NUTRITION 101 Q&A

Claire have you had those goats tested by your vet? Those lumps could be CL. Read these pages for more information on what those goats may have http://fiascofarm.com/goats/cae.htm,http://fiascofarm.com/goats/milk_neck.htm
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/ ( I include both of these links since one can be confused with the other).

MollyD

Molly, I didn't know about that. I haven't even got the goats yet. We don't get them for a couple of weeks at least. I don't have a goat vet yet. Oh dear... all I know is that Jim said the lumps don't hurt them, but that sometimes they need lancing.

That sounds scary to me Claire! Last time someone said that to me it was about a goat with CL and that is very contagious to people!!
I would start looking around for a vet now because vets that a) will work with goats and b) know anything about them are very rare.

MollyD

Back to nutrition That link you put up for the things birds are not suppose to eat is a very interesting write up. Thanks Claire.

I am sure you will do the right thing for you and yours Claire.

i think that was Catscan's link...

claire, here is what i am doing to reduce the number of kids. we have four dairy goats. two are half sister, and are yearling Nubians. two are twins, and are two year old LaManchas, both kidded this year.

so i am milking both LMs. then i will breed one of the Nubians. when she starts milking i will breed the LM that frehsened first. that will keep two milking at all times. then give one LM a rest once the othe ris limking again. next breed the othe rNubian, and so on. we will always be prepared to sell them for show or pets or meat.

you can sometimes milk them for a couple or three years without rebreeding. if they are worth it to you, you can also let them dry up, as you have done, and give their bodies a break.

just be in control. don't let whoever you are breeding to try to breed all of them at once. You are NOT their kid factory.

also, based on what MD said, you may just be a temporary retirement home for some that just shouldn't be out in regular goat population. gotta be a reason these weren't taken by the place that took the kids, right? i mean, if they were in good health, and they were GOOD milkers [as opposed to "decent"], they could have been sold...

really scary about having something that transfers to humans... keep in mind these people seem desperate to give their aniamls a home. but the chickens you got WERE pretty feral...

[as for the goat fairy, she hangs out with cf a lot. think they walked out on the last guild meeting]

tf

They didn't want them to go to the place that took the kids because they wouldn't be "pets" there. Your ideas are great - we will have to wait until they are here and see how we can handle it I guess. If it is the CL, then they all would have been exposed, so I guess they can't ever be a "clean" herd. I'm trying to find more info on the transfer to human angle. So far coming up blank....I must be looking in the wrong places.

google "zoonosis" it si the study of disease transferrable to humans...

Wow--I'd never heard of CL in goats---it does sound manageable and you're right--you simply would have a closed herd that was not "clean". I would be interested in hearing about the human impact.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl2.shtml

I never heard of it transferring to humans but i did know if they have it you can lance them and doctor them up and get rid of it. Of course when you do lance do it in an area where they are not common to and wear gloves. So maybe.

It's very contagious to humans, dogs and horses. At this time it's not curable. Also if it reaches the internal organs it's fatal. Not something I'd want to chance myself!

MollyD

All the lit I can find says that human infections are very rare or uncommon. People seem to work with the animals and there seems to be an acceptance that they should not be routinely euthanized. But it does say that the ground can be infected for some considerable time if the abscess drains on to it.

If the older doe is infected and suffering (thin ewe disease in sheep) I would personally consider taking them--possibly euthanizing her and keep the rest as a closed flock--that is with the assumption that you weren't seriously interested in raising goats. The others might never be symptomatic. Not clear about the milk question--they say to remove the kid and raise it on formula if the mother is infected--but they also say it is not unthinkable to use an infected female goat as a breeder. Advise against using an infected sire--more likely to transmit through contact I guess. Suggest AE and say it doesn't appear to be carried by semen (unless testicles are involved) and that is purely theoretical.

I am a softy and not interested in serious breeding at this point--except maybe Nankins. Just sort of thinking things out on my own.....

off topic (well kinda) question here....

has anyone ever used goats milk in lieu of baby formula for an infant?

I'm asking because DD weaned DGS (7 mos old) from mommas milk to Goats milk instead of the sugar packed formula on the market. I'm both proud of her...but also scared cause I dont know about nutrients etc.

Just wondering if anyone else has done this with their goat milk :o) to kinda put grammys mind at rest :o)

I've heard that goat's milk is easier for infants to digest. If she is eating solid foods as well, I would think goat's milk would be better than supermarket cow's milk. "They" always say that cow's milk is meant for huge rapidly growing calves--human milk for smaller, slower growing human babies with big brains--not brawn.

yes, she did jut start introducing foods about 2 months ago. and she supplements with vitamins.
I just know that giving cows milk to infant under 12 mos is a BIG no-no... wasnt sure about goats milk. maybe the growth thing is the reason.
She is paying $3 per quart...and he drinks 1 1/2 quarts a day! she's gonna go broke real quick! lol!

1AnjL goats milk is perfectly safe for your grandson to drink assuming it's been collected under sanitary conditions. The reason cow's milk is frowned upon these days for infants isn't the growth thing. It's because it's hard for them to digest. Goat's milk is more easily digested and some people who are allergic to cow will tolerate goat's milk.
I suspect that your daughter chose goat's milk because so many cows now receive hormones through shots and feed that she didn't want getting into her child's food. Goats get shots too but not hormone ones.

MollyD

I think human milk is designed for accelerated brain growth vs accelerated body mass--which is one of the reasons they started suggesting cow milk was not ideal for human infants--supposedly the cow milk based baby formulas are modified to meet human needs. But the ease of digestion/hormone/antibiotic issue is huge.

I would be much happier feeding a baby clean goat milk than cow milk as now commercially produced. But I am very down on commercial dairies. The situation in CA is terrible. Not that the individual dairy owners are bad--but the huge operations are a nightmare.

1Angl --I know a few people who have switched to giving goats' milk rather than nursing when their babies didn't tolerate mothers' milk well. As far as I know it is supposed to be the best alternative. It's in a bunch of my old health books anyway.

Claire -Given how much time you have before you unmated does freshen, I think you have a good chance to scope out some potential homes. The extension office/4-H can be a very good resource both for placement and for breeding options. Most people, if you tell them you are trying to learn the ropes and let them explain, will be either willing to walk you through it or will give you some invaluable pointers and more connections in your area. The breeder we got our does from loaned us a buck to start with who was in need of temporary placement (a good buck, victim of a broken marriage) and helped us get our bearings. That sort of networking combined with the planning that TF was talking about and you might just be on your way... (You know I just realized that Tammy is diminutive for Tamara -can people be shot through the internet?:-)

1. vet
2. network and mentor
3. schedule and game plan
4. birthing and goat's milk yum
5. separation and placement

Any of you more experienced goaters out there??


This message was edited Aug 15, 2008 8:32 AM

grownut, .58 cal black powder ~ BANG!

pointing fingers or calling me Tammy, Tami, or Tammie, will get you shot!!!

i can udnerstnad misspelling like tamera, etc....

OK, everyone has been warned. i don't miss on the second shot LOL...

ut oh glad she loves me.

No worries Tam-Tam, we all love ya!

But you sent the chicken fairy after me, so I figure I can get away with Tam-Tam just once.

;-)

he he he I call her Tam all the time.

ooops, forgot to list Tam-Tam in the warning.... tf is safest...

just dusted a gal with Fairy Dust today. she has chickens, now she has a super JG trio for breeding! i think we spent two hours picking out the right pullets, she wanted tthe best natured ones.

anyhow, she said she used to go to tTHAT chicken forum, i told her to come here. so if someone signs up from Texas named Beverly, give her heck and tell her how ugly those Jersey Giants are LOL

tf

I am trying to learn the maximum right now so I'm on the www.omlet.us forum for Eglu owners and also the BYC forum to keep learning. I'm "ChooksinIowa" on there. But I like DG the best. ;-)

TF (see, I can play nice!!) do you have a contract with the chicken fairy? Are you taking payments under the table or something? I mean, how is it that you have the capacity to do all this dusting. Or maybe you ARE the chicken fairy...

Today Kelly bought some "starter-grower" feed because I asked him to get feed for the chicks. Is that OK for them? I read in another place that I can feed them that up to 20 weeks. Will that be OK? The big girls and the banties are on pellets but I don't know if the chicks are ready for that at only 4 weeks (or so). They like cheerios though.

Claire

Oh you can be sure we will

I think the starter/grower is fine. Mine were on starter/finisher-which I suspect is for broilers. But that was all the feed store carried and they did fine. Just as long as it says starter--and try to get it unmedicated, unless you are having cocci problems.

i knew i could count on you Tia!

Claire, I am NOT the cf, repeat after me "tf does not equal cf"... see the equation tf=cf just doen't add up, doesn it?

the chicks NEED starter, hold off on the cherrios for a few more weeks, too much added sugar and air...

now, IF the cf had a salary for me, you would bet i would be putting in for the highest paid position!!! need more money to feed more birds!!!

Do my 2 week old chicks need grit and if so is it the same as what I had bought for the big birds?

It's unmedicated. Problem is, none of mine were ever Mareks vaccinated. What should I do about that?

TF+C = TCF - T = CF

I think I can do that math.....

don't need grit till they are eating grains, and won't need it if they free range where ther is ddirt, rocks gravel, etc. they use it in their "craw" to girnd up the grains... also, you need to find pullet sized grit, ask for it "by name". pigeon grit is too big for chicks.

if you keep them strictly on starter crumble, then they don't need anything added to that...

tf

And by the way, TF, I think we've all heard of the term "Alias"

TF, a.k.a. CF

After all "T" rhymes with "C"

I think I begin to see the light...

oh okay thanks had given some to the bigs birds last winter when they wernt out as much free ranging.

Claire, is that the NEW math?

unmedicsated is best if you aren't confining in poor conditions or feeding them heavy to butcher in 12 weeks. medication IMO is an inudstry standard which folks who don't raise according to their standards [like .76 sq foot of space per bird?] don't nee dto follow their feeding standards...

don't worry about Mareks. unless you start buying too many birds form other people.

please plan to have a separate pen for those seramas. they are small, not cold hardy, and when you get ANY new birds they should be separate for 10-30 days...

By the time the Seramas arrive, we will have completed the construction of the new mobile chicken tractor. Seramas will go into the Eglu.

And yeah, new math. I think they call it algebra....(LOL)

For winter, we will make an insulated coop for the Seramas. Might house them with some other banties if that is OK. Gonna get heated water bowls and a heat lamp for the winter bantie house.

oh, no THAT looks more like statistical future algorithyms to me... WAY above algebra... you didn't assign any values LOL

We could never overvalue You, TF. And the name thing, I was so horrified I had to get it off my chest. Feeling much better now thanx. Of course it may have been hard on you...

Claire... my mind went to the exact same formula!

LOL just i just had a read of your shot gun name list tf

there are a lot of no no's arent there

did u have one of those aunt's that would grab hold of your cheek and change your name in every way possible to make it sound more baby or sumthin LOL

No Aunts. but ruthlessly teased...

tf

Soooo sorry TF.

I never meant to be quite that bad...I could never bring myself to actually use the whole thing (you'll notice I never could bring myself to type it all) If I adopt enough chickens will you forgive me?

no harm done. i was a tough kid, but i am tougher now plus don't give a rats behind, and understand that is how the world goes round LOL...

my username IS long, why i shortened it...

how much room do you have? i can put in a good word fo ryou with the CF...