COYOTES ... free ranging danger

This morning I found my Game Fowl hen whose been brooding 4 of my precious little guinea fowl keets; 1 Buff, 1 Platinum, 2 Pearl .... is short 1 Buff guinea keet. She's also chewed up on her backside ... missing a bunch of feathers and limping slightly. Only a coyote could snatch a month old guinea keet and still manage to wound the hen to this extent in one swift attack. I'm a bit sad. Mostly aggravated at the hen for walking so far off. The down side to having the rather lush and beautiful hop field only 15 to 100 ft from our driveway is coyotes use the hop vines as a means of hiding their activity and getting very close to the poultry without being detected.

Now that the dust has settled ... the hen is sticking close to the house ... way inside our perimeter fence line by 60 to 200 ft. She's in digging around in the gardens ... like1 ft from the wall of the house.

Kelly in Moxee

My sympathies. Those things scare the willies out of me. We can hear them howling at night. I'm worried that this winter when food is scarce they'll come hunting for my goats. We've got electric fencing around them in addition to welded fencing. We've got the dog but he's young though big. I'm hoping his scent and noise will deter them just enough.

MollyD

Molly,

They're off in the distance every night howling. Its kinda neat to hear but when they eat my 1 and only Buff guinea ... its really quite disappointing. I'll get another Buff guinea next spring and a few other colors. I've got 25 potential broody hens in our flock of Game Fowl chickens. Its just a matter of getting the guinea eggs under the hens and tossing out enough feed to keep them closer to the farm and away from the coyotes. There's a fine line between letting them free range. The further out they go ... the more vulnerable they are to predation. I have to toss more feed ($$$) to keep them nearer. Next year will be better ... we'll have 1 more fence between us and the hop field and a far east border fence. The coyotes will only be able to get the chickens who fly over the 6 ft woven wire fence. I'm also planning for a remote controlled swinging gate out on the highway. Once we have the gate and the fence along the east boundary ... the coyotes will really have to work to get access to our land. Our new fence will stop the east west wandering of coyotes along the stream and push them 1/2 mile north or south .... out along a road or the highway (where they don't like to be). Kelly in Moxee

Molly--when I lived in Victor they told us the NY coyotes were larger than the western ones--possibly through hybridization with Grey Wolves as they came down through Canada. Have you heard anything about this?

The coyotes around here are quite small--but totally comfortable with humans. Which makes them a lot more dangerous to pets and livestock.

oh, Kelly, so sorry!

tf

Catscan our coyotes are larger but it's not due to crossing with wolves. It's because they're a different variation (or sub-species). They're as big as a wolf here. They're also getting very brazen letting themselves be seen in daylight. Use to be they would hide and only come out at night but now they don't seem to care about that. Like yours they're becoming accustom to people and have taken livestock and pet dogs.

Kelly it's frustrating to have to spend the dollars keeping our animals safe but what can you do? The coyotes are a part of the natural world surrounding us. We want to live where we can have these animals and that is the price we pay. Not that I like it!

MollyD

TamaraFaye,

I was mentioning to my son that I'd be half a peeved if one of the 2 Platinum keets had been taken. I've got 3 of the Platinum guineas now and thanks to the coyote ... zilch in the Buff color ...... raaaats

Kelly in Moxee

Molly--I looked it up and it seems the status of the eastern coyote is even more complex than I'd heard. Like you said, there is an eastern subspecies--and evidence of its hybridization with....the nearly extinct red wolf! Really an interesting article about what the original Colonial "wolf" might have been--and how to tell whether you're looking at a wolf or a coyote by the "look in their eyes". Neato.

http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=2026

((((shudder))))

Kelly, every one i loose seems to be my favorite... i know whatcha mean...

Thanks Catscan. That was a very interesting read. Sounds like the hybridizing occurred a long time ago in human terms (over 100 years).

I've seen these coyotes and no way do they come in at 39 pounds! More like 50 to 60 pounds on the ones I've seen. Probably adult males. Now I know they keep saying wolves aren't in NYS, that they're all up in Canada (like they're going to respect a political boundary!!) but one time I did see one down here. It was totally different from the coyotes I had seen. Moved different. This was in full daylight and it plain did not care it was being seen crossing the road. This thing was much bigger than the coyotes too.
I sure don't want my dog tangling with one of our coyotes.

MollyD

We're dealing with smallish coyotes here. They're twice the size of a fox and unmistakable as far as recognizing them. They are quite timid but if the people are not about they're quite active.

Kelly in Moxee

That sure is small Kelly. I don't know if that would be an improvement over what we've got here or not. As I said our coyotes are moving towards being out and about during the daytime. As humans encroach on their areas they seem to loose that timidness.

MollyD

Molly--our coyotes are small here too--but there are increasing reports that they have started to hunt in packs--hitherto unknown in the western coyote. Apparently they normally hunt as a mated pair. Pack hunting may be because there is enough uncontested food since the removal of the wolf from this area--so the coyotes are able to maintain a larger population in a smaller geographic area. Less need to disperse. It certainly makes them more dangerous to livestock. Crafty beasts.

The other change-- diurnal hunting--is apparently their normal behavior. Nocturnal hunting was a response to human encroachment and eradication programs. It makes me feel a bit better about seeing them out during the day--I use to think it might be because they were rabid. They are amazingly adaptable--like raccoons and crows...and humans!

I wouldn't want my dogs tangling with your coyotes either!

Not to sound ickie, we also have a coyote problem. My brother came to stay with me and started "marking" our property perimeter. He fills a jug with his urine and pours it on the perimeter. I have 8 pitbulls and it seemed to entice the coyotes more than anything. My vet told me they are inbreeding now with stray dogs ta boot. The human urine works pretty good.On the pasture side that is not "urine protected" we still have a problem here and there. Black bear can't be stopped, tho.

I live in the Everglades where critters flourish and like to reap havoc on us. Otters here cause as much damage as coyotes but aren't as aloof.

cyberageous I don't know about down your way but here the coyotes eat the dogs, not breed with them! Everglades must be one tough place to raise chickens. Hats off to you!

Catscan they're doing both pack and individual hunting here. Opportunistic feeders. Even though they're a problem for livestock I wouldn't want to see them all gone since they help to keep the population of rabbits and other vermin down. Without the coyote the population of those would increase and cause a lot of damage to crops. We need some, just not as many as we now have.

MollyD

Keep in mind Molly, I run a pack. 6 to 8 pitbulls work together. I have no idea if the coyotes were to hit me- first I think my dogs would pack and fight but then if there was a stray "romeo" that come back for my girls--who knows. I do have 2 males that are huge and protective. Actually, 1 is huge, the other is in training. Darius (the dog, named after my mentor) is 170 lb pit and ready to work; my other male is (regretfully) very ambitiously ready to fight the enemy but young. I would prefer that they bark, run to the house and I will shoot a few rounds off the porch and chase off "whatever"....yeah in an ideal world. My girls are "sporting". In the pit world, the girls go in a moving circle around the target and snap at it. It gives the "kill dog" a chance to strie. The kinda freaks me out. I hope that will give me time to grab a gun. I never taught them that. I guess it's natural. We are old hippy types. We only kill when we need food. We call the dogs off.

Hey how did I get off on this tangent!

Things are grea here We have standing water but hey, we are the "Glades".

Molly I have no idea how you feel about it but have you thought about raising rabbits for meat and $?

Our coyotes are large here also. They run the size of a large german shepard. My DH was leaving for work the other morn at 2:30 and the motion light came on by the chicken coop. There was a large coyote strolling around checking everything out. By the time he grabbed the gun, the coyote had taken off.
We've had encounters during the day and they are very brazen. My father was on the tractor and one came within 50' of him. It was hunting a woodchuck-successfully I might add. We had a big woodchuck problem last year but I've only seen one this year so the coyotes have been cleaning them out.
We hear them howling at night too. When they bring a deer down, the yipping and howling makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

cyberageous no way do I want to raise rabbits ^_^ ! We already raise chickens and ducks and geese and goats for meat. That's enough for me to take care of. LOL

Yesterday evening I grabbed a rooster that's been hitting on my ducks. He wants to romance them if you get my drift. Things like that keep me busy all day long! I've got him isolated for now. We're going to try and see if he can live with my does till he puts on more weight. He's still too bony to kill and get anything out of it. Hate to waste his life like that.

Sue their howling creeps me out too. They sound like a horror film!

MollyD

Man, MollyD! You sound like we ought to be neighbors! I just lost my rooster. He just dropped dead. I keep them in a huge critter-proof 15 X 15 cage with about a 20' roof. That connects to their chicken coup. In the beginning, we had a bear tear up the cage and dismember 27 chickens. I hear they are vegetarians but the local wildlife dude said the power of the damage could be nothing but a bear. A man with a claw hammer couldn't tear the wire up like it was.

The other critter problem here is otters but my lead dog's best friend is an otter (go figure). I think they have an agreement.

We used to have to hot wire the chicken cou but not this year. We also raise rabbits and have a 20' X 30" rabbit room and have no critter problem.

Now wanna know why?

This is icky but it works.... Also a dog trainer told me so also......
My brother urinates in gallon milk jugs. When he has a few he pours it on the perimeter of where we need protection from critters. It keeps them out!

Well whatever safes our livestock! But yeah it does sound icky! LOL

Bears do eat meat. They are omnivorous. That is they'll eat everything same as we do.

My neighbors across the road might want to switch places ^_^. Since we got the animals I think the noises bother them some. How do you tell a goat to stop hollering? They don't understand things like that. Same with the poultry.

MollyD

you could try a quiet radio out with the animals. it sound sliek humans are around and quiets the noisy ones some. plus some predators are deterred by that.

urine keeps rabbits away, so perhaps other predators. though i know of one person with a nighttime video camera who caught photos of three adult coons peeing where he had peed...

TF,

I've read that what you described is common behavior for more than just raccoons.

Kelly in Moxee

yeah, i figure it works for prey, not predators... i used to put out male urine and add a little blood mmeal when we were overrun with rabbits, and it sure kept them away from my garden!

i am thinking the radio and the lights i often leave on are helping keep critters safe. there are a few that don't have a roof over their pens. Jaco hte Giant rooster is helping too. he wore the feathers off the front side of his wings jumping and attacking his gate at ngith...

When I was about 10 years old(I'm not saying how long ago it was!!), we had a raccoon eating our corn just when it would be ready to pick. So my Dad put a radio outside in the garden and played it at night. I loved it! It was on a great station so I got to listen to the radio when everyone was asleep. Unfortunetly it didn't keep out the raccoon! Hav-a-hart trap didn't work either; the only thing we caught was a very, very angry possum! Have you ever seen one of them critters up close with that toothy 'grin'?!

Sue

its pretty tricky business getting corn before a coon LOL

Too true!

I love the motion lights I think it does help deter and is absolutely great when you hear something and the light is on to help you see what's up. I saw a motion detector on a sprinkler in a magazine a few years back. A hose was attatched to this device which was mounted on a short pole and any motion would make a blast of water shoot out at the animal. It was supposed to startle off deer, ect.

LOL I'm finding it very easy to get corn. Just let someone else grow it and buy it from them ;-)

MollyD

This message was edited Sep 4, 2008 5:58 PM

lol!

If we had coons here ... I'd toss in the towel ... no veggie garden for sure ... and maybe even no poultry. Having to electrically wire the perimeter fence ... a real pain ... and then all those zaps to me or the kids or wife.

Kelly in Moxee

As odd as it sounds, I like the urine idea. At the very least it'll let them know they're in something else's territory. It's sort of gross to think about, but would increasing the meat in your diet help them perceive you as a predatory animal? My medical knowledge is iffy, so...

(I haven't posted in a while, and now I can't find the threads I've been following -- good thing this one's interesting!)

Glad you're back KB

I think we should listen to KB--s/he sounds very predatory.

Yes, the man urine works. It really cut down on menacing critters.
Now, after many power surges, our big "street lights" are out. The lights had helped keep out the critters.

We also keep a radio on. We do it to "home in" the dogs. I don't know if it really helps but I keep the noise going because my dogs keep escaping and wandering in the "Glades. I get scared that they can't find their way home. We are all swamps- I don't know if they can follow their scent back home. The radio also keeps the rabbitry calm.

Kissybear, do you have dogs? Glad you're posting. Everyone has valuable ideas, if not support.

Photo- one good thing- coons don't stand a chance and they have their table set for my bunnies. I have a chow/pit mix that tangled with a coon and it almost took out her tongue. It healed but is distorted.

cyberageous,

You might be consider the possibility of someone hurting your dogs when they're not at home. If they roam off your property ... it means on they're on somebody's land ... not yours. In our county ... loose dogs out in the farmland get shot and seldom return home. Food for thought. Your breeds are generally regarded as menaces. I know our neighbor kept losing his mostly pit bull mixed dogs. He kept replacing them ... till the DEA showed up and put him in prison. Few who care will see him again because he's in for another 5-6 yrs and he rented. Now we have new neighbors with Chihuahuas. No one gives a darn about them wandering. If they they do ... the coyotes will clean up the nuisance.

Kelly in Moxee

It sounds like cyber may not be in quite the same situation--I think I would worry more about them being attacked by the "all swamps" wildlife than some distant neighbor with livestock.

Have you seen the pythons and boas they are taking out of the glades now? Scary.

I love bull and bull mixes:0)

Catscan,

The AmStaff and Staffordshire Terrier dogs are beautiful. Many of these dogs due to selective breeding and training ... are naturally mean spirited and quite dangerous. I wouldn't have one. Like I said ... they don't last long here in farmland. I believe they've been made illegal in our county. A friend of mine ... whom I've known since I was age 7 ... we still meet for lunch a few times a year ... anyhow ... his step-dad was killed by 3 roaming Pit Bulls. The Seattle City Council will likely pass an ordinance to make the breed illegal within the next month or so. The public has had enough it would appear. As a general rule people who keep them are not bankers, lawyers, doctors, accountants ... its the street thugs, drug dealers or drug growers. Doesn't apply to everyone but most who have them are irresponsible members of the community and not upstanding decent prominent people.

Kelly in Moxee

Kelly,

The Staffordshire Terrier and the American Pit Bull are recognized by the American Kennel Club as "two highly distinct and different breeds. With over one hundred and fifty years separating them."
The American Staff is a happy, outgoing, stable and confident dog.Gentle and loving towards people. Good natured, amusing and extremely loyal. An affectionate family pet good with children and adults. Obedient, this dog wants nothing more than to please its master.This breed is one of the most courageous and intelligent of dogs.Devoted and highly protective this trustworthy breed is an excelent dog for children. If provoked and he feels his loved ones are in danger he will sacrifice his life for his master.
What a shame people took some of these wonderfull dogs and through breeding and rough treatment twisted these fine qualities into what is now known as the American PIT Bull. Who bears no resemblance to the fine breed the American Staffordshire Terrier.
Yes the Pit Bull is being outlawed in many areas as it should be. The Pit Bull has never had a decent place in society. What a shamefull waste of animal life. It really saddens me. To bad we cant just destoy the breeder and let the breed die a natural death.

It is ABSOLUTELY wrong to outlaw a breed of dog. Pitbulls have been around for a very long time and have LONG been regarded as loyal, great with kids, and hardworking. True, a select group of people have bred and raised them to be aggressive towards other dogs, and thus, apprehensive of the very animals that did this to them; people. I disagree with the passing of these discriminatory laws. Punish the people not the breed. Ignorant and over zealous politicians do this and it quite literally makes me want to puke! This is an example of when a decent education and some common sense would have done some good.

Patch,

It very well may be wrong the choice to outlaw ownership of specific dog breeds in localities. I don't care as those problems are outside of my community. I take care of my problems and let others take care of theirs. I DO know the 2 breeds AmStaff and Staffordshire are different and distinct. That is why I wrote out both names. Community standards vary from place to place. I do not to impose my opinions on anyone or any place. Opinions are just that ... and everyone has one. My opinion is there are far too many ignorant illiterate people on the earth ... but then I don't advocate building mass quantities of ovens and gas chambers. People can squawk about this or that is wrong but unless one will suggest viable solutions to problems ... maybe we should think over our position(s) on the subject(s). The deplorable truth is that the AVERAGE person walking down the street has an IQ slightly above moron and the standards of a drug addict. As far as I'm copncerned tobacco smkers who can't quite and alcohol drinkers who won't take a break from it periodically resemble drug addicts more than I'm comfortable with. The average person can't be trusted to be responsible to own a dog, raise a child or hold down a full time job or even cast a sober vote responsibly. All one has to do is look at the candidates running for the 2 major political parties to understand how unqualified the normal/average person is to carry out responsible decisions concerning anything ... let alone serve in a public office ... all of the 4 candidates are hideous examples of the worst of politics and none are qualified to be elected president or vice president. (THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC & I APOLOGIZE) McCaine may have credentials I trust but Obama is the worst type of panderer ... neither is worthy of my vote ... and I have extreme concern for all of us in the near future with either candidate in office. You can bet the subject of outlawing dog breed s in communities is not worth discussing as the laws are local community laws. It would take hundreds of years before the tens of thousands of communities pass legislation that would make a breed diminish. In other word the complaints against the laws are ridiculous since dog ownership is spread out all over the planet. Who should care if community X & Y outlaws a breed of dog if they don't reside inside that community. The breeds will NEVER be imperiled. Those communities have the right to decide for themselves. No one needs anyone from outside telling them how to live their lives. My feeling are that these problems exist due to far bigger reasons than a mean spirited dog. This country is comprised of a disturbingly high % of lawless criminal types. These people are not being dealt with in a manner to make them better ... their numbers and % of populace are increase daily. Societal problems need to be addressed and viable solutions determined. The problem with our American form of Democracy is that problems facing the public are being evaded and passed on to the next generation by an irresponsible electorate and and even more irresponsible public. Solutions require tough and often unpleasant consequences. The penitentiaries can not continue to be filled with more and more people ... unless the prison populace are turned into slaves. The average cost per day to keep criminals imprisoned is about $100. The % of people in prison is astounding and they're simply a revolving door between criminal activity and prison and more prisons are constructed daily. Kelly in Moxee

This message was edited Sep 10, 2008 11:06 AM

Kelly,
APPLAUSE!!!!!,(your are correct on every point). Let my love of my carefully bred raised and shown Staffs cloud my thoughts.
How about those dang coyotes!