I'm so glad to hear that the dealer things the prognosis is very good! That is a ray of sunshine.
I'm on the fence about whether to quarantine "Claire" - one of the remaining 3 baby koi - in a bucket with an aerator. When my two baby koi passed away a few weeks ago, she was hanging out right with them at the surface. I began feeding Medi Koi a little over a week ago, which they seem to relish, but today she is not looking very good. The heaters are set up and the temperature in the water is 72 degrees.
These fish...I tell you...
Fortunately for me I've only had them a few weeks and they are tiny. I can only imagine how hard it is to lose a larger fish that you've watched grow up. I really am happy to hear that Momma's prospects are looking good! Will you be able to receive updates from the dealer? (and of course keep us updated through them!)
Elizabeth
Sick Koi! Need Help With Diagnosis
IC: something is not right with your fish-consider it a parasite of some kind. What is your salt level at? Consider upping it for their health. Any other symptoms?
Sanpps: Glad to hear your news about Momma. Good Hi Utsuris are hard to find-I have wanted another since mine died this past summer after spawning and getting shoved into a rock. I'm glad you have an idea what is going on with your fish. What about the budge-impacted eggs?
MM, I don't want to hijack snapple's thread so I just posted again in the "High Drama and Heartache in the Baby Koi Pond" thread that I started when the other two fish got sick.
No such thing as hijacking when you've got a sick koi.
Hey we're used to hijacking here in the water gardens area of Daves. . . . Okay, I guess, I am used to hijacking and no one has complained yet. Snapple is right about the sick koi. I feel like we are all in this together and having had sick koi I know just how stressful it is.
The koi dealer called with an update. She isn't absolutely sure it's a bacterial infection after all. When I got the fish there they gave her a good visual going over and there was some red streaking on the belly. Red streaking is symptom of an infection. I guess the streaking is rapidly fading and might just have been from the stress of capture. However the swelling isn't improving. So now they think it's a swim bladder problem. They're going to treat her just as though it's bacterial anyway just in case and hope that warming her up and getting her digestive track functioning will take care of the swim bladder problem.
The dealer is crazy about Momma too. I've got a male Showa that she likes and we're talking about my loaning her my male for spawning with her female Showa this coming spring and her giving me back Momma after Momma spawns with her male Hi Utsuri. She'll keep the eggs. This is all kind of a surprise to me. I didn't realize they were "that" great as koi. Big, yeah, but not Harvard material. She was also quite impressed with Momma's size.
First things first. Momma's gotta quit standing on her head. Yesterday I thought she was probably not gonna survive at all. That could still be the case. My head hurts.
This message was edited Dec 9, 2008 7:27 AM
Well, that is certainly encouraging news .... on many counts!! It's great that you have someone near by who is genuinely concerned and so willing to be helpful! What a relief! And such an offer too, to get back Momma and the interest in your showa.
Hope your head feels better this morning.
:-)
(Now you can focus better on that other nasty)
I probably would have been more inclided to hijack the thread if I didn't already have so much information posted in the other one. I wanted to try to keep that thread intact so hopefully my newbie pond keeping blunders will help someone else with a sick fish in the future. It is almost like an experiment, figuring out what to add to the water.
Snapple, that would be wonderful if you could get Momma back all better! I'm so impressed with your dealer.
I knew she was good but, frankly even I'm surprised. I think it has to do with the fact that when she imported this fish ( with another one) for me she was really impressed with it. She has always asked about the fish when I would see her in my frequent trips to pick up ponding supplies.
There is some good news today. The dealer just called. "Momma" is now horizontal in the tank, resting quitely on the bottom with fins fully expanded and showing interest in food. Deb has been on the phone with the koi vet for Blueridge Koi for advice. Deb, the dealer, no longer imports directly from Israel or Japan like she used to because of KHV. She uses Blueridge and a couple other US wholesalers. The koi vet had her slow down on raising the tank temperature because he thought this was more likely a swim bladder problem with maybe a secondary bacterial infection. A faster hike in temp would aid the immune system but could aggravate the swim bladder. Today the tank temp is 54, up from 40 yesterday, so 14 degrees in a little less than 24 hrs. She is not out of the woods yet. The swelling is still pronounced and her anal vent has a slight tear. Maybe from capture, maybe from the internal pressure.
I know from experience that swim bladder problems in goldfish tend to reoccur, especially after a big water change or a change in temperature. It's possible that Momma will have to be an indoor koi permanently. In which case the dealer said she will keep her inside in her indoor show pond. Now how great is that! She's checking on the likelhood of a reoccurence in koi with "several sources".
Here's another surprise. An antifungal medication has some effect on swim bladder!! (I'll find out which antifungal.) Momma has no fungal infection, but they are treating her with an antifungal at the suggestion of the Blueridge koi vet. My head is just spinning at the complicated nature of diagnosing and treating a sick koi. It's no wonder we have sick koi die sometimes, and more remarkable that the average ponder can actually successfully treat one. I know this, I'll never kick myself again for losing a koi if I have done the best with what I have available. These are tricky animals that can puzzle the pros.
Oh yeah, If she makes a full recovery I can have her back after spawning in the spring, whether she spawns next season or not. Whoo Hooo!!
After all that, I might want her to be in an indoor tank (selfishly, of course) .... good and close to pamper and protect.
That's my thought too, WNY. I don't think I want to risk a reoccurence. The odd thing is that this happened six weeks after the pond temperature dropped. We got below average cold here early in the season and it's stayed below average. My previous experience with fancy goldfish is that it happens immediately. Like I said, even the pros don't have a total grasp of all koi diseases. It takes a necropsy sometimes to sort things out.
My own "just average Joe ponder guess" is that it's a bacterial inflammation of the swim bladder. But what do I know!
in a nutshell .... WAY more than I, that is fur-sur!
Can't wait to see Momma's new digs!! :-)
Update - the swelling has largely subsided. The fish is resting comfortably and behaving normally. If all remains well, in 14 days she will go into the indoor show pond. The treatments are; increase salt slowly to .35, Jungle antifungal, medicated feed, water to temp 74, and 1/2 doses of Pima and Melafix. Ph was the same in the treatment tank as the outdoor pond. She sent me e-mail shot of her horizontal ( which I couldn't get to post here) :( and the swelling is dramatically reduced. I would never had done this agressive a chemical mix of treatment out of fear of one reacting with another to produce a negative result. Boy! Am I ever learning!
Yippie!!
Amazing treatments. Looks like I got my answer about the wonderfully smelling Pima and Melafix products. I hate the fact that there is soooooo much "Bad" information out there in the care and treatment of Koi fish. I heard that the P and M products actually put the koi off there food because it messes with their sense of smell from someone well regarded at a koi meeting. And the worse thing is I repeated it here and it is being recommended (and apparently working) by a vet from a large hatchery. That peeves me off . . .
Glad to hear about Momma. In my koi books there was a few comments here and there that swim bladder problems tend to reoccur after the initial occurence with the changes in water temperature. Maybe a few of Momma's babies would be better for you to start over with and let Momma live the good life indoors. And can you send me a few as well . . .LOL! BTW: Who is this amazing dealer who is working with you? Does this dealer ship?
I read somewhere that the conflicting reports about treating with Pima/MelaFix (or any treatment for that matter) was that each work on some, but not all the types of ailments they treat.
Each person not realizing exactly what was wrong and what needed to be treated. Since Fungal and Bacterial Infections EACH come in forms a, b, c, d, e, etc., it is unlikely that ALL those forms would be "cured" with one miracle medicine. The one it worked on had form a, the one it didn't, form c, for example, both bacterial infections, but different forms.
Did that make any sense at all?? :-)
The dealer is Select Stone in Swanton, Ohio. She has two stone yards in NW Ohio. She deals with high end stone landscaping. She has a staff of stone specialists that can locate, carve, trim or cut any kind of stone you want. They hand cut a custom stone top to disguise my pond filter top. It's a fascinating place. She has a large koi pond facility about 3 miles from me at the Holland, Ohio location. About 50% of the facility is dedicated to koi and ponds. She also designs and installs ponds for very high end customers. NOT me! I bought my stuff from her and installed it myself. She does not ship koi. Her name is Deb Fry. She also has horses and breeds Rottweilers. She has a trio of giant Rotts and one giant Lab in the store and they are just marvelous, mingling with customers. Her Lab once got in the back of my van as I was loading and sat down for a ride! He was also soaking wet from a dip in one of the outdoor ponds. Her employee, who was assisting in the loading, was horrified. I could only crack up.
MM - About the Pima and Melafix and sense of smell in Koi, I wouldn't necessarily dissmiss as incorrect the information you were given. There might have been other factors in play that produced that result. I would still keep the information in the back of my mind and watch for it as a possibility. One thing I have learned from this is that the experts do disagree. Diagnosing and treating a sick koi is still part science, part experience and part art. If you're an average ponder it's also a measure of luck.
Your theory makes perfect sense WNY. I think that's why Momma's sitting in a chemical "spa" and something, or a combination of something is taking hold. It could also be the three Baytril injections are just now working too because her metabolism is functioning at a higher rate from warming up. She had a good load of antiobiotic on board when she went to the "spa".
Snapple,
Congratulations! - So glad to hear that Momma Koi is doing better and could even possibly come back to you at some point in time. That is the best news and I am very happy for you.
Willie/Linda - I don't think anything works on everything and I do agree there is a lot of bad information out there - it tends to be overwelming - especially when one is just starting out.
My own thoughts are that to find a reputable koi dealer is the best thing you can do. I know that my dealer gets her shipment in from Japan every spring and then they are all quarantined for 3-4 weeks before she opens. She is also a wealth of information and has helped us out with sick fish in the past.
Carolyn
I hope Momma is getting her nails (fins) done and getting nice warm stone massages with her complete "spa package". . . lol!
Visited Momma today at the spa. While much improved I think she's still quite sick. I think there is still a major issue with the swim bladder. Although she is horizontal, and her fins aren't clamped, she shows no fighting spirit or desire to move up off the bottom of the tank. Exhaustion, plus shock from the move and maybe an infection still going on. Sigh.......
Maybe she just needs more rest and some time to be pampered at the spa. I think I would be tuckered after all that, myself.
Momma died overnight. I'm not suprised. They are doing a necropsy on her today. Will post the results.
Oh Snapple,
I am so sorry.
Carolyn
So sorry to hear that. You did all you could.
Snapple, I'm so, so sorry to hear that. You went way above and beyond and it sounds like Momma was very comfortable when she passed on.
Elizabeth
Thanks ic. The dealer just called with necropsy results. She was massively, severely egg impacted. She did have a secondary bacterial infection caused by the egg impaction. She said that's good news because it means my other fish are safe. There wasn't anything I could have done at this stage. This is a known risk with female koi. I did notice that before she spawned she could hardly get up off the bottom of the pond she was so full of eggs. After she spawned she seemed fine. Her belly was normal, so I thought, and she swam and ate normally. The dealer said that if I ever saw another female koi that heavy with eggs and that also had trouble getting up off the pond bottom to net the koi and milk it. I wish I'd known that last May.
She has photos of the necropsy/egg impaction that she's going to send to me later in the day. If any of you want to see them d-mail me and I'll try to attach them to a d-mail. I won't post them here because some people might find them too hard to look at and get upset. I'm ok with it. Knowledge is power. This is how you learn.
awe .... great sadness ......
I swear, I'm buying only male koi if I can help it when I get the outdoor pond set up.
In all seriousness, I agree, this is how you learn. Last night my husband suggested that we just throw out this batch of little koi, drain and sanitize the pond, and get new fish from a reputable source. My answer was, no way, this is how you learn. Just because you buy fish healthy from a reputable dealer does not mean that in six months, or six years, you might run into a major problem requiring treatment.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
What do you have in your pond for the koi to spawn on in the spring? I've heard that if you have a bunch of spawning brushes for the fish, it reduces the chance of females becoming egg bound and gives them somewhere "soft" to release their eggs, rather than the males just shoving them against the pond sides and rocks.
You have a good point. I had only tubbed lilies. They sure made a mess of those. They got up inside the lily foliage and laid their eggs in there. Spawning brushes would indeed have been better. I feel like an idiot.
Guess I better get some too. But I thought it was the males pushing the females that cause the females to release the eggs.
That theory had worked for me so far!
I think that the females need the males to push them to release their eggs, but the males have to push them into something, right, to get leverage? I can't say much, my biggest koi is 5" and I've had them for only a month - in which time three have died - the spawning brush suggestion is strictly from reading, not real life, experience. It is just my understanding that the spawning brushes work work because they are soft and you can choose where to put the brushes. Plus, after the spawning they are easy to pull out of the pond and rinse, in case you don't want babies. Or, you can put them in a tank if you want a controlled hatch.
I think the spawning brushes only reduce, but do not elliminate, the risk of female koi becoming eggbound.
I can't find the exact article online (but will keep looking), but here is a link to one site that sells spawning brushes. I swear I thought there was a link somewhere that had a kind that you could anchor to the floor of the pond, but that might be some other accessory I'm thinking of.
http://www.usakoi.com/subcat455.html
I just ordered some from a company I'm kind of fond of, Aquatic Eco. They're more of a commercial fish hatchery place but have a good line of water garden supplies. Here's what they say.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/search/0/spawning%20brushes
"The spawning brushes are made from a soft material that will not harm fish, these brushes are commonly used in koi ponds to encourage fish to spawn. Simply place the brushes just below the water level, one on top of the other, at the edge of your pond. As the fish spawn on the brushes, the eggs will attach to the soft bristles, allowing the eggs to be separated from the broodfish so they will not be eaten. The brushes can then be placed in clean filtered water and eggs will hatch in 3–6 days. Brushes measure 59" long x 5½" diameter and are sold 2 per pack."
This is the most unusual stocking stuffer I've ever bought myself. Since I have trouble imagining me milking a big healthy koi I'd much rather go this route and avoid the whole thing. You have no idea what it's like holding a slippery thrashing 15 lb. koi.
I think you need to give the koi a little drink of something to relax before you milk them, the brushes seem much more natural!
Yup, you're going to need a BIG PAIR of stockings - those brushes are nearly five feet long each!
Snapple, how old was your fish?
The little "drink of something" would go in me! I still don't have the pictures yet. Tomorrow I'm going to pay for the koi boarding. It was $5.00 daily for koi "intensive care" . If I dont get the pictures sometime tonight I'll be sure to get them tomorrow.
She was 5 years here. 10" when I got her. Just beautiful. She was the fish everyone noticed first and always said they liked best.
I've already called the other local dealer that I trust. He's going to put out some special requests for spring but wasn't too hopeful. Deb, Momma's importer, said the same thing. Hi Utsuris that quality are hard to find now. I suppose I could net order but with KHV you've got to maintain strict quarantine protocols. Deb quarantines everything of course. So does my one other fish source. Deb goes the extra mile with eveything she does.
Deb sounds like a great person. Wish I had someone like that around here.
I think I read somewhere that they use clove oil to keep the koi calm during milking.
I think I should also be stuffing my stocking in anticipation of next year's scenario.