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/roundup/all/


Frank . . .
Thank you for your great explanation. I totally agree, and I couldn’t have said it any better.

Emma

the reason for no society is that with daylilies they cut from root stock and the blooms are true to the mother plant with morning glories even from one gereration to the next you
will always find stight differences and it is not possible to control that 100 per cent also even if you only grow one kind and keep the seeds I have noticed that after a few years it changes back to what the wild specie is and some of the carachteristics are no longer there

mona

ps I hope this makes sense

does to me

if you like brad so much call the new baby after what he treasures the most jollie blue is a great name

hey I like that name too.. great Idea! ;D

so for the first time I am going to try crossing real MG to moonflowers to see what I get
I started 20 moonflowers and some JMG and some regular GM and I want to see what will happen I am going to grow some from seed starting in the fall as soon as the seeds are ready if I get anything nice I will share the seeds with you all

when I went to floriday last spring I purchased the cuttest white MGs with a scalapini edge will try to cross that one and see if I can get a big flower with the same edge which would look great

I have been gowing MG for about 20 years but have never tried the japanese ones first year for them and I have crossed many flowers but never MGs so this is going to be a great summer of experiments

mona

Mona - Good luck crossing species of MGs. I have tried to cross I. nil with I. purpurea and they are not really compatible. On rare occassions, some MGs will cross subgenus, but very rarely. I have not found anything that will cross with a Moonflower. I hope you find another subgenus that does! Happy hand-pollinating!

This message was edited Mar 18, 2009 7:43 AM

I find that with lots of the JMG that I got the seeds look very much like moonflower seeds just a little smaller
the japanese have been clossing mg for many generations and the chocolate have the same exact seed as the moonflower so I am going to try it just to see what happens

Chocolate has the same type of seeds as a Moonflower vine? Really? What do the chocolate blooms/vines look like? I'd really like to know. Do you happen to have a photo?

here is a pick of the flower bought the seeds and I examined them closely and couldnt tell the difference from moonflowers

Mona - What color were the seeds? Interesting...

Is this the Moonflower that you are talking about?

oohhs loves that picture Becky.. can't wait until my pink and whites get blooming.. Question:?
If I planted two different JMGS in the same pot to twine for colour mix, will they cross naturally? I have bees in the summer time here..

It is very possible. Unless they are two different species of MGs such as I. nil and I. purpurea. Different species aren't as likely to cross as they are not easily compatible.

okay... so most JMGs are I.Nils? or do I have it backwards? LOL

Yes! Most of the big bloom vines are I. nils. But there are a lot of I. purpureas from Japan, too. I know that doesn't answer your question, does it? Go to plantfiles and type in Morning Glory and see all the pages that comes up. If you look at each one, you can see which ones are I. nil and which are other subgenus. Quite a few are I. purpureas. :-)

This message was edited Mar 18, 2009 7:42 AM

A few comments...

1) Some of the reasons for no current MG society are to be found in the thread here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/921598/

2) Morning Glories can be rooted from and perpetuated via cuttings,although clones are not necessary for a standard with guidelines for a cultivar...cats,dogs and horses are not required to be clones to meet a show standard...

3) Morning Glories may indeed change characteristics when grown out completely unchecked for several generations,but they absolutely do not change species...and e.g., if you let a group of chocolate point Himalayan cats run wild to breed at will with no selection by the breeder you will wind up with cats that do not look like Chocolate point Himmies , but if you carefully select and control the breedings you will maintain Chocolate Point Himalayans...so if you carefully select and hand pollinate with strict controls you can maintain the characteristics of a plant cultivar which may include outcrossing as well as line breeding...there are many plants which are maintained true to a standard by controlled hand pollination...

4) there are significant differences in the seeds of any strain of Ipomoea nil and Ipomoea alba...look very closely at the hilium characteristics and you may see the differences...the exact features of the hilium are to the seeds what the exact sepal characteristics are to the calyx of the plant i.e., these are most usually the most important identification Keys...

5) Ipomoea alba and Ipomoea nil have never been documented to have been crossed inter-specifically before and they are not likely to cross because although they are in the same genus,they are in completely different subgenera...i.e.,

Ipomoea nil in is subgenus Ipomoea and Ipomoea alba is in subgenus Quamoclit...very different...

6) A Japanese Morning Glory could potentially be any species of MG that have been worked on by asagao enthusiasts in Japan as expressed in my post entitled
What is a Real Japanese Morning Glory
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/vines/msg0923151115316.html

Hope that helps...


TTY,...


Ron

mine after 54 days from sprouting now have buds I am so exited can wait to see the flowers

this week I got the last of my seeds I am going to start them cant wait I am getting so exited about this years growing season

see what a few seeds can do to a garden

mona

Great Information, Ron . . .

Thanks for sharing,

Emma

Ron, a big thank you from me as well. The information was very helpful. I've enjoyed reading everyones post....all very helpful.

As much as I like Brad Pitt, naming a M.G. Brad Pitt was just a joke ;). I'm no where near naming a M.G., if ever. Should I do so, I would test for at least two years.

Mona, I love the name Jollie Blue, and would love to name one of my brugmansias Jollie Blue. The name has a Cajun ring to it, and my line of brugmansias will all have Cajun-type names.

Emma, I like 'em both...Allen & Brad ;)

All the J.M.G. seedlings that are coming up have amazed me! I would grow these beauties for just the foliage!!! This is the first time ever for me to grow JMG's, and I've got to say, I've been like a kid on Christmas morning each & every time I go to my GH. They are just stunning! I'd like to thank Karen (Gardener2005), Emma Grace, Caren (Heavenscent), & my sister Trish Ann for sharing JMG seed with me......JMG's are my newest love.

go for it use the name
and if you need more names let me know since my background is acadian and I actually have family in your area
some of my relative help build the first church in your area back 250 years ago or so

mona