ok, are you sure she wants her head petted or is she nudgeing/butting you
New Goat Owner 101 Questions
She comes over when I sit down and stands in front of me. If I don't start to pet her head, she gets closer, and closer, and closer, until she sort of gently rests the top of her head on my hand. I scritch her for a while, and if I stop, she repeats. She hasn't butted yet. She just rests it there. She also licks behind my knees.
frans530,
When they're in heat you'll see a thick mucous coming from their errr parts (dmail me if you need me to be more explicit). Also they wag their tails (holding them up high) really fast to signal to males that they're receptive.
My 9 month old is in heat right now. I just got back from a goat show. She was in a pen with my Angel. They had a one year old buck on their left and a younger buck on their right. The older one tried to jump over the partition and the younger one tried to crawl under! They had to move the older one further from my girls and put some bred does there instead LOL.
My 9 month old Bravo took a 3rd place ribbon but Silent Angel (14 month old) took a blue ribbon and a Reserved Grand Champion! Judge said as Bravo matures she'll be very good!
I'm exhausted but thrilled. Tomorrow we'll go to attend some seminars and then bring them back.
MollyD
Good job Molly!!!
Thanks for the info.. understand the "parts" I think she hasn't gone there yet... no signs and definitly not what you discribe..
To bad I am not into meat goats.. I might have to make an effort to head that way next year instead of west.
You keep going and before we know it you'll have the meat goat market cornered for the east coast!
Share what you learn at the seminars... always waiting to learn
Thanks frans530!
Back from the seminars. This morning the judge went over some of the bucks/does/wethers that either won or placed to show us their strong points and their weak ones. For a show Boer they want the body from the top to look like a long rectangle, from the side like a box. In front they the brisket should form a straight line instead of a V. In terms of the jaw the gums should line up with the teeth meeting the upper gum evenly, not behind or in front of it. Now these things apply to Boers, not other breeds of goats. I don't know their standards.
Seems that in Texas and the southwest there is a huge market for wethers because there are cash prizes for the winners. Nothing like that here so only bucks that aren't wanted here are wethered. There they wether top quality bucks and charge dearly for them. Over $3000. in some cases!!
We also talked about marketing, how to and who to.
MollyD
Hey Molly, don't you love how nutty they act when they are in heat!! And sooo lovey-dovey!
Sethought, those are all excellent breeds! My personal fav is the oberhaasli-such a laid back loving personality! But it's a personal choice! When you decide on a breed, check out how that breed should look.
Just don't fall in love with a goat until you have thoroughly checked it out to make sure it's sound. You are looking for milk production not a pet!
First I would check out the dams and sires milk records(milk production is passed down). Check out the dam's udder-is it nice and rounded and well-attached or is abit saggy. How big are her teats? Too small makes it harder to milk. When buying a doeling, check out her stance-make sure she has a nice appearance from behind. Her stance should be wide for good udder attachment and her legs should be straight not turned in. The reason this is important: udders can actually sag down and the teats can be damaged. I met a goat owner who tried to sell me a doe whose udder was hanging so low that her teats were almost on the ground.
Check her teats as some have double on one side. If she kicks up a bit when you rub her udder it is tickling her. When you bring her home, make sure you rub it every day until she gets used to it and soon she'll stop kicking her feet as no-one wants a ticklish milking goat kicking her feet up and putting them into the milk bucket!
Check out the feet!! You want a nice square footing-lift up a foot to check if the owner has been keeping the hooves trimmed. Overgrown feet can deform and cripple an animal. Even kids at eight weeks should have already had their feet trimmed. Have the seller show you a quick demonstration on how to trim. You want a nice foot-narrow is no good! Feet need to be solid-check for hoof rot-
http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=675
Check for brightness in the eyes, liviness, check gums and eyelids-pale means worm infestation.
Run your hands over the goat, check to make sure there aren't any lumps or abcesses(although occassionally a small lump will form where it's been vaccinated-this will go away)
As I'm typing I found this website-pictures are worth a thousand words!
http://goatdairylibrary.org/Pages/Conformation.htm
Make sure her droppings aren't runny-she shouldn't have any remnants of poo stuck to her back end or down her legs.
Hope this isn't too overwhelming. I could go on for hours!!
Oh also ask if the animal has been vaccinated. Ask about what the animal is eating so you can continue with the same program. If you wish to change feed, it must be done gradually. This is a ruminate-they use bacteria to digest their food, sudden changes can result in diarrhea which can lead to dehydration.(a tablespoon of Pepto helps)
This message was edited Sep 30, 2008 9:51 AM
See Seth LOL I told you Sue would know the answers!
Sue I've got two does in heat and the three bucks are lined up at the fence with their tongues hanging out LOL Thank heavens for electric wire or they would be in there!!
Just got done doing hooves on two does. Took all morning cause one huge doe fought me every step of the way. I am so tired out!
MollyD
Sethought
Sep 30, 2008
Thank you, Saanansandy,
Will check alllll of those things! Im new to goats and need all the help I can get. Great web sites. I'll be cming back to re-visit them when I have more time.
Seth
Molly, Happy for you on your success at goat show!
Thanks Seth! I can't wait till spring when they start up again. I have some young bucks I'll be taking to the shows as well as some does next time.
MollyD
HeeHee! I can see those bucks with their tongues hanging out! Are the does cozying up to the fence where the bucks are? I can remember one doe, she couldn't stand the buck unless she was in heat! They'd walk the fence together back and forth with him nickering softly to her! Ahh, love! He was such a sweet buck. He weighed a good 150 and didn't have a mean bone in his body. I always had gloves with me so he could get a good scratch.
Molly do you have a stanchion? It may help when trimming hooves-give them something especially yummy for distraction. Before we got the stanchion, we would clip their colar onto the fence to limit how far they can go. Then using your body weight lean into them, bringing their hoof up between your knees. We've had does that you needed two people to trim their hooves. I'm glad that you persisted and even though she was stubborn you still trimmed her up. I've seen horribly disfigured feet on an otherwise beautiful animal. It seems the bucks are the most neglicated. It's so sad.
After your advice, sandy, on what I was doing wrong with my trimming I decided I was just a little too nervious to use a "cutter" to lob off what I thought was a pad.. it gave me the willies, so what I did was take out the ol dremel,.. thats how I do the dogs toenails,.. and I dremeled her hooves.. OH MY.. how easy.. I had her in her stand.. gave her a touch of hay and dremel we did.. only once did I get a little pin-hole.. thats what I like about the dremel.. you can really stop before it's too late. The negative is in the end, it is really hard to get a nice flat bottom.. that does have to come with a final file-ing.
Now to "fess" up to Molly after I gave her a rash of stuff... I really need my glasses, but couldn't figure out how to keep them on.. thats why I was laughing so hard at you!! so today I will tie my headgear on and finish her upper pad/hooves. lol
Next question.. I lock her in her milkstand everyday, feed her grain and touch her.. I groom her, touch her teats, wash her, whatever.. I am traing her for whatever I might need to do whan she is a big girl with big girl hooves..
I notice her teats have a lot of fuzzy hair on them.. should this be trimmed with sissors, just washed.. or shaved on a regular grooming schedule? If so, I would really like to start now and get her use to it.
Grooming her tail... she has hair going ever which way... do you trim her tail smooth to itself.. making a nice nub verses this hairy spaze?
Is the fuzzy hair coming down from her udder and covering her teats?
I kept mine trimmed with dog trimmers: under the belly, udder, the back of the legs(not to the skin, mind you!) and give the tail a squared-off trim(just so it doesn't look all bony!) This way there was less hair to worry about getting into your milk pail. I always brush their coat before milking to help remove any loose hairs or debris from falling off while milking. Some goats don't like the sound of clippers but if she didn't mind the dremel she should be fine. Scissors always make me nervous!
I love the use of the dremel to trim her hooves! It must have made a quick job. My DH would use his jacknife while I use rose bush trimmers and a file.
Hi Sue,
Yes we do. I made it myself but Milly is such a big doe it had a hard time restraining her. I ended up making a halter from a rope (around her muzzle, then around her jaw) and typing her head up higher. We need to buy a metal one since this one won't hold a big buck. Milly tops the scale at about 150. Took me over an hour just to do her. She kept using her considerable weight to try and push me away. My hands aren't very strong so holding her hooves is difficult when she yanks them but I did win the battle ^_^. With Bonnie it's easier since she's a lightweight (around 100 pounds) and she loves her food. She munched where Milly refused to eat and instead focused on trying to stop me. I'm dreading the bucks! Paul has to help me with them. We're suppose to start Friday morning on them.
frans530 LOL what color twine will you be using? I had a bright blue green color on mine! LOL
MollyD
Not sure yet Molly, but you can bet it will be bright! I love bright colors.
we can tell people it's a new fad! LOL
Here is Stella's fuzzy tail.. I will trim her tomorrow.. today I was painting the trim on her house.. tomorroe she moves in.
not sure how I doubled this.. but I did so lets get over it and move on, LOL, maybe I should have had my glasses on?
This message was edited Oct 1, 2008 6:13 PM
LOL have you been seeing double lately? I only do after a few glasses of wine!!
MollyD
yup.. lol
OK, now for my little house:
Here is the back view, we put in a bunk, Stella likes to sleep on things, so we thought maybe a bunkbed.. I think we should add an inch of trim so she won't roll out.. hehe, specially if the dog is sleeping on the floor with her.
Anyway there is an insulated, sided back that pops on to match the rest.. it comes off for easy clean up.. and rescue.
There will be no eating in bed.. we are building a covered porch which will have a hay holder and I feed all grain on the milker.. I should make an old fashioned water trough huh??? dh will say I am pushing...lol
THAT is adorable! LOL Looks like a dollhouse. Mine would be so jealous (if they could squeeze through the door! LOL Little heifers!)
MollyD
I was a little worried about the door, but if need be we can enlarge, but I measured her Mom and Sisters from former breeding and dad.. he might be tight, but everyone else can get through.. and the dog thats well over 100 fat pounds can get through..and plop down.. it is bigger that the igloo doorway...
So keeping my fingers crossed... can you tell you hit on my only reservation.
Goats are quite flexible so she should do just fine! They've got so much curiosity about everything that I doubt she'll balk at going through it. My two big girls use to get into the dog kennel at the same time! It was a sight to behold! LOL
Sue I forgot to answer your question about the bucks. They do stand by the fence ogling all that feminine beauty but since there are electric wires on both sides of the welded wire no one gets too close LOL. Mom's birth control method at work!!!
I have noticed that my bucks are way nicer than my does. They have mock battles with each other but it's all in good fun. The does have real nasty fights till someone gives in. They rest and it starts all over again and they mean for it to hurt!
MollyD
too cute!
Yup! There can only be one Queen! They've got their pecking order just like the chickens! We would have to make sure we milked the girls in the proper order or there'd be an upset doe!
what interesting advice.. I never thought of respecting their pecking order.. I was thinking since I was king pecker I decide who eats first..
I am NOT questioning you Sandy... It just never occured to me to look at it from that point of view... I guess it's a lucky thing I don't have more than one goat right now.. at least the chickens forget real fast and don't hold a grudge or I would really be creating mass havock in the coop.
wow.. gonna go dwell on this......
Sue have you ever seen a goat extend that pecking order to other animals? My queen doe Bonnie attacked Aysel the pup when I tried to put her in with them the other day. She did this before too when we first got her. I moved Aysel to the bucks but I really want to use her with the does because Sonny (the male guardian) chases any goat that runs including kids so I don't want him around them. With the bucks they will turn and challenge him if he becomes a problem or let him play with them (they're the same size as him except for Chip who is slightly larger). I had to move Sonny when I brought Bravo and Angel home on Monday. Bravo was new so when Bonnie attacked her as expected Bravo ran and Sonny gave chase scaring her even more. So he got moved over to the bucks where he can't cause havoc but now Aysel can't be with the does either. Bonnie wasn't playing with Aysel either. She meant to kill her. The first time she kept throwing her into the electric fence. This time she had her against a wall and kept butting her really hard in the stomach. Aysel is only 3 months old so she can't take that kind of punishment. I had to get her out of there real fast. I had never heard of a doe feeling threatened by a mere pup.
MollyD
She's probably looking at her as a predator instead of protector. If any coyotes or foxes come around her, she'll give 'em a run for their money. I had a ewe like that. My springer would help us round up the sheep. That is until Bandit was about 8 months old. She would chase after Abby and one day she cornered her in the barn. Thank goodness I was there because her intentions were also deadly. That was the last time Abby would go the pasture or barn!
Here's a pic of Bandit and her lamb:
But she has no trouble with the other dog Sonny! Just this little one.
MollyD
Must be something that she doesn't care for. Bandit just didn't like any dogs. Maybe someone who has the guardian dogs can give some advice. I'm trying to think of other DGer's that have them. We've never had any guardian dogs. I've read some articles on training but it's been quite awhile. If I find those acticles I'll let you know.
My does would just stamp their feet at my dogs. Although they would go after the cats-run after them and bite their tails! Also, Sandy(my saanan/alpine) would go after the sheep. She would run them ragged: around and around in circles. I had to separate them. She was the Queen of my does, too.
Sue
I find that aside from her sister Milly there isn't really anyone on 4 legs that Bonnie likes! She was good with her twins but now I suspect she would fight with them. They're just bucks to her now. She attacks any doe that comes into her reach. No friends aside from Milly.
In order to be sure that Bravo and Angel don't spend the night out in the rain I've been shutting them in a pen where Bonnie and Milly can't get at them. It was suppose to pour all day so I left them in it till a little while ago when I saw the sun shinning. I cut some tree branches and when I left all 4 were munching a short distance from each other.
Tomorrow I go to pick up Daisy and Dixie (not selected yet!) who will be about 6 months old. I'm a bit worried about them. I'm hoping that Angel and Bravo (who is 9 months) will let them into their group so they can all be housed together.
Milly did not give birth so we're assuming she did not conceive. Her earliest due date was Sept 13th with October 10th her last possible due date. She has not bagged up or grown any around the middle so we're assuming she isn't expecting.
Just before Halloween we plan to breed Angel with Chip, then two weeks late Milly with Chip and finally Bonnie with Chip. Bravo won't be bred till after Jan when she's a year old. She too will be bred with Chip. None of the does I have now can be bred to my other two bucks cause some like Angel are their aunt and some like Bravo are their half sisters. My next job is to obtain at least two does totally unrelated to the boys. Jim has a pair of percentage doelings that fit this but they were just born so it's at least a year before I could mate them!
Don't know what it is about Aysel that Bonnie doesn't like. She doesn't bark at her or chase her. She's very submissive towards the goats.
MollyD
Could it be her youth and immaturity? A lot of animals are less patient with, or will try to put puppies in their place. My does did not put up with the younger border collie until she grew up. Once Sugar was grown they no longer had a problem with her, though the lead doe still doesn't want her close to the herd. And she has NEVER chased them or done anything besides mind her own business or chase that stinkin' fox we had a while back. Is there a way to keep Aysel near them without putting them together? To let them get to know each other? I forget what you said you've done with her thus far...
Aysel is with Sonny and the bucks. The does can see her through the fence. The bucks will be moved to another pasture hopefully before cold weather sets in and there they can still see Aysel but not as close as she is now.
Poor Ayself hasn't done a thing to the does or the bucks. She's been a very good girl. Immaturity is her only fault but Sonny is only 6 months old though he looks like a full grown dog.
Unfortunately this leaves the does without the protection of even her scent.
MollyD
Sugar never did either. I assumed with mine that they just didn't trust one so young to behave. Perhaps seeing her with Sonny will help long term.
Viz protection. You might try scent marking the perimeter if you have any males to do it. (DH refused to accommodate me on this one but others have supposedly used this successfully)
ROFL! I'll see if Paul will cooperate on this!
MollyD
Trust me.. It works...If he won't go outside, have him go in a bucket and pout it around the perimeter....
Why can't Sonny go in with the does and leave Aysel in with the bucks??
Sonny likes to chase any goat that runs. He was chasing Bravo who didn't know him. Tomorrow we're getting two young does who won't know him and will run so he can't be in there. He also isn't trustworthy around small kids.
MollyD
Welll Sonny is just a naughty boy!! LOL
LOL well he is only 6 months old. He's got another year and a half of puppyhood ahead of him.
MollyD