NUTRITION 101 Q&A

Kathy, Looking at your screen name.. do you spin? Or just raise fiber, or none of the above..lol

Hi Kathy. Mesquite seems to be an important food source for a lot of animals--including wild turkeys I would think it is very good for chickens. Here is a discussion of its nutritional value.

IMPORTANCE TO LIVESTOCK AND WILDLIFE:
The fruit of honey mesquite is valuable forage for livestock and wildlife. Cattle, horses, domestic sheep and goats, mules, and burros eat large quantities of the ripe fruit during summer and fall [43,64]. Livestock often remove the fruit as high on the tree as they can reach and eat fallen pods from the ground [18]. Though seeds are high in protein little is digested and many pass through livestock digestive tracts intact and viable [64]. Livestock do not consume the foliage to any great extent [115]. Foliage consumption is high only during drought years, especially in the early spring when other forage is sparse [43,68,100]. Most livestock consume mesquite (Prosopis spp.) flowers when available [115]. In some areas of Mexico, mesquite beans are collected, ground, and fed to cattle [48]. Because of its abundance in Texas, honey mesquite wood has been proposed as a roughage source for ruminants. Preliminary research indicates that cattle weight gains are satisfactory when ozone or sulfur dioxide is used to increase cellulose digestibility of honey mesquite woodchips used as supplemental feed [36,143].
The fruit crop of honey mesquite is quite predictable, annually providing an abundant and nutritious food source for numerous wildlife species upon ripening in July and August [103]. Honey mesquite seeds form an important part of the diet of mice, kangaroo rats, woodrats, chipmunks, ground squirrels, rock squirrels, cottontail, skunks, quail, doves, ravens, the black-tailed prairie dog, black-tailed jackrabbit, porcupine, raccoon, coyote, collared peccary, white-tailed deer, mule deer, wild turkey, and mallard [1,23,43,73,176,177,179]. Many species of small rodents derive a large portion of their diet from mesquite seeds [1,48]. On the Jornada Experimental Range, these animals frequently store whole beans of western honey mesquite in dens or caches. Honey mesquite beans formed the bulk of stored food [185]. Mesquite flowers are eaten by numerous bird species [160]. Many species of quail eat mesquite buds and flowers in the spring, and seeds during the fall and winter [176]. Mesquite seeds often comprise 10 to 25% of the Gambel's and scaled quails' diets [46,48]. In a southwestern Texas study, honey mesquite fruit comprised 14.9% of the white-tailed deer summer diet, but deer use of any honey mesquite parts during the rest of the year was minimal [177].

Mesquite browse is generally not a very important wildlife food source. Wild turkeys, round-tailed ground squirrels, cottontails, and woodrats consume some leaves [23,73]. Jackrabbits consume large amounts of honey mesquite. In southwestern Texas, honey mesquite (primarily leaves) comprised 11% and 19.9% of black-tailed jackrabbit diet during winter and spring [177]. On the Jornada Experimental Range near Las Cruces, New Mexico, jackrabbits often crop honey mesquite leaves, buds, and bark as high as they can reach [180]. In this study, honey mesquite was 56% of the black-tailed jackrabbit diet. Locally, mule deer consume large quantities of honey mesquite foliage, but this may reflect a scarcity of other browse rather than a preference for honey mesquite [157].

Along the lower Colorado River on the border of southern California, western honey mesquite is often infested with mesquite mistletoe (Phoradendron californicum). Western honey mesquite communities often attract large numbers of birds that feed on mistletoe fruit [157].

PALATABILITY:
The sweet, nutritious seed pods of honey mesquite are highly palatable to all types of livestock and to numerous small and large wildlife species. For both livestock and wildlife, the palatability of leaves and twigs is relatively low. Livestock browse small amounts of leaves and twigs as they green up in the spring, but honey mesquite browse is otherwise seldom eaten [43,100]. Leaf consumption may increase during drought years when other forage is lacking or following a killing frost in the fall [64,68].

NUTRITIONAL VALUE:
The sweet-tasting pods of honey mesquite are nutritious. The fruit's pericarp is high in sugars and the seeds contain large amounts of protein. However, seeds are largely indigestible, and many pass through large mammals' digestive tracts intact and viable [64]. Honey mesquite fruit provide a good source of minerals for herbivores [191]. Although not consumed by livestock or wildlife to any great extent, the leaves are high in protein and contain large amounts of nitrogen [91,113].
Nutritional content of honey mesquite fruit collected near College Station, Texas is presented below [19]:

N (%) Crude protein (%) Fat (%) Fiber (%) Ash (%) Total sugars (%)
Seeds 5.08 31.19 4.32 6.99 3.42 ----
Pericarp 1.28 6.81 2.79 26.57 3.44 31.6
Entire pod 1.79 9.38 2.66 21.68 3.27 26.4


Ca (%) Mg (%) Na (%) K (%) Cu (ppm) Zn (ppm) Mn (ppm) Fe (ppm)
Seed 0.28 0.37 0.04 0.70 16.1 74.1 23.0 94.2
Pericarp 0.42 0.06 0.08 1.03 3.1 9.9 6.1 18.2
Whole pod 0.30 0.08 0.09 1.02 4.6 18.8 8.4 32.4

Nutritional information concerning western honey mesquite fruit collected in California is presented below [18,103]:

Moisture (%) Protein (%) Fiber (%) Ash (%) Sugar (%)
Entire pod 2.2 14.0 20.0 3.4 34.0
Entire pod - 9.5 - - 31.0
Pericarp 8.3 5.0 23.0 - 41.0

Nutritional information concerning honey mesquite leaves and twigs collected from the Edwards Plateau region of Texas is presented below [91]:

Date Water (%) Ash (%) Cell wall (%) P (%) Protein (%) Digestible organic matter (%)
Leaves April 13 74 7 25 0.46 32 68
Leaves May 24 67 6 35 0.22 26 58
Leaves and twigs June 28 52 4 47 0.08 16 44

So, corn in place of milo or millet? What is non-gmo?

Thanks for the great info Catscan! & Fiberholic for suggesting. More studying (aka homework) for me I fear! Good thing I always like to learn something new, huh?

Cheryl ~ Pea

GMO=genetically modified organism. Like "Roundup Ready" Soybeans. So a non-GMO is a naturally occuring life-form that hasn't been altered through genetic engineering.

Frans, yes I spin, and weave, and knit, and felt, and raise a little green cotton for my own use. Used to raise sheep in a previous lifetime but I gave it up for spare time.
thanks for all the info, Catscan. Sounds almost like I'd need to shell the beans and find some way to break them up. I'll have to think on that.

Just one of the nasty aspects of gmo seed (pardon me for getting off topic but if you're a gardener, it's important) is they're usually sterile after that first generation. Meaning, if you save seeds, don't bother. Mainly, though, remember: you are what you eat.

And right now most of us are GMO. Yippee. Greeen acres is the place to be...

okay I have a question :)

when I got my chicks the man at the store said to feed them chick start for 6 weeks, then to move them up to another product. today, I went to a different feed store and asked what I was supposed to move them up to...and she sold me some chick scratch...which looks like cracked corn...just smaller pieces. she said to give them this stuff til they are a year old...then move them up to hen scratch...which also looked like cracked corn...
dont they need something else? they had layer crumble there....and layer mash?

I wouldn't feed chick feed till they're one! That's way too old to wait for adult feed. Mostly you move them to adult feeds when they're around 16 to 20 weeks old.
Be careful about believing clerks in stores. Now days many of them don't have a clue about what they're selling so they just make things up as they go along. A few do know but they're in a minority.

MollyD

I feed Nutrena brand chick starter right now and I think it says to feed that to 18 weeks. It says on the bag. Then I will switch to the hen pellets. I use Layena. I use scratch for treats only.

I'm sure the ladies can answer better than I! But I was wondering what nutritional info is on the tag?
I feed out chick starter then chick grower then onto layer.

I also have a question: I'm starting to harvest pumpkins(made a pie yesterday ahem-I have to confess I had a piece for breakfast so that ought to tell you about my nutritional intake!) Anyway, the type of pumpkin I grew has hulless seeds. Can I feed these to the chickens? I finely chopped up the stringy pulp and feed out some of that-they loved it!

Sue ☺

oh sue... tf is gonna send you off to the recipie queen... btw, I need a pumkin... already put my orders in to family for all old pumkins this year.. lol, they think since I started with the animals I have done gone over the edge!

You know your over the edge when your at a friends and pass a doggie bag around the table and ask for everyones corncob... lol

1AnjL, they definitely should have starter--never just scratch. Like everyone said, scratch is a treat, but definitely not nutritionally complete. I would stay clear of any advice from the second feed store. It would be like someone telling you your human baby could live on corn meal mush until it was 10 and then you should move it up to corn on the cob. If you want them to eat pelleted food (less waste) start them as early as you can--mine are still turning up their beaks at it and demanding mash. Spoiled rotten broody beasts.

Sue,

I'm impressed! Veggies for breakfast LOL ;-)
I haven't worried about seeds with mine. I just chop the pieces up so I can spread the goodies around and toss them over the fence. They just go mad for anything with a rind to it.

MollyD

1AnjL,
Week 1-2, Game Bird Starter crumbles 28%-30% Protien
Week 2-8, Chick Starter crumbles 20% Protien
Week 8-4 1/2 months Grower Ration 18%-20% protien
4 1/2 months... Complete Layer Ration
To switch feeds buy one more week supply (by the pound). if you buy 50# Game Bird starter then purchase 50#Chick Starter and mix. Gradualy reduce amount of old food until gone over a two week period.
Chicken scratch is not chicken food it was made for flocks raised the way great grandma raised ours. Throw it out in the morning to get them pecking and scratching and warmed up(hence the name).

Thanks for the GMO info Catscan! Gonna need to look at the tags a bit closer, although most of the grains I was buying, I believe were just 'grains'. Start out well, then stop checking - just buy.

Still have one more question - although I prefer not to buy corn and would rather give them the corn they get sparingly. Would the corn be in place of Milo or Millet?

Finding high prices here, and special order in most cases - or they don't carry it at all. Still want to check with EXCEL and some of the other main grain sources in the area. They are open the same ours I work, so time off work to get.

Thanks!
Cheryl ~ Pea

thank you all for the wonderful help! been gone a few days... and just now catching up!

the problem with feed store #2 is that they are just a few blocks from my home (convenient) but all their food is in bulk....in big ole bins. so there were no 'instructions' on the bags... etc.

so that leads to my next question... is it better to buy in bags (fresher) or is bulk okay?

I think I'll just take a drive over to store #1 and buy what they have there... I am sure the clerk there told me they need to be moved up at 6-8 weeks... so they seemed to know what they were talking ablout! lol! thats also the same place where I bought the chicks.
Store #2 is more a a 'pet feed store'
store #1 was a livestock feed store.

fereal thank you for that information on the scratch. I was at a feed store and saw that but couldn't find out how it differed from the more expensive feed I was using. Glad I didn't buy it!

MollyD

hi, wow, i been away from this thread too long... actually i was waiting itll i had time to type up the new prices, but that was last week, and i bet the prices went up again. what would you all think of a thread just to track feed prices?

thanks catscan for the mesquite bean info, and thanks to fereal for a bried and thorough answer, welcome! welcome also to fiberholic!

sue, there is a link above about a fall dewormer, pumpkin seeds are a part of that, check it out! sure they can have the hullless seeds, more protein less fiber, a sure treat with little work involved LOL

bridigily, the tag will never say GMO. also, you better not be caught palnting a seed from a GMO plant, it is considered stealing their intellectual property. farmers have been imprisoned for GMO plants accidentally drifting and growing on their property!!!

very little nutritional info is on the feed tags, unfortunately. it will show fat, fiber, and protein. and one other, can't recall [not enough coffee today]. i had to search for nutritional info through human sources of grain. so for milo i just had to go on what i know about it from college [can't recall much].

as far as i know, corn could replace the millet or milo in the above formula.

i always prefer bagged grain. if bagged properly, it should be free of any bugs, fresh, and cleaned. dust is something you really don't want to pay for by the pound LOL.

whenever you find bugs in grains, it is likely old and losing its nutritional value. make them take it back and replace or refund...

frans, it is called a "chickie bag" ;-)

catscan's picky chicks are just one fine example of how important it is to start proper nutrition early, and also teaching them what KINDS of things to eat. for instance a local man recently purchased a pullet from me, and was amazed that she prefers weeds over his city grass... eating habits start young!

tf

I was a good mommy to the extent that all my chickies eat grass, bugs, weeds and windfall fruit. They also love crimped oats--at first they preferred them to scratch--but right now Riley the Silkie, in particular, is a scratch-aholic and the others are showing signs of preferring it too. I am thinking of cutting off their scratch habit as soon as I run out. I remember my Tennessee Great Aunt Maddie giving her chickens scratch--but I had never heard it was to get them up and moving. Makes sense. Corn was cheap and plentiful and chickens love it.......I love candy and fatty meat. And there is no one around to stop me........Bwaahaaahaaa!

pass the chocolate...NOW

How did you know chocolate was involved? I only said "candy". Is their someone watching me? CF? CF--are you there? (Paranoid twitching).

I don't really understand all the references to additions to feed {milo} Ive been raiseing bantams for 7 years and feed purina chick starter until about 3 months old then give half starter and Purina laying crumbles for 2 weeks then switch to layer only. I have never supplimented my birds food with anything and feed scratch grains only in the colder months and i don't use heat lamps on grown birds.
I see no reason for such over exspense on chicken feed when it supplys all they need. My birds plummege is glossy and full and they lay and produce very strong young. Most of the people i know that show birds actually follow this same feeding practice.
I wrote this for the ones who are worried thier not feeding thier birds correctly and who can't afford exspensive extras to let them know it's okay and your birds will be fine so don't worry enjoy your birds.


This message was edited Feb 21, 2009 10:19 AM

"what would you all think of a thread just to track feed prices?"

Only problem with this tf is that there is such a wide variety in prices even within the same state never mind different regions of the country.

MollyD

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This message was edited Sep 4, 2008 2:19 PM

Good Morning! I would Like To say In Ga, I get my feed from Greensouth it's a feed/tracter place.
Chick Starter is $7.81 #25lb bag and laying crumbles are $13.75 #50lb Bag it has been steadly on the rise this past year. Scratch grains are $6.75 #25lb Bag.
My bird seed for my pigeons and Doves that i mix myself #50lb bag at walmart is $14.97 and i add a #7 bag of safflower at $8.97 and allso buy red grit in #50lb bag at $16.00
I have 75 Chickens and buy feed about every 2 weeks My birds eat 57lbs in about 2 and a half weeks.
I don't know the price of game bird but pigeon feed is over $15 a #50lb Bag. My feed needs fluctuate according to how many chickens/birds i breed,hatch,sell,etc.

Harmonyplace, I hear what you are saying and understand your concern that we may be unduly scaring new chicken owners into thinking they HAVE to feed this way to be doing the right thing for their birds. Actually, the history of this thread should explain itself, tf mixes her own food and it was requested of her to explain to us why she feeds the way she does.. and at what cost and benefit... with that said, we do all have an opinion and we have each shared that opinion, It does not make any of us right or wrong.. none of us are spending anymore than we choose to spend and in fact are trying to cut as much as possible yet still receive from our animals as much as possible.

I also do not have to feed $30 a 50# bag of nutra-max dog food with a 82% utilizability rate, which equals less waste for me to clean up, a healthier dog, no vet bills, a solid working dog and last but definitly not least, little waste.. what goes in is being used so I use less which equals.. a much cheaper food!

So yes, you are right.. our forfathers left the chickens out in the yard to scavange for food, throwing scratch in the am to get them moving, then they were on their own.. heck they didn't even seclude them and withhold feed before processing.

I guess as long as you are happy with your flock.. you enjoy what you are doing and it works for you.. by all means keep doing it..

We are just here because we want to know how the chicken fairy does it!

My birds are total free range they do get put up at night. I thought the free range would be cheaper on me. Nope actually it is costing just as much, I still HAVE to feed them, they always act hungry. Maybe they think when I am there they get fed. But that is not always true. I get flocked when I go out to them.

Thanks for the comment Fran Sorry if i offended didn't mean too!

That's interesting, luvs2garden2000, cuz mine are costing way less. I only have 5 pullets but I'm still trying to use up the 2nd 25#bag of chick grower which I bought in June. They are way happier foraging. I always have food available for them, but they choose to forage. I've started mixing the lay ration with the grower cuz they should be starting to lay in the next couple of weeks, but they are eating way less purchased feed that our hens did in a previous lifetime when we kept them penned. And they appear to be healthy and happy so I'm not gonna worry about it. They loves those grasshoppers and I'm loving them eating them up.
'Sides that it's great entertainment to watch.

They love to forage and all, they just love my mater plants. But they just act hungry all the time, they have feed in their feed. Maybe they associate me with treats. Maybe I did a boo boo by giving them treats all the time and then when I dont have any they are looking for it.

Mine are eating much less with all their foraging too. It probably depends on what their forage is and what they are doing with it. Mine have nothing to fear, tons of grass, weeds, bugs and fruit. They come running to see what I have for them--but if it is not special enough they wander off after pecking just enough not to offend me. They have lovely manners.

yes L2G2, they do associate you with food. but also consider they are all VERY young, and nee dsupplementation. it is still better than locking them all up, think of all tthe poo you would have to clean up. and their grassy pen would be mud by now, and the rest of your land overrun with weeds and bugs...

start teaching them that you don't always have treats. just go out and pet them etc... they can't help but love their ChickenMama

frans i learned that about dog food years ago. can't convince DH to get good cat food, but he does compromise and get better cat food with the food coloring and additives, and they are well fed for "barn cats".

harmony, no offense taken, i value all you have to offer. i wish i had more gentic info for you, but i know SUZE and CATSCAN has link posted in here somewhere. you can see my self blue in the My Chicks Pics thread... i can tell you what breeding stock he came from in case you are interested in eggs from them.

we need more links in the "bird link thread" grownut started...

i think eveyrone should know i not only spoil my chickens, i also make them free range. they always see me and think i will feed them, but when they see i don't have treats they get back to work chasing bugs, plucking weeds, and taking dust baths... i am raising them for production of eggs, meat, and hatching eggs, and also want them to have the most free and humane life possible, and as long as possible. most of the breeds i raise are on the list of endangered antiquity breeds, AKA Heritage Poultry. you can see the list at www.albc-usa.org and join the organization

still my way of feeding mixed grains is more natural and saves me money. not only am i assured there are no added preservatives, or corn by products, or those animal slaughter by products, also no added vitamins that are dervied from who-knows-what, or any possible GM ingredients [that are not listed as such on the tag, not required in people or animal food]. their feed is what i put in, nothing extra. plus what they forage...

the Organic Standards Act requires that animals used for Organic production be fed food that has NO GM ingredients. it does NOT require them to eat only Organically Grown feed, as that is difficult to find and would be cost prohibitive. I call what i do nautrally grown, which adheres to the OSA regulations without paying the large fee for the label and inspection. and acutally i am not sure WHEN i can call them natural again, till the source of organophosphates is proven, and it is determeined IF it will go away in time, or is chronic...

now for the feed prices here from last week... i wrote down all i could from their price board...

Red Rosie ate some styrofoam pellets - she went on walkabout into the garage where some had fallen onto the floor. Is she going to die or suffer digestive failure or something?

Catscan should be right here. she has a thread [i'll look for it] where she expalined the different types of styrofoam, and why some is bad for them and some isn't... watch for neurological signs...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/865616/

Chickens and sstyrofoam

She ate the green fat S-shaped ones from packaging. Not blue board or meat trays or coffee cup type. They came with plants from Bluestone. They are not the cornstarch ones though.

Thanks TF for the kind words i thought i had gotten off on the wrong foot in my mouth. I didn't want that because i joined to help and get help {i say muffled by a foot}
I bow in your presence to know you have Indangered birds and are doing it the organic way.
I admire you! I myself treat my birds to things other than feed when we have watermelon so do the chickens and they eat it to the rind then eat the rind. Unwanted tomatoes are given too seems my DH can't plant just a couple plants he has to plant 7 and the chickens get the overflow.*Harmony*

My spoiled rotten chooks barely look twice at melons now--where I work they throw out all the melons they have taken the seeds from. I bring almost totally undamaged melons and watermelons. At first they went crazy--now they take their sweet time. Although eventually there is nothing but a paper thin rind left. Tomatoes remain popular. Brats!

Claire are those the ones that dissolve in water?

Harmony, i only wish i could do more for these chickens i have. They had an herb garden last year, but the ducks destroyed it...

so i started a duck habitat, but now i let the ducks out to free range from there...

had to fence in our "person" herb garden, but yesterday caught a GOAT in it, she ocudln resist the raised bed, and just pushed the wire panels apart. luckily she only ate one small flower and was starting ont he weed.

yes, i let weeds grow and pluck them just after they flower and toss them to the goats whenever theyu aren't out ranging... often the geese get them before i pick them!

have to admit i am getting hooked on non-Heritage birds like OEGs, Frizzles, Polish. CF got me good this year. never thought i would have POLISH!!! [never guessed i would marry one either lol]

tf