I checked the pond about 4:00 pm yesterday. All was fine. Checked the pond this morning and I have a large female koi head standing. She has a large bulge on one side of her anal area. This is not a symmetrical bulge like dropsy and there are no pine cone scales . It appears as though there is air trapped somehow which won't allow her to rest parallel but causes her tail end to float. It's 16 degrees here. There is no way I can set up a quarantine tank. This fish is over 2' long. The water temp is 40.8. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all 0. Salt is .15. I could add more salt in small amounts around the perimiter of the pond which would slowly raise the salt level.
This fish will eventually be exhausted from trying to stay down in the warmer water at the bottom of the pond. I can't find my best koi disease reference book. This place is a jumble of books I've been meaning to straighten out for months. Any of you have any ideas? I'm heart sick.
There are overhead utility wires over the pond that squirrels use for a runway. It's not uncommon for them to drop something into the water while doing their high wire act. A couple of weeks ago I found a chunk of squirrel chewed squash in the pond. It's possible something got dropped into the water that this fish might have eaten. Other wise they have had no food since the beginning of Nov.
Sick Koi! Need Help With Diagnosis
Which book are you looking for? If I have it I can look the symptoms up this evening when I'm at home and see if I find anything. Can koi get eggbound this late in the season?
You know, egg bound is what I thought of too, but in November? She did spawn this past spring. I can't find Koi Health and Diseases ( Johnson). If you could take the time after work to check yours for me I'd be so grateful. In the mean time I'm home today and I'm now forced to take on the task getting my reference books in order. If I manage to find it I'll post.
Thanks
Mary
According to this post, koi females can have a tumor formed if they get eggbound, though I still think it would have been apparent earlier in the season: http://www.nishikigoi-info.com/koi/2007/06/egg-bound-koi.html
I also found a post from October 8 on a koi blog asking what to do about egg bound koi. So, maybe it is not too late in the season? I will look at the Dr. Johson book as soon as I get home from work!
So are you saying this fish has issues with maintaining her depth in the water, is situated crookedly and is also bulging from one side? This is what I am going to look into in my books. Is this fish under the ice where you can't get to her? Can you defrost it where she is and bring her in? Too bad we don't live near one another-I bought hip waders for cold water a few months ago for emergencies.
Hang on Snapps-I will investigate!
A couple things I found but none quote anything about their "air bladder". The following is from the koivet book Pg. 76
If not pine coning consider the following:
Fatty liver degeneration
cystic or cancerous ovary
cystic (hydronephrotic) kidney
other tumor (sarcoma is common)
infection/absess
fecal or roe impaction
I will continue to research because nothing is mentioned about that air bladder issue.
Bless you mm! The pond is not ice covered and I can catch her fairly easily. I bought a huge progessional koi net with a 10' reach last summer just in case. With the water temp at 40 degrees she wont be able to outrun the net. She's head standing and struggles periodically to get parallel. There is a growing bulge around the anal vent and up her left side. Other than that no visible signs of injury or ulcers. No streaked fins. No rapid breathing, nothing just a bloated bottom end that wants to float. I called my vet and asked him to set me up with some 5% Baytril and 5 syringes. I'm going to inject her this evening when DH gets home for help. If it's an internal bacterial infection I might just be able to take care of it. I'm guessing her weight at 15lbs 6.8 kg. If it's an overdose so much the better. With a compromised immune system due to the cold water It's harmless and better to overdose than underdose.
My only problem with the injections is how quickly I'll have to do it. DH will have to stand in the house with the syringe to keep it warm and dash out to the pond the second I get her up. It's 21 degrees right now. She can't be out of the water for more than 30 seconds or so. I going to put a tub of hot water by the pond with a bath towel in it. That way I'll have a warm wet towel to throw over her right away while I get her in position to inject. OMG this is so stressful. I hope to high heaven I don't have to do a second round. It's three once daily injections followed by two more on alternate days for a total of 5. I've done this once before but in the spring. It was successful and I still have that koi.
Thanks mm. None of that sounds very good does it? I appreciate this a lot.
Snapple-You have more than 30 seconds (believe me, I know. . . ). Second-no towels please-put the fish in a plastic bag and inject through the bag-waaaayy less stressful for the fish and yourself, and is also better for her protective coating. You could also use oil of cloves to make it easier (stress wise) for both yourself and the fish
I found some more information that might relate: Pg 108 of koi vet (I copied the whole thing word for word)
"Head Down, Tail at surface"
This is often a symptom of a bacterial infection-but has been seen in any pathology of the gills, including koi herpes virus. Check the water, observe all points at firstaid and make SURE you get some injections on board as soon as possible. You will lose the head-down fish within a week to 10 days and then the others will die if you do not intercept the parasites which may have precipitated this and intercept the bacterial invasion going on inside. INJECT, Inject, Inject. The end>
Okay, even if you aren't sure of the EXACT dx injections sound like the plan. Have you done this before and are you prepared to do them? THere are excellent video's at the koi vet site on how to inject and where to inject.
Here are the dosing volumes for baytril:
Dose: Baytril @ 2.27% 14mg/kg OR 3 mg per 6 inches of fish /or0.1 cc per 6 inches of fish intra-peritoneally. Pg 121 for picture of where that is. You can also inject through the netting it says.
Frequency: Daily for three injections and then EOD for two more (EOD=every other day)
Did you dump out a Rubbermaid tub to hold this fish indoors for treatment? That is what I would do if I were you. Winter is a horrible time to try and treat fish. I'm rooting for you Snapple!
I have to leave my home in 40 minutes-can I help you with anything else?
Snapple-read your d-mail.
Thanks mm. I'm gathering all the information. I did a round of injections once before but a refresher is great to have. She is too big to maintain in a tub for any length of time.
Okay-found some more information about swim bladder disorder.
`From Manual of Koi Health by Holmes ad Pitham (this may be from my MIL who lives in the UK)
Pg 118 They talk about swim bladder problems like you described with a rapid decrease in temperature and happens during the colder months of winter and only rectifies in Spring. They also mention that they can occur of their own accord or be triggered by another health problem such as tumour, egg retention, internal fluid build-up, or bacterial infection.
I suspect it is something like that triggering your problem.
Treatment is maintaining a stable water temp (fat chance in the midwest . . .) slowing heating the pond up 2 degrees per day witha heating system ($$$). Another measure is to lift the koi off the bottom and maintain it in a floating net or cage within the pond. (this is dangerous in our midwest weather). Salt baths are another option-a dose rate of 22g per litre (yes, i can now tell this book is from England with those measurements) should be used for 10 minutes-three times a day. Locating a fish specialist vet may be worth trying as they may be able to reinflate/deflate the swimbladder-but there is limited success in doing so.
I think koivet may have surgical procedures on egg bound removal and swimbladder surgery on their site (I know I saw it somewhere this summer when my fish were sick). Are you up to the injections let alone any surgery?
More on gauging weight rates for females koi:
12 inches Female estimate weight at .8 kg (1.8 pounds)
14 1.25 kg (2.75 pounds)
18 1.9 kg (4.2 pounds)
20 2.5 kg (5.5-6.6 pounds)
22 inches 4.5 kg (10 pounds)
24 5.5 kg -6 kg (12.1-13.2 pounds)
28 7.0 kg (15.4 pounds)
Males are a lot smaller as they grow longer thus would require smaller doses of medicine.
That's very reassuring mm. I guestimated her weight at 15 lbs. I got it pretty close. No - I'm NOT up the injections, but I will be in about 1/2 hr. Have to do it before dark. Just waiting on DH to get home.
The first injection is done. It went reasonably well, all things considered. Next time I'll handle the net better now that I know how. The remaining injections should be quick and easy. If the fish lives, that is.
We're rooting for her!!!! What a lousy time of year for this to happen.
How did you end up injecting-through the net, a bag or solo? How did the fish do? How did you catch her - is she very friendly towards you?
Did you get a chance to feel the bulge on her? What did it feel like-hard or soft? Hard would be eggs, soft would be cyst like -these are my guesses though-based on human experience. I sure hope things go better for you. Tomorrow you will have an idea if the medicine is working or not. I'm rooting for you too!
I injected through the net. I use a site right behind the pectoral fin. It is scaleless and you are much less likely to hit an internal organ. I alternate fins with each injection. Her belly was soft until you got to the anal area, then it was quite firm. There wasn't much time for more than a cursory exam given the 18 degree air temperature. My DH stood right by me with the syringe inside hs coat to keep it warm until I had her up and positioned.
This fish is conditioned to feed from my hand. But there is no love for being netted. She just did everything in her power to escape the net. The only reason I was able to get her was because of the cold. They simply can't move as fast when they are cold. She didn't seem any worse for the wear immediatly after but it's too soon to tell anything.
I have to be honest. I don't have a good feeling about this. The water is just too cold making this fish essentially defensless against a bacterial infection or stress. And she is every bit as big as I guestimated. You'd need a really big set up to keep her inside, at least 10 x 10 x 3, and it would have to be maintained until spring. About all I can say it that I'm giving it my best, such as it is.
So the injection went well for you-I'm glad because it is scary to do. Do you mind me asking what your vet charged for the baytril/injections? I hope she improves-what is her name?
Not at all. I never even thought to look at the bill until you asked. I mean what are you going to do? My choices are pretty limited. He charged me $31.50. I haven't named the koi. I named one that I had become way too fond of. He was quite a fish. Then suddenly "Festus" just went belly up and died. Fine for the morinig feeding, dead by 6:00 pm with no symptoms. I was in shock for a month. Not long after that I lost my 7 yr old calico oranda ( inside aquarium) "Thelma". That one hurt real bad. She used to stare out the tank window when she expected to be fed. She spawned in the tank. I had coffee with that fish every morning. She was also the size of a desert plate. I still miss that fish. So, I don't name them anymore. I collectively call them them "The Gang". That's it. Today's sick koi is a female Hi Utsuri. If she makes it I might call her Momma. As in "One tough Momma".
Do you have a koi vet? We don't have one any where in the area. I have to take a copy of a page from one of Dr. Johnson's books with what I think is the diagnosis and dosing information to my vet in order to get what I need. The first time he was real reluctant. He's a good vet but kind of particular.
This time I just called and said I needed what I had last time and the office got it ready for me. His staff is top notch. The vet is very good with the dog/cat thing. He even had one of his vet tech's make home Hospice calls to check on Duke ( pomeranian- pit bull mix) in Duke's last days at home. We all knew it was getting close and I wanted someone more objective to evaluate him without the stress of a trip to the vets. The vet tech would stop in on her way home from work or while getting lunch. Talk about comfort. It helped me more than the dog.
This message was edited Dec 5, 2008 9:21 PM
Well, there is a new vet in town (this summer) that says she treats koi but I already knew more than her with my experiences this past summer. I do the same as you, my regular vet has copies of all the koi vet information (I made him copies) and he will work with me to medicate the fish. He truly loves animals and has stated on more than one occasion he wishes he lived closer to visit my pond and fish. This vet is my dogs (3) and my cats (2) vet and I travel an hour each way to see him because I feel he is extra special. I was referred to him when I was having behavioral issues with a cat that is now deceased. He was the most honest and direct vet I have ever encountered. He also spoke on the phone with me for over an hour free of charge. I learned from him that a lot of the testing done on animals is inaccurate or unnecessary if the "draw" is performed certain ways. Like for a cat you cannot insert a needle into their bladder to determine if there is an infection or blood without compromises the result. There will always be blood present with this method because of the needle. I spent a ton of money with previous vets doing testing like that and then medicine to support the "thought blood" in the urine only to learn I was incorrectly diagnosed and charged for it . . .
This vet also reviewed my sister's dog's medical case that resulted in her beloved puppy dying due to improper procedures by the vet after surgery. His statements resulted in a settlement. Whilst, it didn't replace her darling dog, it did slap the hand of the vet in question-and also the vet has it on her record in our state that she had this issue in the past.
Alright, sorry, got carried away with my stories (I'm turning into my mother . . .).
So, snapple-how is tough Momma doing today? Any improvement?
A truly good vet can be hard to find. My vet is much more cooperative about treating my koi because his vet tech has seen them and our pond during one of her home visits for Duke.
I just walked in the door from her second injection. The catching process was tons quicker because I got tons smarter from yesterday's experience. She seemed stronger but is still swollen and head standing. She is definitely no worse. Only time will tell.
Thank heaven the weather was warmer today. It's 28, not the bitter 18 it was yesterday. That was brutul.
Good to hear things aren't worse. How many days do you think it will take to see improvement?
She should have already shown more improvement. I know the cold water is just the worst situation this fish could be in and I can't do a darn thing about it. Tomorrow I'm going to call the dealer who impoted her for me and ask if she would like the koi. She has taken in other quality koi that were ill. Of course if they survive they're hers to keep. I don't care about that at this point. I just would like to see this fish have a better chance.
I just sent the dealer an e-mail. Hopefully I'll hear back from her soon.
Thanks All
Mary
This message was edited Dec 6, 2008 8:04 PM
crossing my fingers.
Mary, any chance you can pay the dealer a boarding fee for the koi and for medical care? Do you really need to give her away, since you are so attached to her? Of course, do what is best for the koi - I'm just suggesting that there might be a middle ground you can reach with the dealer.
Hopefully there will be improvement soon.
Elizabeth
That's a good thought ic. I will definitley, definitely ask her. The worst that can happen is that she says no I guess. I have to admit I don't want to part with her, even if she didn't have a name until now. This sucks. But you all have been through it too. No sense in my whining about it. It happens.
Snapple,
You are right, it does happen and we have all been through it - however, it makes it none the less upsetting or heartbreaking.
I am wondering if would be possible to add some Pima Fix to the water. Pima Fix is supposed to treat fungal and bacterial problems both internally and externally in the koi and it is supposed to be absorbed through their skin - http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11269. The thing I do not know is that some of these things will only work at a specific water temperature and that is something you would have to check into. I am thinking that in fighting this infection 2 ways, you may be ok and won't have to give up Momma koi.
Another thing - the link that I sent you for the Pima Fix - I don't know if you deal with Dr. Fosters' and Smith, but their support people may be able to diagnose Momma koi over the phone. I have done this with them in the past and their people are excellent and right on the mark.
I am also wondering about your other fish - how are they?
Let us know and best of luck.
Carolyn
Here's an interesting page of info on Pimafix and Melafix:
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fish-care-health-disease-treatment/18757-melafix-pimafix-how-they-work-don-t-work.html
I use both Pimafix (fungal) and Melafix (bacterial) together in the pond. They smell really nice, too .... eucalyptus like.
Nothing on the bottles about temperature, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is effective below 55ºF, but how far below, I do not know ........
I heard at a koi meeting the the pima fix and mela fix products and their smell can inhibit the koi from eating because their sense of smell is v. good. Not that that matters in winter in zone 5 and no food. I love the the smell of that product and have used it in the past but wondered if it was a "desperation sell/purchase" to a lady with a lot of sick and dying koi (me this summer).
Snapple: Tell me again why this fish can't come inside? Also, do you have a koi club near you that can "loan" you the necessary equipment for the winter? I believe our koi club in IL does that for free - I'm not a member but thought I read that online at the Midwest Koi site.
I am guessing a concern in bringing them in at this time is changing their core temperature too quickly, though, I haven't any learned knowledge in this area.
I know it needs to be done slowly. I was thinking the same thing about bringing Momma koi inside and to eventually be able to get some food into her to build up her immunities. Perhaps a triple antibiotic food.
It concerns me we have not heard from Snapple - I am hoping that is not a bad sign.....
Snapple, how are you and Momma koi doing?
Carolyn
The body of the fish is 24" long, probably 30 with the tail. She is standing on her head. I don't have room in the garage for a tub 3' deep and at least 6' across to hold her in all winter. It's a one car garage with 3 vintage motorcycles and a Miata stored for winter. There is no room in the Inn, I'm afraid. I'll call Foster&Smith. That's a good idea. There is no local koi club. The nearest is a 2-1/2 hr drive, one way. I havn't heard from the koi dealer yet. She is my best bet, if I could just reach her. Tomorrow morning they are open and I'll get her as soon as she comes in. The fish is no sicker. She had her third injection at 4:00 today. I had to melt the ice in a section to get room enough to bring her up. I got her up and injected very quickly, in the net. Minimal truama to the koi. But, I had taken my gloves off to position and inject her and my hands got wet of course. Then I grabbed the 20 degree metal net handle with my wet hands. Froze my hands to the handle. It was more funny than ouchy!
The other fish are fine. They all look and act perfectly healthy. I usually don't disclose personal stuff on here (mainly because who wants to hear it anyway and this isn't the place) but my DH and I are self employed. We discovered an employee was stealing money Friday, and confirmed it today. It's not a huge amt., but serious. This employee is not yet aware that he/she has been caught. I will be dealing with this employee and the police tomorrow. Work schedules will have to adjusted to cover his/her duties and the matter addressed with the other employees. So, what I'm saying is I don't know if I'll be posting any updates tomorrow. My plate is full.
The good news is that the weather is supposed to warm up tomorrow so the pond water will too. That should help Momma.
This message was edited Dec 7, 2008 7:10 PM
Ouch! Sorry to hear about your trust being violated like that. The same thing just happened to my friend with his business. Glad to hear it wasn't a "huge amount," though with a breach in trust as such, amounts are irrelevant .... It becomes hard to trust anyone. Hope your dealings with that all goes as smoothly as one can expect in such a situation.
Glad to hear things have maintained a status quo in the pond! Go take care of business and Momma!! We can wait with baited breath for more news on Momma when it is convenient for you!
I'm so sorry to hear that too. It is fortunate that you caught it now before it did become a huge amount (usually the employee does not stop until they either quit and go work somewhere else or they are caught). Embezzlement is about one of the biggest breaches of trust that an employee can commit with their employer. You have too many unpleasant things to deal with this month...who else is completely ready to say "bye, bye!" to 2008? I will not miss seeing this year gone.
Sorry about the Office . . we own our own businesses too but have very few employees and are limited to our risks since our businesses are small. That invasion would be very difficult for me to overcome.
Momma is still on her head huh? Even though your koi club is 2.5 hours away it doesn't mean all the members live that far away and someone may live closer to you who can help in some way. Maybe meeting you half way with supplies or to do a transport where they board Momma and attempt to save Momma. How is the bulge in Momma's side-any change?
Snapple,
you seem to have your share - I am so sorry. I am wondering if the fact that Momma koi has not gotten any worse is possibly a good sign?
Crossing all my fingers and toes.
Carolyn
In the chaos and confusion there is some good news. The dealer took the koi. I just got back from delivering her. The dealer plans to keep her. I'm OK with that. It was certain slow death if I kept her. The dealer feels she has a very good chance of recovering. Their diagnosis is a bacterial infection. I'll shop around for a good Hi Utsuri in the spring. Preferably a female. Now, there is this huge business mess to attend to. We're working through it.
Thanks for everyone's support. Good heavens, y'all dont know how much it meant to me.
Mary