Another Dumb Question about Containers for WS

This is just what the subject says.

What I am wondering is this:
Why bother with jugs, bottles, plastic containers, etc., in fact with anything that creates a kind of mini-"greenhouse", since the point is not to keep the seeds (or seedlings) warm, is it?
Isn't it to allow them to germinate at their own time?
And wouldn't seedlings that were not "protected" by covers be even better adapted?

So, why not just seed into seedtrays or pots just as if starting the seeds indoors under lights?

I think of the jugs as a small cold frame, not a greenhouse. When it's warm, the lids are removed or bent away. The lids keep leaves and other debris from blocking the sunlight, and afford some protection from hard rainfall splashing the seeds around.

If I put a tray of seeds outdoors, the squirrels and chipmunks would destroy it or plant other things there, like acorns and walnuts. And I have fewer weeds than I do from planting in trays. Also, in general the trays don't hold enough soil for seedlings to grow as long as the winter sown plants might be in their containers. The larger volume of soil is less likely to dry out, too. Most containers are easier to move than trays as well. And it's inexpensive, no trays to buy.

Just my perspective
Mike

OK, Thanks Mike for the input.
I don't have squirrels or chipmunks, so that's not an issue.
If I plant in the winter, are there going to be weed seeds blowing around?
I do have LOTS of pots, but would have to buy other containers.
How long do you figure on the seedlings being in their containers?
Wouldn't you pot them on at the 2nd true leaf stage anyway?
I'm so used to indoor Spring sowing that this is still mysterious to me.

Jim

some folks do use pots, but still put them in a baggy of sorts
as for the trays ... as Mike mentioned, there is not enough soil, depth-wise, to get a good root system.

I've used a few trays, and my seedlings did much better in milk jugs, 2Ltr bottles, etc than they did in the trays.
plus -- the tray were much more costly.

I've also grown some in the window or on a heat mat .... the WS seedlings always did much better.

>>And wouldn't seedlings that were not "protected" by covers be even better adapted?

again - Mike hit the nail on the head here.... they are 'protected' from the critters that would disturb or eat the seeds.
and protect them from heavy rains, snows - washing the seeds either away, or into a huge pile at the bottom of a ravine or something.

hope this helps,

Terese

Jim -- birds will eat seeds too.

>>If I plant in the winter, are there going to be weed seeds blowing around?

I would say YES to this. Since i have a large field near my property ... i always have the blowing seeds as a problem.

for your pots ... some folks will use big 'ziploc' type bags and put the pots right in there.... snip holes in the bottom to let the excess water escape, and leave a vent at the top [some use clothes pins to partially close the top - but still let rain/snow/air in the top]

I'm sure there are photos of this somewhere, as i saw them a year or so ago ... possibly in the containers thread.

as for planting out... yes - second set of true leaves ... but some of us, who WS way too many containers, dont always get to all the pots/containers and they are actually blooming when they go in the ground.

again HTH.

Terese

Yes, indeed, all this is a big help!
I want to try this this year, especially because I have a bunch of seeds that require stratification and I figure Ma Nature can do that better than I can with my frigo!

It seems, from what you are saying, that WS plants will get bigger root systems than indoor-seeded plants? I ask because the pots, especially after transplanting, have always offered plenty of room for root systems that were healthy when transplanted into the garden. Also, I am wondering, if the seeds germinate at a time that is good for them according to nature, can't they be moved almost directly into the garden, therefore not requiring to stay in any container to build up a big root system?

I just figured that all those weeds that came up in the Spring were from seeds blowing around in the Fall. Aren't your neighbour weeds covered by snow in the Winter, Terese?
This could be a real issue, I see, because I am surrounded by fields.

Now, I am basically a vegetable gardener, so I pant LOTS of seeds in the open in the Spring. I even plant a lot of 2nd crop seeds in the ground and in pots in the Summer. So I am trying to equate WS to that. Birds get some, but I use thermal cloth in the Spring and netting in the Summer for "field-sown" seeds and no protection for the pots (even the crows, here, at least, don't seem inclined to eat from pots).

Now, what do you DO with all those containers of seeds? [I read somewhere that someone was sowing 200 milk jugs!] I've got a BIG garden, but I think I'd have "wife rebellion" on my hands if I had that many plants looking for a home!

And, if the plants are already blooming by the time you plant them out, do they succeed? None of the plants I have let get that far along in indoor culture have done anything!!!

I am happy to get all the advice I can. If I sound "contentious" with my questions, that is not really the case, but just because I am used to doing things one way and trying to understand the reasons that things are done another!

>>Aren't your neighbour weeds covered by snow in the Winter, Terese?

Sometimes.... but sometimes we dont get a lot of snow. Many of the weeds I have here is Cut Leaf Teasel, Golden Rod, Queen Ann's Lace, amongst others. With them being taller plants, the seeds dont always fall off right away.

>>Now, what do you DO with all those containers of seeds?

Much of my WS grown seeds actually are going behind my home, on state owned property .. .my neighbor and I are maintaining it to help keep the weeds from taking over.

here is one image taken over the summer... you can see all the tall weeds ... that is looking south... an area i do not take care of.

>>And, if the plants are already blooming by the time you plant them out, do they succeed? None of the plants I have let get that far along in indoor culture have done anything!!!

No -- they seem to do fine. As long as they get water .... when i was gone for most the summer, my son was watering all the ones i did not get in the grounds. There is only one left... i thought it was a dud [Strawberry Fields, i think it's called] and it currently has a flower. BUt i will most likely just leave it, as it is an annual.

I'll have to see if i can locate an image of some of my stragglers from this summer....

here is a shot looking North .... all these were grown by seed.

here are some of the stragglers that did not make it into the ground until August sometime.
As you can see... some are blooming.

the "box" way at the top... those are all Columbine. I brought those with me to Wisconsin, where i have a summer place, which is mostly shade. I planted those Mid-September i think.

Nice photos!
I see a lot of the same flowers I want to WS this year!
Hope springs eternal!

On the other hand, I planted my indoor-under-lights Columbines (one of my big favorite flowers) in May and they are now giving me a surprise 1st year flowering!!!

I can't seed too many, because it kills me to "recycle" a plant that gas no home and no taker.

All of my wintersown plants go in the ground early. They go right from the milk jugs to ground, and I try to get them in by 2nd true leaf stage as time and weather permit. I usually take a week of vacation from work in early to mid May strictly to plant seedlings. I am a firm believer that they do much better in the ground than in any container.

I'm generally not too particular about getting this accomplished. If one is really thickly sown, like in this picture, I just cut into little squares and plant a hunk with a spoon.

Karen

Karen -- that is the key --- Time and weather permitting.

this year, after Mid-May, i just wasn't home. I'd come home a few days a month, and weather permitting... i'd be sticking them in the ground anywhere i could find room.

I think i have to expand a few of my beds for next year.

but you are correct ... the lil seedlings do MUCH better in the ground.

Once the top few inches of my soil thaw, and snow is gone, my planting starts. Hardy annuals and perennials do fine when planted out in April, 4 to 6 weeks before my last frost date. They make it through hard frosts just fine. I also move existing plants by then, and volunteer seedlings like larkspur which just pop up in a bad spot, (like 5 foot larkspur which show up as volunteers right at the front of a bed). Most of those are moved in early spring, as soon as the soil is able to be worked, like in March. That gives me a headstart before my wintersown seedlings are ready.

Karen

Thanks to all of you for all the help and suggestions.
One more question: When do you START your WS?

Some start at "Winter Solstice" which is just before Christmas, so most are too busy to start then.

I usually get rolling in February -- dead of winter here.

But this will only be my 3rd year

This year i may shoot for January.

I just saw this thread so I'm jumping back to the beginning....I'm very intrigued as I've never been to Europe....Jim, you don't have squirrels or chipmunks in France??!! I would never have thought - I thought squirrels were everywhere. LOL! And then there's the chipmunks....I have Simon, Alvin and Theodore living in my backyard. Hee hee.

No chipmunks in Europe; except for one in Siberia (poor guy, [Aleksi, I think] he got cut off, somehow!), they are all North American.
We do have squirrels. There were lots of them where we used to live, about 40 km from here, but I've only seen 3 in the 5 years we have been in this house; and I saw them on 3 consecutive days this summer. It may have been the same one, enjoying a hiking holiday!

I am coming in late as well.

I started winter sowing because I have very little space in my house to start seeds.
I found out that my seedlings planted in containers outside were so much stronger and easier to do that I don't start anything inside any more.

Each year I am more careful about how many seeds I plant. My friends and neighbors don't want any more "extras" and I don't have anywhere to plant them. I still end up with seedlings to trade and give away no matter how careful I think I am being.

Me too, zen. My flower beds are all overstuffed now. Many plants didn't thrive this year simply because they were so badly dwarfed and shaded by tall plants nearly. I have dug out a lot of plants this fall- probably 15 established perennials- and given them away, simply for lack of room. It's getting to the point that I only keep what I really, really, like. I know I said I was cutting back on my sowing last year, but this year I really have to.

After having given away so many nice plants, I'll probably lose a lot over winter and my beds will be empty next year!

Karen

Karen, Then you will have room for your winter sowing.

I really can't do many. But I'll definitely be trying the red rudbeckias. That's the only one I'm certain about.

Karen

I try to plant out my containers as soon as the plants are 3-4" tall. I find they are easier to handle when they are smaller. Depending on the plant, I will either plant out in clumps or break them up and plant individually.
I love the plastic water containers, but I've been trying to be more green this year and haven't purchased water. Instead I use the purifying filters. I am trying to decide what to do about the decrease in containers as a result of that decision. In the past I would put the containers out for recycling when I transplanted. I am wondering how easy it would be to clean them and use them again. I am intrigued with the thought of using nursery containers, but how to keep them covered and maintain the increased humidity the containers allow for.

Anita: If you use something like 4" nursery pots, you can put them in large sterilite bins or something similar. I've done that with plastic yogurt cups in an underbed storage bin and it works OK. Kind of a pain and more time consuming working with those little cups, though.

Karen

Here's another time I show my complete ignorance: why do you need "increased humidity" in winter sowing pots? I thought I understood from some of the first answers in this thread that the principle of 'covering' these at all is to keep weed seeds and "predators" out, not to create mini greenhouses.

So, OK, I AM using water bottles (because I continue to buy water for reasons that I needn't go into), and I am going to "corral" them in wooden produce boxes. Yeah, those cheap and flimsy boxes that look like a child's imitation of an apple box or orange crate. Here, at least, nearly all fresh vegetables arrive at the supermarkets and groceries in these boxes. The local bio-grocery lets me carry off as many of these as I want (and, just today, I saw that the supermarket across the road from my vet leaves them on the curb for the garbageman to pick up!). I use them for all kinds of things: arranging and storing tools and DIY materials; drying and storing garlic, shallots, onions, dahlia tubers and gladiolus bulbs; storing potatoes; keeping all of those excess nursery pots in order! Of course, for all these purposes, they are usable year after year. I figure that 1 season of "winter sowing" will end their usable life, but nearly everything is recyclable/recycled here, so, in the Spring, when I don't need them any longer, I'll just take them to the decheterie (recycling centre). I bet that if you check behind Safeway or Kroger's or whatever you have out there on LonG Island ... or ask the friendly produce person at your favorite store ... you'll find the same boxes to corral your nursery pots.

For a cover to keep out weed seeds and pests, the cheapest grade of "plexiglas" at your local HD or Lowe's can cover a whole bunch of boxes. I see that both these DIY stores sell clear plastic sheeting, which you could staple over the tops of the boxes. Or, if you want rain to do your watering, why not use chicken wire.

I deeply sympathize with your efforts to "be more green", so I offer these possibilities in the spirit that some one-time purchases to shift to a more "sustainable" winter sowing that might work for you will be helpful.

Thanks Jim, you just gave me an "aha moment"!!

This will be my third year to wintersow. I only do a very small number of containers and have just had them clustered up on my porch. Your mention of the crates flipped the light switch in my brain. I just remembered I have several plastic milk crates upstairs, They would be perfect to set my containers in so the don't get blown over!!

I do admit to being a little slow sometimes. :)

Since the soil is damp when I plant the seeds and then everything freezes for the next 3 or 4 months I see no reason to keep them humid.

I think there many ways to winter sow. I don't ever cover mine completely. I use milk jugs cut on 3 sides leaving the 4th side as a hinge and throw away the caps. I do tape the jugs closed. This one is a juice jug. I am not going to use them anymore because they do not have straight sides and it makes it hard to get some of the seedlings out.
As you can see the seedlings in this one are ready to be planted.

Need for a dome probably varies for different people in different climates. I do have a lot of birds and squirrels, voles and chipmunks, occasional possums and raccoons... Domes probably at least help somewhat to protect from digging by critters. Of course, a raccoon won't be deterred much if he really wants in.

I'm not an indoor seed starter, but even for that process a lid or dome is usually recommended to increase humidity and encourage germination. And that's indoors, somewhat more controlled that wintersowing outside. Outdoors the containers are at the whims of Mother Nature and weather changes for cold and wet to dry and windy, hot and sunny. Some kind of lid does make the humidity somewhat more easily controlled.

In spring, after a fair amout of germination, I open the top at the hinge, keep it that way as long as weather is warm. In case of a frost, I flip it closed again. A greenhouse, if you will.

Karen

for corralling containers .... i use card board boxes.

they will take a beating over the months, but then in the Fall, i bury them -- lasagna style, in hopes for a bedder new bed the following year. this was my first year burying the cardboard... so i hope it works.

I'm not a flower grower; and (except for planting my garlic & shallots in November) not a winter sower. But I have started vegetable seeds indoors in about 14 countries over a period of almost 50 years. Ocassionally, I have 'covered' the seeded pots, but only to keep the soil moist and limit the need to water. "Humidity" is never the issue.
Now, as I understand this "winter sowing" thing, the main reasons for doing it in pots rather than directly in the ground are:
1. Directly seeded seeds might be eaten by birds or various rodents
2. Directly seeded seeds might get moved around by rain/frost/etc.
3. Directly seeded seeds might not be where we want them to grow in the Spring/Summer

There are, of course, easy ways to get around #1. To deal with #3, generations of gardeners have relied on the coldframe or on specially prepared and set aside "seeding beds". Given the widespread production of winter wheat and other "winter sown" commercial crops, I suspect that concern #2 is based more on "concern" than "practice".

I am going to try this WS thing this year because, although I have never been a flower gardener, by the grace of new friends on DG, I find myself with a surfeit of flower seeds while needing time to prepare beds for whatever germinates.

kqcrna's point about Spring frost protection is a good one, however.
And, is there any chance that kqcrna could reveal a name that is more easily typeable? I am working with a French keyboard, trying to type US English, ans something like "Kate" would be so much easier for these old fingers!

JIm -- some of us call her Karen. *wink*

I always try to sign my name! I did in the above posts, too! Look above in this thread.

My name is Karen.

I realize that kqcrna is kind of odd, but it's something I've used in my profession for a long time and it kind of stuck with me.
My initials are KQ.
By profession, I'm a CRNA.

I then carried it over with me when I started using internet forums some years ago, and I use it on several forums. Many of the folks I associate with also frequent the same forums, so this way everyone knows I am one and the same.

But, anyway, I'm Karen.

OK. Hi Karen. I'm Jim. Sorry if I missed your signature earlier!

Jim

Hi, Jim.

You two are too funny. Jim - where are do you hail from originally? The humidity I refer to is more when the warmer weather comes and keeps the containers from drying out too quickly. At least that is what I have been experiencing. Of course, it might not matter and I could probably get away without any cover. You also caught onto the frost protection as well. When I originally started w/s'ing, [this will be my fourth year] I had learned from a website that focused on the process. The author of that site had everything covered and vented, both top and bottom. Since I've had success with that process so far, I haven't strayed too far off the path. I am not adverse to change if I get a positive result. Thanks for the suggestions.

Anita

CapeCod; A C.R.N.A. is a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist. I put people to sleep for surgery. My brother says it sounds more like a religion :-)

Anita: I suspect that you and I originally learned about WSing from the same website(s). In other words, Trudi's method. I followed that WSing forum regularly and took note of things that the veteran wintersowers did, and the advice they offered. Most seemed to perfer milk jugs, so that's what I used most. Though I tried different containers, (jugs, shallow deli containers, peat pots, paper pots, cups, I tried them all!) I had the same results reported by most veterans: Milk jugs were most successful. I don't do much of the others anymore; I pretty much stick to the gallon jugs. Usually have a few 2 liters and 1/2 gallons, too, but no more peat pots, paper pots, deli containers,.....

A few of my containers first year

But even that year, I used mostly jugs

Karen