PLEASE READ!

I can see that you are not going to let this die, so it is time for us to let the cat out of the bag.

As I have mentioned before, Dave and I have been brainstorming about ways to make DG pay for itself, as well as benefit our members.

We want to open up a Dave's Garden Store. In the store members will sell their wares: plants, seeds, trees, shrubs, crafts, garden tools, anything you want to sell. DG will divide the profits with the member in a 80/20 split. 80% to the person selling the item, 20% to DG. You get to set the price, you will ship out your own product. DG will mail you a check once per month along with an receipt showing what you sold.

Here's what we need from the members:
Tell me what you have to sell, and how much you wish to sell it. It would be best if you had a picture. I will be in charge of this "venture", as Dave is hard at work keeping everything going for us.

Most importantly what we need for you to do is to draw traffic to the store. I know that on "other websites" you can't advertise, so best to stay away from them, but tell everyone you know, and tell people on all bulletin boards to check it out. I think this is a great idea, because people will be able to order plants and seeds from their own zone. We will work together to decide the proper number of seeds to send, and what the shipping costs will be.

Now, I'd like to have the store up and running in 2 weeks. I need all of you to tell me what you have that you could sell. I know you guys have tons of plants and seeds to sell, and there are wonderfully crafty people on the website, so this shouldn't be hard. Email me and let me know, and I'll be setting up your account.

We've been sitting on this for quite some time now, and I can't wait to get started. YOU are the only reason this will work, so lets do it together!!

Trish

Hmmmm, I can see how the crafts end works, I guess I wonder about some aspects, i.e. most people accept sase's for seeds.

I guess some people just aren't interested in trading (perish the thought) and may just want to buy seeds or plants, but the logistics...the standards...etc. No small undertaking (you, of course, have my support - better buy a hot tub for stress)

You say you need some seeds, huh? :)

Trish,

That sounds great!!!! I have tons of crafts that I wholesale in Detroit. Been doing it for the past 10 years. Hopefully It will help you out and maybe help me out too!

I love the idea of selling seeds too. I collect TONS of seeds. BUT could I please plead with everyone not to do seeds trades with members just so you can sell the seeds. A lot of us freely give seeds away and it just wouldn't sit right with me knowing I traded or SASEd someone seeds so they could sell them. I think it could affect seed and plant trading here at DG.
So PLEASE only sell what you collect.

I have been telling lots of people about DG. Everytime I do a trade with someone at GW I try to talk them into joining DG. About 10 told me they joined in the past 4 days.

When I go to plant swaps this spring and summer I am going to bring some small fliers or labels with DG's web address and a note about DG.
Sari

You both raise valid concerns.

There will always be trading on DG. The site got started this way, and all are encouraged to continue trading, including all the new people that will come.

It is only proper that only select, hand picked people be allowed to sell on DG. These people will be tried and true gardeners, those that we have come to trust. Selling on DG puts the seller, as well as Dave and me at risk. Reputations will be on the line. Both Dave and I will be deciding who can place merchandise up for sell. I think that this should mostly, if not totally, control trading for resale.

We think that the market for the products are not the current DG members, but but from people outside of DG who are looking for plants to buy. The benefit to buying from Dave's Garden is that you get seeds/plants from real people who grow this stuff, not from a company. Personal service, quality product.

As friendly and knowledgeable as our members are, we can make the best online catalog out there!

This is not a small undertaking, but think of the reward! People buy plants and seeds from Ebay. Some of those sellers clearly know nothing about their product. Come to a place that is run by Gardeners who know their product, know how to grow it, maybe even be able to purchase from someone from your own zone.

Thoughts, questions?

Trish

I have no questions, but rather some thoughts...

I'm glad that Sari and Rise brought concerns up, because they are two of the people I have in mind as prime candidates of sellers.

Here's how we see it working:

We setup a big catalog, across the board, of what we have to offer. It looks something like this:

1. Areas (Seeds, Plants, Gardening Merchandise, Crafts, and Miscellaneous)

2. Categories (each area has its own set of categories, so "Seeds" would have as categories "Annuals", "Perennials", "Shrubs", etc.

3. Availability (1-2 day, 3-4 day, 5-10 day, 11+ day, Not Currently Available)

Then, people can browse through these however they want (click on the Area, go to the category you want, and there is the list of products.)

It would look much like a regular internet store front.

Maintaining your own products would be very similar to maintaining your own journal (I'd make the interface for the seller very similar to the journal, to ease the learning curve).

When the customer comes and orders stuff, they give their credit card number to DG. The system automatically mails out each of the sellers who had product in that customer's cart, with instructions on what to send, where to send it, how much money these items made them, etc. The seller then hits a special page that lists the things they need to ship. They ship them and then let the site know that they were shipped.

An e-mail is then automatically generated to the customer that his order (or part of it) has been shipped.

At the end of the month, checks are cut from DG to each seller for their cut of the goods sold.

What does everyone think about these details so far?

dave

Amazingly wonderful! I sure hope I can help out in some form or fashion. Like many of us I'm sure I can offer seeds and plants (preferably plants)...also do "yard art" but worry about how many pieces I would have available at any given time. Also, Trish, the 2 week "up and running" sure is quick...ya'll don't mess around do ya!?

I think both Rise and Sari's concerns need some thought, and I'm not quite sure how well selling and trading seeds and plants will go together...no matter how experienced the gardener, your zone or not...buy, or receive for sase/trade? I understand you want to market towards people outside of DG but...once here they will probably become a member and join the trading forums.
Just some thoughts.
You undoubtedly have my support.

[ Removed by member request. - Admin ]

I'll start checking South Dakota restrictions, both ag and non-ag. As suprising as it sounds - this state is fiber-optically wired and into the e-commerce. I'm already registered with the City to do e-business from my home.

I will find out how city and state sales taxes apply (to products as opposed to services) and whether that is tied to e-commerce, where I can and can't mail ag products to and under what conditions. I probably better include the SD Health Dept in case someone comes up with herbed vinegar...

Here come the logistics - but what the heck - my last frost date isn't until May 7, lol!

Trish and Dave: I love it!!!!

I'd rather buy from DG's gardeners than unknown nurseries.
With newer gardeners like myself, I don't have much to offer in trades (seeds); but, those seeds that I do have - I have tons of because I can't bear not to save them.

However, I do have lots of plants, cuttings of shrubs, roses, tropicals, fruit trees, flowering trees, bulbs, etc., that I would love to root and sell. This is one thing that I can do well, lol.

A wonderful idea - you go girl!
Grits

Now you've all made me cry.....

PLEASE- we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings! You all cannot possibly know how much it means to us that you are willing to do these things for us. We truly are very blessed, and it is our pleasure to be here!!!! In fact, it is because of YOU that we are here!

Dave is ordering a new server, and it should be here soon.

It all comes down to this: Dave and I could not sleep a wink at night knowing that you all gave us money for something that we could get ourselves. You are all such kind and wonderful people, and we would just feel absolutely guilty about it.

This "prize patrol" idea just touched my heart. This is something that Dave and I cannot get for ourselves. It is one of those things that cannot be bought.

If you want to _help_ DG, please think about the storefront, and growing the site with more wonderful people like yourselves.

I know many of you want to show your thanks with things from yourselves that money cannot buy, and words cannot express. If you would like to continue with this plan, we would be thrilled. We are truly touched by the gesture, and wouldn't even try to stop you.

I'm going to let this drop now, with one last thought:
The kindness you've shown is rare in this world, and a true pleasure to see. Please don't be offended that we can't accept monetary gifts, but know that gifts from the heart are the things in life that truly matter. If you so choose to shower us with your thanks.......sssshhhhhhh- I don't know a thing!

(still wiping tears)
Trish

Trish: Sounds like a great idea! I am definitely interested in participating, not only with seeds and plants to sell, but garden related merchandise as well. Please advise how and where to send a list of my my items for possible inclusion in Dave's Store.

Several people are concerned about the "seeds for a SASE-for members" who in turn may sell them. May I suggest that all current members (up to the time Daves Store opens) have a "separate page-with a specific password" where they can swap seeds/plant starts for a SASE if they choose, only trading among the current members. Members who do not want to think of the possibility that someone would in turn, sell their "free" seeds, should provide their seed/plant list to be included "for sale" in "Dave's Store", and remove themselves from the seed swap.

I wanted to know if you will only be accepting credit card payments for things bought? My husband and I do not use or have credit cards but I already know I will want to buy from here and would have to pay with moneyorders. Will I be able to do this? PLEASE say yes.

All: I don't normally disagree, but to start out the new program suspecting that folks are going to be dishonest just doesn't sit right somehow.

I think the honor system works, and works well. When you become exclusionary - the life and spirit of the Garden will leave. Sure, there will be some who take advantage, but they will become recognizable very quickly.
Don't mean to offend,
Grits

Grits, I'm with you - the honor system is alive and well among the vast majority of gardeners. And the small percent who are dishonest tend to get "weeded" out over time (pun intended.)

For all practical purposes, I think most of us who trade are not dealing in quantities large enough to turn around and sell. And if someone was coming in and "swiping" seeds for trade in order to sell them....well, I figure we'd probably recognize "our" traded seeds in the storefront area, and would make a mental note to decline to trade with that person in the future.

I don't see the storefront as diminishing the robust trading of seeds that currently takes place. Many of us will probably buy interesting seeds from the storefront, use some of the seeds and trade the rest, or trade the seeds we gather after the growing season - much the same way we obtain the seeds we trade currently.

Dave and Trish, you're in our thoughts and prayers as you launch this endeavor...know we're rooting for you! And let us know where to send those plants and seeds.....I can see it now: as far as the eye can see, there's a line of FedEX, UPS and USPS trucks waiting their turn to drop off your packages from all the well-wishers!!! (hee hee)

Rise Ann- thanks for taking the time to look into these things for us- let me/us know what you find out.
As far a sales tax, I think that we'll only have to charge tax to those who buy from TN, since that is where the company is located.

Trish

Vannessa- Yes, I'm sure that you'll be able to order without a credit card. We'll make it so you can print out your order, send it in with your money, and then the item will be shipped out to you, it will just take a little longer.

Regarding the "honor system":
Dave and I will be carefull who places seeds and plants up for sale. We want the serious gardeners who know their plants, and can answer questions about them. We would like to possibly be able to see a picture of the plant that you grew and are trying to sell before you are able to sell them. You are correct that we'll not be able to catch every single person who is taking advantage of the system, but I don't think there will be many. Those who are serious enough to sell will most likely have more than one packet of seeds, if not, I would be looking closely at why they don't. I can check to see previous trades that people have done, when they became members, check the Journal (if public), that kind of thing. We will be trusting our members, but at the same time, it won't be a free-for-all on the storefront.

Lets keep the dialog on this open, all suggestions and comments are always welcome.

Trish

Trish et als,

I think the idea of somebody selling seeds they have traded for is a tempest in a teapot.

First off, there ain't that many sorry souls here at DG for it ever to make a matter.

Second, and more important. You cannot offer something for sale and only have one of them. People don't patronize stores like that. So the idea of somebody offering one packet of something should be a red flag to begin with.

Next, in each category of living thing---seeds, cuttings, plants, whatever, there should be two minimum numbers. The first is the minimum number that's available for sale: ten packets of seed; a dozen cuttings; whatever the shopkeeper (that you and Dave, Trish) decide is a fair amount of stock to offer. The second minimum is the number included for each sale: 25 seeds per packet; 3 cuttings; six seedlings; whatever.

To my mind, this eliminates the logistics nightmare of having an inventory of great breadth but little depth, and avoids the kind of unethical practice being discussed.

Ah, Brook, you are hearing me loud and clear!!
I also don't think that we have "sorry souls" to worry about. I trust all of you as much as you trust us. The only thing: I would _assume_ that if you say you have 10 packets of such and such seed, and you actually _do_ have 10 packets. Thus, the double checks in place.

Regarding the "fair amount of stock to offer"- this is something that I would like us all to agree on before hand. If you buy a packet of seeds, how many would you expect to get? Same for seedlings, cuttings- lets get the ground rules going- I'm going to start a new thread on this, so please reply about this there.

Trish

I think this is a wonderful idea first of all. It's great that there will be no membership fee and no merchant account costs and that credit cards will be accepted. I do have a concern however. I don't know about the rest of you, but I know I would find it very difficult in the beginning at least to from all the postage to send items other than a bit of seed. When you start getting into heavier items and sending out hopefully lots of them then the cost can begin to hurt if you have to wait 3-4 weeks for reimbursement. Would it be possible/feasable to cut checks twice a month? Even every third week would help. I would love to sell some things on the storefront but I know I would have difficulty if I had to wait that long and I would haate to put my reputation or DG's (Dave & Trish) reputation in jeopardy by not having the money all of a sudden to ship something out right away due to not having the money. I wonder what the praticality of setting up individual PayPal accounts would be for each merchant and possibly paying us that way on a more frequent basis. Don't misunderstand me. I would love to get a larger check once a month. It is just most important to know that I am able to afford to produce and ship my items though.

Other than that one issue, I can't wait. I already have plans to sell at a new farmers and crafters market that I am the market master for this summer. It would be great to extend that very small business a little.

Angel

While I love the idea of a "Gardener's Store Run by Gardeners", I forsee some major problems in dealing with the agricultural restrictons that abound in this country. Most of the SE cannot ship containerized plants outside the region due to restrictions about fireant contamination. Michigan has problems with moths and snails. Every state has a long list of regulations that must be abided by. Just look at how many professional nurseries will not even ship to CA because of the stringent requirements. Nurseries that are licensed by the states for interstate shipping must have agricultural inspections, and must certify that their container plants are fumigated before shipping. Bareroot stock is subject to less regulation, but it is still subject to some. Technically home gardeners must also follow the agricultural restrictions, and we should want to, as they are in place to protect the plants that we cherish so much. Unfortunately, many of the chemicals that are required to be used for fumigant purposes are restricted use pesticides, and the homeowner has no way of obtaining them if they were to attempt to be in compliance with regulations.

I don't think any of you would want to risk federal fines or charges because you want to sell some of your excess plants. However, unless you are a certified nursery, you risk that very thing. Auctions only marginally limit the liability of the intermediary, and do not at all protect the seller or the buyer from federal or state charges. Despite "disclaimers" in place claiming to only be a "conduit" between buyer and seller, E-bay is just biding it's time before it's first lawsuit about an imported pest from one of their sellers auctions escaping and causing havoc.

Another point. Tennessee is one state that collects sales tax on every type of sales transaction in the state, whether the buyer is out of state or not. So far, it has been up to the state to knock on the door and demand it, but with the current fiscal crisis, the enforcement of that statute is becoming more of a reality to have to deal with. I believe it was Lands End that just came to a milliion dollar lawsuit/fines settlent with the state for that very reason. Not that collecting a sales tax is terribly burdensome to a registered and licenesed business that is set up to do it properly, but it is a disincentive to many customers to see that they will be charged an additional 8%.

I'm not trying to be a killjoy here, just to present some facts that you may have overlooked. Selling plants sounds like such a wonderful idea, until you run into all of the red tape that surrounds it. Regulations discourage even the small greenhouse grower from attmpting to go "professional" within their own region. Too many boxes to check.

I think these issues can be addressed by each individual/small business doing their homework with the proper authorities. If a standard form was drawn up with a checklist that covered the various liability points and proper documentation provided then I think it could work. This is a prime reason why we as a group should work with a cosultant through an agency such as SCORE and SBA. It is going to take a lot of work to get this going, however if done correctly from the start then it can really work. Maybe a two week window for selling live product is pushing it at this point, however it can always be phased in as we learn more about the regulations and restrictions.

Angel

If you can work through all of the logistics of this, I think it's a wonderful idea. Although I trade a lot, I also buy a lot. I wonder if it would be workable to have a Canadian part of this, since I know many of us in Dave's garden are across the border. Chooch in particular seems to know a massive amount about plants and grow a large number of rare items. I'm expanding like crazy every year and love the idea of some sort of business, if only for fun. I have 26 kinds of heirloom tomatoes as well as all kinds of herbs and perennials, for example. Keep working on this. Surely it can be done!

This sounds wonderful.....I'm sure all of the small bugs can be worked out.You have my total support and I would love to join in. I am growing heirlooms and would love to be able to give others the opportunity to experience the colorful diversity.Please consider me with them ,and I also have some really quality craft items too.

I love the idea about being able to sell crafts ( how garden related do they have to be?Can it be gardeners making them?) Most of the garden traders that I have kept in touch with are also doing crafting-generally as a small side business. I have a question about the seeds. When I trade seeds, I try to remember to indicate that I got the seeds from such and such plant, but making mention that the plant probably was a hybrid and that the new plants might not look the same. I may be being way too careful, as it has been a loooooooooong time since I took Horticulture 101. I just do not want people to be disappointed in what I send.

Marcia,you are right about the hybrids.The chance that they will grow out true are virtually nil.

People need to be aware of this. Unless you have hybridized the plant yourself,the customer is going to be dissapointed.
If you collect seed from say,Burpee's Early Girl tomatoes and plant them the next season,they will not be Early Girls.
From what I have learned from gardeners who are more than anxious to share this knowledge,research your plant and make sure it is open pollinated before saving the seed.

Also,cross pollination is something you have to be aware of if you grow more than one type of a plant.Some plants have hardly any cross-pollination sensitivity,and others need careful isolation to be assured of true to type seed.

I think I would be most interested in selling plants. They can be quite a bit of trouble to dig, package and ship as compared to the relative ease of collecting seeds. I will have some hostas, both a complete green type and some variegated types. I don't know their species name though.

I like the idea of this, but the possible complications give me a stomach ache! I have been toying with the idea of doing some selling - I always start way more than I need - and I also do 'garden related' crafts, wreaths, etc. And, I am a photographer and a poet with a couple of small books.

There are the USDA regs, slong with all of the states to wade through, and the fact that while seeds can cross the border, plants cannot, BUT I think that there is a definite "DOABLENESS" about this and I would be willing and happy to participate.

Kathleen
ps Trish and Dave, when I say I ahve lots of ogrs, I mean lots. If your looking for 'carefree roses,' let me know.

I'm looking forward to creation of this new adventure.
I'll do anything to help out.
I dont think that the few people who might try to get seeds on a SASE and then turn around and try to sell them would get away with it.

Good luck, and please let me know if there is anything I can do to help out.

Best regards
Pebble

Trish and Dave,
I love the idea of a DG "store" and support you wholeheartedly. I've already clued in our two gardening clubs here to your wonderful on-line trade/SASE and information sources. CA is a bear to get plants into, so good luck! Let me know how I can help you start up!
New Kid on the Block,
Morninglory

The real work of setting this up give me a stomach ache as someone called Kathleeen sais above. I started a small company last yr..it is a lot harder and more expensive than you think. There is such a thin line between somethings worth and what it actually costs to produce and ship.
Keep track, pay taxes of some sort, I still have my pile of stuff to sort out...Shivers..but i do think it can work. Call me an optimist, You would not be the first. e

The project gives me a headache too, but fear not! Dave and I are no strangers to hard work. We are also no strangers to running a business, we have a couple under our belt already.

With the support and enthusiasm shown by the members, I'm sure that it will work!

Trish